Decline in Pilot Salaries Survey
A post from 'big brother' in the 'JetStar NZ pilots vote for industrial action' thread, which gives a different point of view regarding 'the pilot shortage
I was please that I doubled my pay by going from LHS turbo prop to RHS jet. Then I found I was working twice as hard, a 50 hour a month freight job with 40 hours night became a 90 hour a month job with 40 hours night.
After a year or two when the novelty wears off a bit people start looking more at the whole picture, THEN the complaining really starts.
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I think this discussion has two perspectives. One perspective is from the Australian pilot market viewpoint and the other is from the Global viewpoint.
That there is a shortage of experienced heavy metal pilots globally, I think is beyond dispute. Boeing is saying it, Airbus is saying it, Middle Eastern Airlines are saying it and Industry associations are saying it.
Will that shortage impact on Australia? Probably not because the average Australian pilot is reluctant to travel within Australia, let alone overseas, and will generally accept inferior conditions to work in Australia.
So for those willing to forgo a future in Australia, there is probably going to be a significant amount of choice, but that choice will potentially come with the price of being a global nomad for the rest of your career.
The supply/demand equation is probably always going to be a bit skewed against us in Australia because we produce a relative high number of pilots for relatively few positions. It is a different story in the Middle East, Asia and the Far East. That is where the shortage is/will be, and that is probably where the money will be.
Having said that, I am supremely confident that the "responsible" regulators will change the rules, lower experience levels and generally turn a blind eye to safety in the pursuit of economic growth. So for me the question is not "is there a shortage?", but rather "will the shortage lead to better conditions for anyone?"
That there is a shortage of experienced heavy metal pilots globally, I think is beyond dispute. Boeing is saying it, Airbus is saying it, Middle Eastern Airlines are saying it and Industry associations are saying it.
Will that shortage impact on Australia? Probably not because the average Australian pilot is reluctant to travel within Australia, let alone overseas, and will generally accept inferior conditions to work in Australia.
So for those willing to forgo a future in Australia, there is probably going to be a significant amount of choice, but that choice will potentially come with the price of being a global nomad for the rest of your career.
The supply/demand equation is probably always going to be a bit skewed against us in Australia because we produce a relative high number of pilots for relatively few positions. It is a different story in the Middle East, Asia and the Far East. That is where the shortage is/will be, and that is probably where the money will be.
Having said that, I am supremely confident that the "responsible" regulators will change the rules, lower experience levels and generally turn a blind eye to safety in the pursuit of economic growth. So for me the question is not "is there a shortage?", but rather "will the shortage lead to better conditions for anyone?"
And because Management reckon that we live in 'paradise' we will continue to be paid peanuts. And most of us will accept peanuts.
VA 737 Captains are on upwards of $190K
VA Ejet Captains are on upwards of $140K
Tiger Captains upwards of $180K but pay for parking and uniform.
Even Jetstar Captains are on >$150K
Qantas >$220K
Alliance >$125K
Cobham>$145K
Skywest >$142K
In the turboprop world Metro drivers are on >$70K
Dash 8 guys on >$100K
Please tell me if these figures are out by more than 5%, I am sure someone will.
Do you really call these figures peanuts? If so compared to what? CX A scale? Emirates perhaps?
Salaries should be considered relative to what was being paid in the past.In the 80's the union was strong,seniority prevailed,job security was good,a career paths existed,airlines were relatively viable and stable.My salary was $90K as a turbo-prop checkie.This equates to a $175K today,so therein lies the salary comparison of what the job used to be and what it is today,There is no comparison,and that's without mentioning other T&C's.
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Even Jetstar Captains are on >$150K
mate rates
I'm not so sure you want the cost of living and normal day to day items to increase in the same way you expect your salary to appreciate.
Following on from your calculations your twin driver will be on $308,700 in another 30 years and fairly close to half a million next century.
Your $39 fares to Sydney may also disappear.
Look if the past is our only point of perspective then no amount of negotiating with our respective companies will satisfy those stuck in the 60's,70's,80's,90's.
I can only talk about what our negotiators (VB) have achieved and yes it has been a two step forward one step back process but the end result for the VA group of pilots has been a steady and continual improvement to our terms and conditions. The majority are pretty happy with where we are at the moment and are optimistic that a fair EBA will be negotiated at the end of the year.
I don't and have not ever looked back at what I earned in Ansett prior to '89.
