Xenophon Private Members Bill - Foreign Crews
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airtags - that "consistency" message was repeated by Jetstar in their written message to Lateline earlier in the week and then by BB on ABC radio on Thursday morning.
I guess the "Qantas Group" could include or exclude any number of entities depending on ones point of view!!!!
I guess the "Qantas Group" could include or exclude any number of entities depending on ones point of view!!!!
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great article.
Get used to it, miffed airline workers told | The Australian
This guy has so much experience
Ian Douglas is a senior lecturer with the Department of Aviation.
His research interest is focused on ASEAN aviation, and his DBA research addresses the tensions between economic and institutional factors in development of airline strategy.
Ian joined UNSW in 2007 after 5 years with the School of Management at UTS, and 25 years at Qantas where his roles ranged through airport operations, fleet and airline planning, pricing, revenue management and alliances. At UTS Ian developed the consulting stream of the MBA degree. The contribution of this management consulting program to a range of community organisations was recognised in 2006 with both a university human rights award and a teaching award.
No wonder the kids come out twisted.
Im a little lost ,
I cant really see any history that makes him an expert in cabin safety.
What do they teach a MBA scholar.Looks like he worked for 25 yrs then had to go back to school to get the next job
Get used to it, miffed airline workers told | The Australian
This guy has so much experience
Ian Douglas is a senior lecturer with the Department of Aviation.
His research interest is focused on ASEAN aviation, and his DBA research addresses the tensions between economic and institutional factors in development of airline strategy.
Ian joined UNSW in 2007 after 5 years with the School of Management at UTS, and 25 years at Qantas where his roles ranged through airport operations, fleet and airline planning, pricing, revenue management and alliances. At UTS Ian developed the consulting stream of the MBA degree. The contribution of this management consulting program to a range of community organisations was recognised in 2006 with both a university human rights award and a teaching award.
No wonder the kids come out twisted.
Im a little lost ,
I cant really see any history that makes him an expert in cabin safety.
What do they teach a MBA scholar.Looks like he worked for 25 yrs then had to go back to school to get the next job
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Ian joined UNSW in 2007 after 5 years with the School of Management at UTS, and 25 years at Qantas where his roles ranged through...fleet and airline planning...
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Mr Douglas said offshoring was not an excuse for unsafe tours of duty or onerous contracts. He said the same safety standards, rules and requirements should apply to all.
Jetstar was this week criticised for its treatment of crew hired by a Bangkok labour hire firm 37 per cent owned by parent Qantas.
The airline told the firm, Tour East Thailand, to withdraw letters written to five Bangkok-based flight attendants who pulled out of a Sydney-Melbourne flight complaining of fatigue.
The letters said poor time management was not acceptable and required an undertaking they would not repeat their behaviour. The letters also castigated the crew, reportedly paid a base wage of $258 a month plus $7 an hour while flying, for damaging Jetstar's reputation.
The airline told the firm, Tour East Thailand, to withdraw letters written to five Bangkok-based flight attendants who pulled out of a Sydney-Melbourne flight complaining of fatigue.
The letters said poor time management was not acceptable and required an undertaking they would not repeat their behaviour. The letters also castigated the crew, reportedly paid a base wage of $258 a month plus $7 an hour while flying, for damaging Jetstar's reputation.
Of course foreign university staff in many places (academic and otherwise) earn a pittance compared to what faculty staff here are on. Maybe the unis should start offshoring some of their academic preparation and online tutoring work. They could make heaps by paying Indonesian rates for faculty staff but still charging Aussie students the same tuition fees at an 'Australian' university, while just employing a handful of Australian based academics to do the face-to-face lecturing.
Perhaps then some of these academic experts would start to understand why people get 'miffed'
about this sort of thing. Good for the X man, anyway.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 31st Jul 2011 at 04:07.
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Originally Posted by Worrals in the wilds
Of course foreign university staff in many places (academic and otherwise) earn a pittance compared to what faculty staff here are on........... and doing all "face-to-face" lectures via teleconferencing from someone earning $200 a month in Thailand.
Perhaps then some of these academic experts would start to understand why people get 'miffed'
about this sort of thing.
Perhaps then some of these academic experts would start to understand why people get 'miffed'
about this sort of thing.
ST
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australian crews..
One wonders whether Mr Xenophon or the general public is aware that it isn't just foreign crews subjected to these working conditions and duty period limitations. QCCA crew ( a subsidiary formed by Qantas to enable cheap cabin crew to work on the a380), work side-by-side Qantas Airlines crew who are earning double the money, whilst performing exactly the same role.
