Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

QF029 HKG - LHR turnback?

Old 17th Sep 2011, 02:56
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Slamer, my info is that the crew satphoned home and was told to divert by management.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 03:14
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Bad oversight by 2 crews, how did the aircraft leave Oz without the full route package. It is this second point that needs addressing by QF
IF you are implying that then you are saying that SO's will need to check every single page before departure at SYD. Who knows where an aircraft will go after you hand it over.

Maybe QF should issue worldwide jepps to every pilot and make them do the amendments....that'll teach 'em
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 03:33
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Maybe QF should issue worldwide jepps to every pilot and make them do the amendments....that'll teach 'em
And how may credited hours will AIPA demand for each revision? Who would then be blamed when the incorrect charts were on board?
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 03:52
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Not all Nev, crew have enough to deal with and I think QF have to have a more robust system in place to make sure the manuals are on board the aircraft. If a chart is missing in one book there is every chance it will be in the other, well that has always been my experience. I think in this instance there were no European chart manuals on the aircraft.

That said in the old days there was one Captain who gave the S/O a list of airport charts he wanted to be checked were on the aircraft before each flight. Good work to rule issue maybe??

Last edited by Nunc; 17th Sep 2011 at 04:11.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 04:51
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I find it ironic that today even a lowly C172 with G1000 can have jepp charts on the avionics system, and I believe that hey can be updated by sat internet. The newest Citations have a file server and that how its updated.

God knows how many $ were spent in this cockup, for want of a lowly laptop and a printer, whith Jeppview. The weight, maybe 3 pounds.

How many man hrs are spent each year updating paper chart packages at QF.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 05:17
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When they turned around they were closer to LHR than HKG. What would be the reccomended procedure had they managed to ahem...."lose" the HKG charts too?

Maybe that was the expedient alternative in a pinch.......

Last edited by ross_M; 17th Sep 2011 at 06:11.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 14:32
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Do you require E1 from Aus to Asia??
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 23:42
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An apparent screw up that would fall into the 'there, but for the grace of god...'

However, if my memory serves me correctly, it was a guy by the name of Max Surplice (not kidding) in charge of cost cutting that first came up with the great scheme of reducing manuals on aircraft to save money.

Bet he got a bonus for compromising an hitherto foolproof and successful system that had stood the test of time.
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 00:31
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I remember this happened a while back in Qantas. A classic departed out of Perth for Joburg without the appropriate charts.

Yep....the crew stuffed up. The person who signed the FSO folder (whoever that was) is probably the most to blame as it's his signature stating that the charts are on board.

However, to those who seem to be getting off on the fact that this Qantas crew and Qantas itself have been embarrassed, just remember. Aviation is all about making mistakes, recognizing them and then fixing them. I think we have all eaten a bit of humble pie over the years (with plenty left for seconds.....)
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 02:42
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The easiest guy to hang is the one who signed the FSOs, courtesy of the all-encompassing how-long-is-a-piece-of-string "ensure that the contents of the flight library are correct" motherhood statement in the FAM, which if taken to the n'th degree would mean signing on 4 hours before departure and doing an effective page and amendment check of about 20 books.
Yep.....true

one of numerous systemic problems the airline has had as a result of squeezing every dollar it can out of everything
Also very true!!
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 02:48
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The easiest guy to hang is the one who signed the FSOs, courtesy of the all-encompassing how-long-is-a-piece-of-string "ensure that the contents of the flight library are correct" motherhood statement in the FAM, which if taken to the n'th degree would mean signing on 4 hours before departure and doing an effective page and amendment check of about 20 books. However ultimately they all screwed up pretty much equally IMHO. I mean, each one of them, including the front seaters, would've had an obvious opportunity to spot the error. Plus the previous sector's crew too.

Regardless of that fact though, nobody's perfect. Some of us are just lucky enough to get away with our screwups.

But it all comes down to the fact that there's a systemic problem with flight libraries in Qantas - one of numerous systemic problems the airline has had as a result of squeezing every dollar it can out of everything. There are any number of ways to make the system more robust and error-tolerant but they all involve spending money, and that's just not the modern Qantas way.
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 02:56
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Good point Dutch. Any money they have saved from the flight library's over the years just went up in smoke in the price of that diversion! $250,000+
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 04:06
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Yes but it went to a good cause, the CEO remuneration pity the cost of these decisions is not taken back.

Then again IPAD's gifted to politicians and others could have been put to better use??
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 04:43
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Reminds me of when the first gulf war started , and we were over egypt somewhere enroute to Jnb. A call came from one of our 767s who had to divert to Nairobbery from Jeddah, without any aerodrome plates for said airfield, so he wrote it all down on a fag packet as we read the stuff out. No problem.
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 09:14
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Great post Frangatan! From a time before pilots had been beaten into submission over 'what if's' by accountants, lawyers and legislators. Good old fashioned nous!!!
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 10:10
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The same thing happened on a JQ flight DRW - SIN a few years back. Fortunately when the guys got on the ground they were not out of hours and could continue.

Sh*t happens... Unfortunately sometimes it costs money.

Can all of the stone throwers attest to the fact that they have checked the charts every single time they have gone flying? Or have we all just been lucky to date.
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 12:27
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All this about a chart here and a chart there:
it's about extra books approximately 200mm X 120mm X 80mm all marked with an E for Europe. Extra books are needed to go to Europe in addition to the others. If you don't have the books marked with an E and you are heading anywhere west from the East coast of OZ past the sub-continent then you need them. If you only have a small number then you are short; if you have about twice the small number you probably have enough.
It not that hard especially when it is written as part of your job for each tour of duty.
Unless of course you are not doing what you are paid for, in which case what else are you not doing?
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 23:41
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If the aircraft/crew didn't have the London plates on board, they also wouldn't have had the majority of the plates for the rest of Europe (Main airports and many of the alternates).. A Very High risk call for QF management to say 'Continue'.. Not a real problem, except if other isses (emergencies) were to compound the situation!..
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Old 19th Sep 2011, 11:51
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No-one has mentioned yet the additional requirement on the HKG-LHR sector to check the charts for the enroute alternates which form part of the escape procedure over China.

Some of those aerodromes (places like Almaty and Karaganda from memory) are in the Europe manuals.

It seems that specific pre-flight requirement wasn't met either
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