Icarus2001 has a valid point which I tried to highlight earlier - one that there are reasonbly well paid jobs in Australia despite the protestations of some who just don't want to see the reality.
Yes there is room for a lot of improvement in GA and Regional but lets have a balanced view of what we have in Australia.
Glass is still half full
I'm not so sure you want the cost of living and normal day to day items to increase in the same way you expect your salary to appreciate.
Following on from your calculations your twin driver will be on $308,700 in another 30 years and fairly close to half a million next century.
Your $39 fares to Sydney may also disappear.
Look if the past is our only point of perspective then no amount of negotiating with our respective companies will satisfy those stuck in the 60's,70's,80's,90's.
I can only talk about what our negotiators (VB) have achieved and yes it has been a two step forward one step back process but the end result for the VA group of pilots has been a steady and continual improvement to our terms and conditions. The majority are pretty happy with where we are at the moment and are optimistic that a fair EBA will be negotiated at the end of the year.
I don't and have not ever looked back at what I earned in Ansett prior to '89.
Icarus2001 has a valid point which I tried to highlight earlier - one that there are reasonbly well paid jobs in Australia despite the protestations of some who just don't want to see the reality.
Yes there is room for a lot of improvement in GA and Regional but lets have a balanced view of what we have in Australia.
Glass is still half full
Can you tell me which airline in Australia pays peanuts?
A Skywest captain in Perth with it's mining boom house prices and a wife at home looking after two pre school children will find his $2000 a week after tax doesn't go that far.
The same applies to a QANTAS captain living in Sydney with an ex wife to support as well as a new family.
You'll find the pay rates quoted don't look so great when compared to other professions which had similar incomes to airline pilots back in the 1970/1980s.
Kieth Nash,
I dont think there is a shortage at all, even on a global scale.
If there was a shortage of pilots, why would Cathay reduce the salary and housing allowance that they offer new SO's.
Never has been, never will be a shortage of pilots.
I would never recommend to someone to become a pilot. The job is great, but the industry is a nightmare that continually tries to screw you.
I dont think there is a shortage at all, even on a global scale.
If there was a shortage of pilots, why would Cathay reduce the salary and housing allowance that they offer new SO's.
Never has been, never will be a shortage of pilots.
I would never recommend to someone to become a pilot. The job is great, but the industry is a nightmare that continually tries to screw you.
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Lemel and others who think there is not a shortage of qualified/experienced crew, may need to look abit beyond their noses.
There is a shortage ...Right now and getting worse. Airlines, especially in Asia are parking airframes against the fence due to not having the required crew(Garuda/Tiger, I won't go on). This current batch of (mis)managers have not foreseen this, refuse to admit it and seek cadetships to try to fill voids and use all types of excuses to cover up their inabilities.
PS Cathay are 200 pilots short right now! Thai/Garuda/Tiger/Air Asia/MAS/PAL/Jstar/PB/ANZ/Skippers/Skywest/APNG/ANG PLUS the Bizjet scene ALL req crew, not to mention the US, India & Eastern block countries! Broaden your scope, people!
There is a shortage ...Right now and getting worse. Airlines, especially in Asia are parking airframes against the fence due to not having the required crew(Garuda/Tiger, I won't go on). This current batch of (mis)managers have not foreseen this, refuse to admit it and seek cadetships to try to fill voids and use all types of excuses to cover up their inabilities.
PS Cathay are 200 pilots short right now! Thai/Garuda/Tiger/Air Asia/MAS/PAL/Jstar/PB/ANZ/Skippers/Skywest/APNG/ANG PLUS the Bizjet scene ALL req crew, not to mention the US, India & Eastern block countries! Broaden your scope, people!
Last edited by Chocks Away; 22nd Sep 2011 at 07:46.
I think you are kind of skewing the argument here in that for an Australian to work overseas outside of Cathay or the Middle East you need Jet command time.
Since that in Australia takes roughly around 15ish years from your first flight to get that experience most people don't want the hassle of moving again. GA and or the Air Force is enough hassle for anyone without having to go through it all again in a country where English isn't spoken. No foreign airline is going to take 21 year old 200 hour Australian pilots and park them in the RHS of a 777. The other problem is Europe who don't have all the BS GA to wade through so jet experience is much faster and easier to come by.
Since that in Australia takes roughly around 15ish years from your first flight to get that experience most people don't want the hassle of moving again. GA and or the Air Force is enough hassle for anyone without having to go through it all again in a country where English isn't spoken. No foreign airline is going to take 21 year old 200 hour Australian pilots and park them in the RHS of a 777. The other problem is Europe who don't have all the BS GA to wade through so jet experience is much faster and easier to come by.