In addition, crew employed on the a380, not only have to work 50 more hours per roster; but also have considerably less rest entitlements both upline and at home than crew working on the 747.
a380 crew require just 24 hours planned rest in an outport for a duty in excess of 14 hours whilst 747 crew require 36 hours for a duty in excess of 14 hours.
Likewise, the rest at home base that crew require:
-after a 2 day trip: A380 crew:18 hours / 747 crew: 1 local night
-after a 3 day trip: A380 crew: 20 hours / 747 crew: 2 local nights
-after a Europe trip (normally a 6-8 day trip) A380 crew: 48 hours / 747 crew: 5 local nights.
So are crew that are employed on the a380 somehow immune to fatigue? Last time I checked, all crew are human beings and are affected equally in regards to long-haul flying.
So, while it is distressing that foreign crews are being treated differently to Australian based crew; we also have a situation in our own backyard where two lots of Australian based crew are treated considerably differently ( in relation to both financial reward, and fatigue management.)
Is it common knowledge that Australia's "premium" flag carrier is employing such tactics? Because let me assure you, it is not just the budget carrier guilty of such double standards.
In addition, crew employed on the a380, not only have to work 50 more hours per roster; but also have considerably less rest entitlements both upline and at home than crew working on the 747.
a380 crew require just 24 hours planned rest in an outport for a duty in excess of 14 hours whilst 747 crew require 36 hours for a duty in excess of 14 hours.
Likewise, the rest at home base that crew require:
-after a 2 day trip: A380 crew:18 hours / 747 crew: 1 local night
-after a 3 day trip: A380 crew: 20 hours / 747 crew: 2 local nights
-after a Europe trip (normally a 6-8 day trip) A380 crew: 48 hours / 747 crew: 5 local nights.
So are crew that are employed on the a380 somehow immune to fatigue? Last time I checked, all crew are human beings and are affected equally in regards to long-haul flying.
So, while it is distressing that foreign crews are being treated differently to Australian based crew; we also have a situation in our own backyard where two lots of Australian based crew are treated considerably differently ( in relation to both financial reward, and fatigue management.)
Is it common knowledge that Australia's "premium" flag carrier is employing such tactics? Because let me assure you, it is not just the budget carrier guilty of such double standards.
Don't shoot the messenger!
Lame1, Worrals and others:
It seems to me that Douglas is only telling it the way it is, (as now has rooboy83). He doesn't set industrial relations policy nor determine what foreign owned companies do.
Perhaps also its time that CASA gets on their bike and does something about cabin crew fatigue. It seems they do have some teeth after all.
Keep your energy for where it is needed, watching company activities for unethical or illegal behaviour and supporting the good Sen X etc.
There is no point shooting the messenger......
It seems to me that Douglas is only telling it the way it is, (as now has rooboy83). He doesn't set industrial relations policy nor determine what foreign owned companies do.
Perhaps also its time that CASA gets on their bike and does something about cabin crew fatigue. It seems they do have some teeth after all.
Keep your energy for where it is needed, watching company activities for unethical or illegal behaviour and supporting the good Sen X etc.
There is no point shooting the messenger......
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Fair enough Seabreeze, but I think it's easy for 'experts' to gaily predict doom and gloom here and in the press because it doesn't affect them. If it affected their industry, their pay or their conditions they wouldn't be so quick to tell us all to put up and shut up.
The more often 'experts' jump up in the press and predict doom and gloom (Geoffery Thomas on Sunrise for example) it makes the IR war harder and gives these companies more confidence to behave like erks, because the 'experts' are supporting them. Actually Douglas wasn't as anti-worker as some, and at least supports consistent safety and work standards for F/As no matter what their home port is.
I quite agree that CASA should be looking at fatigue issues across the whole industry. Qantas aren't a foreign company (yet) however much they pretend, and they should be answerable to the Australian government.
The more often 'experts' jump up in the press and predict doom and gloom (Geoffery Thomas on Sunrise for example) it makes the IR war harder and gives these companies more confidence to behave like erks, because the 'experts' are supporting them. Actually Douglas wasn't as anti-worker as some, and at least supports consistent safety and work standards for F/As no matter what their home port is.
I quite agree that CASA should be looking at fatigue issues across the whole industry. Qantas aren't a foreign company (yet
) however much they pretend, and they should be answerable to the Australian government. Join Date: May 2009
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The X Factor
Foreign Jetstar crew seek relief Monday, 01 August 2011 Qantas group budget carrier Jetstar is facing calls for its Asia-based and other foreign crews to be offered employment contracts in line with their Australian peers. Independent senator Nick Xenophon says foreign-based crews employed by the Qantas-owned carrier are working under completely different conditions, with flight attendants in Thailand paid A$258 a month as a base salary, plus A$7 for every hour they fly plus allowances.