“Try buying a house in a capital city and raising two children”
Maybe its time pilots realized our lifestyle is based upon our salary, not the other way around.
“A Skywest captain in Perth with it's mining boom house prices and a wife at home looking after two pre school children will find his $2000 a week after tax doesn't go that far.”
Try renting. That’s what most of the worlds population does.
“The same applies to a QANTAS captain living in Sydney with an ex wife to support as well as a new family.”
Good grief. Silly market driven salary didn’t factor in a divorce.
“Since that in Australia takes roughly around 15ish years from your first flight to get that experience”
This comment is tongue in cheek I assume?
Maybe its time pilots realized our lifestyle is based upon our salary, not the other way around.
“A Skywest captain in Perth with it's mining boom house prices and a wife at home looking after two pre school children will find his $2000 a week after tax doesn't go that far.”
Try renting. That’s what most of the worlds population does.
“The same applies to a QANTAS captain living in Sydney with an ex wife to support as well as a new family.”
Good grief. Silly market driven salary didn’t factor in a divorce.
“Since that in Australia takes roughly around 15ish years from your first flight to get that experience”
This comment is tongue in cheek I assume?
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Pilots and engineers in high demand in Asia to meet surging traffic and fleet growth
Asia Pacific's booming aviation sector is facing a serious pilots shortfall resulting in some carriers reducing services and grounding new aircraft, Boeing said this week. Shortages are most acute in China, India, Indonesia and the Philippines. The worldwide aviation sector will require more than one million pilots and technicians by 2030, and the supply of these personnel is failing to keep up with demand. As the world's commercial fleet expands over the next 20 years, airlines will need to add 460,000 pilots and 650,000 maintenance technicians, according to Boeing’s Pilot and Technician Outlook released this month.
Source: Pilots and engineers in high demand in Asia to meet surging traffic and fleet growth | CAPA
Asia Pacific's booming aviation sector is facing a serious pilots shortfall resulting in some carriers reducing services and grounding new aircraft, Boeing said this week. Shortages are most acute in China, India, Indonesia and the Philippines. The worldwide aviation sector will require more than one million pilots and technicians by 2030, and the supply of these personnel is failing to keep up with demand. As the world's commercial fleet expands over the next 20 years, airlines will need to add 460,000 pilots and 650,000 maintenance technicians, according to Boeing’s Pilot and Technician Outlook released this month.
Source: Pilots and engineers in high demand in Asia to meet surging traffic and fleet growth | CAPA
Look at the productivity gains the companies have had since the 80's.This is where your $49 SYD-MEL fare should come from.Most airlines then were glad to get 500 hours a year out of a pilot.Now they have halved the salary and double the flying hours.If this is not exploitation of a passion I don't know what is!!There will always be wannabies prepared to be exploited, but where will the experience come from for the LHS longterm? This is where the shortage will occur.
It's all well and good to spruik all the Captains wages in Australia, feel free to post all the salaries from all the GA companies here.
The BEST paid job I'd had for 7 years was $23,800 - Fortunately the award is slightly higher now and I'm on about $48,000. I'm proud of the company I work for, but don't sit there and tell me everyone is getting more than peanuts.
As for that renting comment
The BEST paid job I'd had for 7 years was $23,800 - Fortunately the award is slightly higher now and I'm on about $48,000. I'm proud of the company I work for, but don't sit there and tell me everyone is getting more than peanuts.
As for that renting comment
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1960's Airline Pilot - Actually flew the aircraft, with minimal if any computer systems. Navigator required for longer flights which involves a degree of skill.
2011 Airline Pilot - Monitors the systems, computer fly's the aircraft and the GPS/INS etc. navigates.
As much as I hate to think about it, airline pilots are now 95% systems operator 5% hands on pilot. And this is how the public and management view the position. This is reflected by the modern day hiring practices of airlines around the world, cadetships take your young individuals who suit the role and place them in the cockpit after teaching them the basics of flying with a big emphasis on systems management and human factors. As a result your multi crew license was born.
From the perspective of one of the worlds largest mining companies, a big emphasis is placed on requirements of the crew's who operate smaller aircraft (B200) etc. because of the hands on nature of the flying which is conducted, they dont ask for 2000k TT + for the hell of it and even then we are seeing ever increasing levels of automation in these smaller aircraft. To attract this experience they do pay a premium in the market.
And yes I agree that the 1% of the time when something goes severely wrong in any aviation environment, the experience of the crew goes a long way. However the risk analysts have decided that its an acceptable risk to see what the systems operators can do in that situation.
Now train drivers make as much and in many cases more than half the captains salaries listed in the above post. Why is this? It is not supply and demand, there are plenty of punters who want the job. (look at all the train nuts out there)
I can only bring it back to the position and the degree of manual input and decision making by the driver. Put it this way a train that breaks in half is the most common incident in rail ops, with a significant cost to the company each time it occurs $500k - $1m + per incident in lost revenue. This is almost always attributed with driver error. With driver input having such an effect on bottom line it makes sense to pay them a high salary. (well that is the opinion of a general manager from one of our big miners)
2011 Airline Pilot - Monitors the systems, computer fly's the aircraft and the GPS/INS etc. navigates.
As much as I hate to think about it, airline pilots are now 95% systems operator 5% hands on pilot. And this is how the public and management view the position. This is reflected by the modern day hiring practices of airlines around the world, cadetships take your young individuals who suit the role and place them in the cockpit after teaching them the basics of flying with a big emphasis on systems management and human factors. As a result your multi crew license was born.
From the perspective of one of the worlds largest mining companies, a big emphasis is placed on requirements of the crew's who operate smaller aircraft (B200) etc. because of the hands on nature of the flying which is conducted, they dont ask for 2000k TT + for the hell of it and even then we are seeing ever increasing levels of automation in these smaller aircraft. To attract this experience they do pay a premium in the market.
And yes I agree that the 1% of the time when something goes severely wrong in any aviation environment, the experience of the crew goes a long way. However the risk analysts have decided that its an acceptable risk to see what the systems operators can do in that situation.
Now train drivers make as much and in many cases more than half the captains salaries listed in the above post. Why is this? It is not supply and demand, there are plenty of punters who want the job. (look at all the train nuts out there)
I can only bring it back to the position and the degree of manual input and decision making by the driver. Put it this way a train that breaks in half is the most common incident in rail ops, with a significant cost to the company each time it occurs $500k - $1m + per incident in lost revenue. This is almost always attributed with driver error. With driver input having such an effect on bottom line it makes sense to pay them a high salary. (well that is the opinion of a general manager from one of our big miners)
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As much as I hate to think about it, airline pilots are now 95% systems operator 5% hands on pilot. And this is how the public and management view the position
And the management view it that way because the two major manufacturers have convinced them that that is the case, in their never ending quest to sell aircraft & to out sell each other.
That doesn't make the perception accurate. And it sure doesn't enhance safety. I spend a fair proportion of my working day or night dealing with problems created by some of the new technology that was supposed to make my life easier or make me redundant. Sure I don't physically handle the controls as much as in years gone by, but I do spend a lot of time managing the flight. There is a lot more to piloting than just manipulating the controls. That is not a new phenomenon - it has always been that way. And flight management in all phases of normal & non-normal flight is something a computer, or a systems operator, is notoriously bad at.
the risk analysts have decided that its an acceptable risk to see what the systems operators can do in that situation.
And I am starting to get fed up with risk analysts, along with the many others, who feel that it is acceptable to 'play the stats' with my life & the lives of my family & friends when they chose to travel by air.
The reasonable & acceptable risk everyone takes when they walk out the door each day to participate in life, is fast becoming unreasonable & unacceptable when it comes to air travel.
Last edited by Oakape; 22nd Sep 2011 at 13:54.
Chocks away,
It is simple. Salaries do not get reduced if there is a shortage of pilots. Companies also won't make guys pay for their endorsements if there is a shortage. Until I see an upward trend in salaries, I won't believe the smoke and mirrors.
-QF are making pilots redundant.
-Jetstar hold interviews under the premise candidates will be working in oz, but then get told the only jobs are in Singapore or enzed on inferior conditions. So people tell them to stick it and they wonder why they can't get guys/gals.
- skippers pay poorly, but more importantly, treat their crews very badly (I wonder why they can't get or retain crew).
- Skywest are most certainly not parking aircraft due to a lack of crew. What a joke.
- As I mentioned in my earlier post, Cathay have reduced their salaries and housing allowance (FYI I know numerous guys that have told them thanks, but no thanks for this reason).
- Tiger make their crew pay for their own uniforms and parking at the airport. Enough said on that one.