Xenophon says regulations are needed to protect any cabin crew whose contracts specify no limits on the hours they can be required to work.
"When cabin crew tell me that they are worried they won't be able to function appropriately in the event of an emergency, then that's a serious issue," he told Australia's ABC Radio.
Jetstar's cabin crew already have accused the airline of ignoring their complaints about fatigue after being forced to work up to 20 hours straight.
Xenophon now will introduce a bill to force Australian airlines to make their flight and duty conditions for foreign crews the same as their Australian crews.
“I don’t think all people realise crew on flights from Brisbane to Cairns may actually be based in Bangkok, earning a base pay of less than A$300 a month, and that they may have worked hours that Australian crews would not be allowed to (work),” Xenophon said.
The bill would also apply to any international airlines in which an Australian airline owns more than a 20 per cent stake.
The bill also would apply to crews based in PNG and New Zealand.
Xenophon says regulations are needed to protect any cabin crew whose contracts specify no limits on the hours they can be required to work.
"When cabin crew tell me that they are worried they won't be able to function appropriately in the event of an emergency, then that's a serious issue," he told Australia's ABC Radio.
Jetstar's cabin crew already have accused the airline of ignoring their complaints about fatigue after being forced to work up to 20 hours straight.
Xenophon now will introduce a bill to force Australian airlines to make their flight and duty conditions for foreign crews the same as their Australian crews.
“I don’t think all people realise crew on flights from Brisbane to Cairns may actually be based in Bangkok, earning a base pay of less than A$300 a month, and that they may have worked hours that Australian crews would not be allowed to (work),” Xenophon said.
The bill would also apply to any international airlines in which an Australian airline owns more than a 20 per cent stake.
The bill also would apply to crews based in PNG and New Zealand.
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Plane Talking
Hitting the replay button on Jetstar claims
August 2, 2011 – 9:17 am, by Ben Sandilands
One of the features of the recent Senate Inquiry into pilot training and airline safety was the need to recall witnesses to sort out misunderstandings.
Which is why YouTube compilations like the one below by Plane Talking reader ‘Qanunder dog‘ or the full replay archives offered by the ABC on abc.net.au are important.
In this compilation Jetstar Group CEO Bruce Buchanan makes the points that the ABC TV Lateline show that highlighted the five flight attendants who called in fatigued at the end of a 20 hour shift of the type that Jetstar clearly doesn’t really roster at all were actually making up to $30,000 a year, and were in the top percentile of wage earns in Thailand, and that Jetstar’s operations reflected the 90 year tradition of excellence of the Qantas group.
The Lateline program was therefore, either a hoax, or the group CEO misunderstood the questions when he responded to the program the following morning.
If the five exhausted Jetstar employees are earning $30,000 a year, and they make around $3000 in base pay plus $7 an hour on duty, that means they need to average $2250 a month in that year to reach that total, and that means they need to average 321 hours a month on duty or more than 70 hours a week.
However Buchanan also said the Jetstar cabin crew only fly on average 24 hours a week. None of this adds up.
At the same time the company issued a statement defending the bonding of Thai employees of the labor contract company Tour East Thai to a repayment of up to four and half months base pay if they quit early or were fired for any reason as ‘compensation’ for the investment the company had made in their training.
Fortunately Buchanan make it clear this was not slave labor, that the company had robust arrangements to limit hours, and claims that it was outsourcing Australian jobs to Asia based employees were completely untrue.
Given that Senator Nick Xenophon is proposing a private member’s bill to outlaw the use of foreign based flight attendants on domestic flights in Australia, a fresh Senate inquiry with more time to deal with fewer issues than those considered by the earlier hearings could clear up all of these ‘misunderstandings’.
Hitting the replay button on Jetstar claims
August 2, 2011 – 9:17 am, by Ben Sandilands
One of the features of the recent Senate Inquiry into pilot training and airline safety was the need to recall witnesses to sort out misunderstandings.
Which is why YouTube compilations like the one below by Plane Talking reader ‘Qanunder dog‘ or the full replay archives offered by the ABC on abc.net.au are important.
In this compilation Jetstar Group CEO Bruce Buchanan makes the points that the ABC TV Lateline show that highlighted the five flight attendants who called in fatigued at the end of a 20 hour shift of the type that Jetstar clearly doesn’t really roster at all were actually making up to $30,000 a year, and were in the top percentile of wage earns in Thailand, and that Jetstar’s operations reflected the 90 year tradition of excellence of the Qantas group.
The Lateline program was therefore, either a hoax, or the group CEO misunderstood the questions when he responded to the program the following morning.