- Garuda.... Are you kidding me? What exactly do these guys pay?
Let's say there is an airline parking aircraft due to a crew shortage (I have heard something about H.K.Exress - although don't quote me on it). How long do you think there will be a shortage if they increased salaries by 50% for example?
If anything, there is a shortage of pilots that will work for poor pay and conditions.
It is simple. Salaries do not get reduced if there is a shortage of pilots. Companies also won't make guys pay for their endorsements if there is a shortage. Until I see an upward trend in salaries, I won't believe the smoke and mirrors.
-QF are making pilots redundant.
-Jetstar hold interviews under the premise candidates will be working in oz, but then get told the only jobs are in Singapore or enzed on inferior conditions. So people tell them to stick it and they wonder why they can't get guys/gals.
- skippers pay poorly, but more importantly, treat their crews very badly (I wonder why they can't get or retain crew).
- Skywest are most certainly not parking aircraft due to a lack of crew. What a joke.
- As I mentioned in my earlier post, Cathay have reduced their salaries and housing allowance (FYI I know numerous guys that have told them thanks, but no thanks for this reason).
- Tiger make their crew pay for their own uniforms and parking at the airport. Enough said on that one.
- Garuda.... Are you kidding me? What exactly do these guys pay?
Let's say there is an airline parking aircraft due to a crew shortage (I have heard something about H.K.Exress - although don't quote me on it). How long do you think there will be a shortage if they increased salaries by 50% for example?
If anything, there is a shortage of pilots that will work for poor pay and conditions.
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Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
BEware the fickle winds of change. The EU and US economies looking ready to crash. Watch out as pilot recruitment goes backwards yet again.
It is my humble opionion the industry lurches from feast to famine but we can have some influence in steadying the ship. We can't have someone making $380,000 as a Captain of an A380, and an SO of same making $180,000 plus and FO somewhere inbetween, while guys doing essentially the same job on anything from Metro to Dash8 making $45k-$65K(FO), $75K-$95K (Capt). Is it me or is this simply ludicrous? An airline will struggle to simply put enough bums on seats to pay for crew wages alone, even if they were charging what an air seat should cost.
There has never been a 'big picture'view and plan taken (free market economy) to regulate and implant some sence to this.
I would suggest must less bitching amongst collegues, fights with management and unions etc....if the 'Industry' produced a White Paper 20 year plan for wages. yes the guys at the top of the tree might come down (a little) but pull up the guys at the bottom to a reasonable and livable level, comensurate with the qualification (same for everyone ATPL) and experience.
So, I'll never get a consencus on this one but open to the floor, what do you think your really worth?
I will start the bidding at FO $120K, Capt $200K first year
This will probably light up the thread with arguments but let's keep it civil, and think of it as a big picture discussion. STABILISE THE INDUSTRY.
Treat this as an discussion excersize with ourselves the benificiary of better undertanding what we are actually WORTH. I might be a little low to start, given a plumber is now on $100/hr but it's a start.
I'm ****ting myself that we are about to see pilots driving cabs again if the economy hits a tree
It is my humble opionion the industry lurches from feast to famine but we can have some influence in steadying the ship. We can't have someone making $380,000 as a Captain of an A380, and an SO of same making $180,000 plus and FO somewhere inbetween, while guys doing essentially the same job on anything from Metro to Dash8 making $45k-$65K(FO), $75K-$95K (Capt). Is it me or is this simply ludicrous? An airline will struggle to simply put enough bums on seats to pay for crew wages alone, even if they were charging what an air seat should cost.
There has never been a 'big picture'view and plan taken (free market economy) to regulate and implant some sence to this.
I would suggest must less bitching amongst collegues, fights with management and unions etc....if the 'Industry' produced a White Paper 20 year plan for wages. yes the guys at the top of the tree might come down (a little) but pull up the guys at the bottom to a reasonable and livable level, comensurate with the qualification (same for everyone ATPL) and experience.
So, I'll never get a consencus on this one but open to the floor, what do you think your really worth?
I will start the bidding at FO $120K, Capt $200K first year
This will probably light up the thread with arguments but let's keep it civil, and think of it as a big picture discussion. STABILISE THE INDUSTRY.
Treat this as an discussion excersize with ourselves the benificiary of better undertanding what we are actually WORTH. I might be a little low to start, given a plumber is now on $100/hr but it's a start.
I'm ****ting myself that we are about to see pilots driving cabs again if the economy hits a tree