If the five exhausted Jetstar employees are earning $30,000 a year, and they make around $3000 in base pay plus $7 an hour on duty, that means they need to average $2250 a month in that year to reach that total, and that means they need to average 321 hours a month on duty or more than 70 hours a week.
However Buchanan also said the Jetstar cabin crew only fly on average 24 hours a week. None of this adds up.
At the same time the company issued a statement defending the bonding of Thai employees of the labor contract company Tour East Thai to a repayment of up to four and half months base pay if they quit early or were fired for any reason as ‘compensation’ for the investment the company had made in their training.
Fortunately Buchanan make it clear this was not slave labor, that the company had robust arrangements to limit hours, and claims that it was outsourcing Australian jobs to Asia based employees were completely untrue.
Given that Senator Nick Xenophon is proposing a private member’s bill to outlaw the use of foreign based flight attendants on domestic flights in Australia, a fresh Senate inquiry with more time to deal with fewer issues than those considered by the earlier hearings could clear up all of these ‘misunderstandings’.
Last edited by TIMA9X; 2nd Aug 2011 at 01:14.
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If the five exhausted Jetstar employees are earning $30,000 a year, and they make around $3000 in base pay plus $7 an hour on duty, that means they need to average $2250 a month in that year to reach that total, and that means they need to average 321 hours a month on duty or more than 70 hours a week.
However Buchanan also said the Jetstar cabin crew only fly on average 24 hours a week. None of this adds up.
However Buchanan also said the Jetstar cabin crew only fly on average 24 hours a week. None of this adds up.
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Brilliant article from Sandilands.
It certainly appears that the QF/JQ game of smoke n mirrors is not good enough to fool the likes of Senator X. In fact, pretty much everyone can now see through the deflective barriers in place and the buls*it stories peppered with half baked facts and diversionary statements, hence Mr Sandlands accurate and well articulated comments ! If I were Senator X I would be pushing for an additional enquiry probing some of the raised issues in more detail, and investigating any comments, claims, statements or statistics put forward under parliamentary oath that are complete shisen.
It would be unwise for any misleadings or untruths to not therefore be addressed as this will initself simply highlight that Ministers have little or no authority over big business. This would have the effect of further eroding any confidence within Australian aviation safety and the abilities of Government ministers, so there is a lot at stake here.
C'mon Nick, you are half way there, the foreplay was great and I highly commend you for your work to date, it is now time to finish the job.
It certainly appears that the QF/JQ game of smoke n mirrors is not good enough to fool the likes of Senator X. In fact, pretty much everyone can now see through the deflective barriers in place and the buls*it stories peppered with half baked facts and diversionary statements, hence Mr Sandlands accurate and well articulated comments ! If I were Senator X I would be pushing for an additional enquiry probing some of the raised issues in more detail, and investigating any comments, claims, statements or statistics put forward under parliamentary oath that are complete shisen.
It would be unwise for any misleadings or untruths to not therefore be addressed as this will initself simply highlight that Ministers have little or no authority over big business. This would have the effect of further eroding any confidence within Australian aviation safety and the abilities of Government ministers, so there is a lot at stake here.
C'mon Nick, you are half way there, the foreplay was great and I highly commend you for your work to date, it is now time to finish the job.
Nunc est bibendum
If I were Senator X I would be pushing for an additional enquiry probing some of the raised issues in more detail, and investigating any comments, claims, statements or statistics put forward under parliamentary oath that are complete shisen.
I suggest that interested parties should consider emailing him and indicate their support for the Parliamentary process to do a little bit more digging into QF, their exec and what they say publicly.
I've said it before. Buchanan is a liar, pure and simple. The thing about liars of course, is to get away with it for any length of time, one must have an exceptional memory.
I can't believe that he and his mate Joyce haven't already been charged with purgery?
I can't believe that he and his mate Joyce haven't already been charged with purgery?
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Krusty - agree with your sentiment however its within the scope of the Parly Priv C'tee and the associated standing orders to act.
however..........that said, it's highly unlikely loose Bruce and the Orange Emperor (the alternate Maverick & Goose?) will be declared in contempt, but their own testimony clearly condemns them.
The real pressure must now be put on Clifford (& as he calls it...'his team') to question the likes of Joyce and Buchanan as it is more than obvious that the underlings are not correctly briefing the Board.
For the Unions, the key is to focus on the maths as Clifford is only interested in the numbers and sadly the numbers, like AJ & BB's cred do not add up.
They will no matter what gut QF on the 24th - the challenge is to ensure the appropriate (and to date missing) level of scrutiny is applied [cue: Kelpie - feel free to jump in here anytime...Justin, don't even think about doing an Olivia..............]
AT
thread drift - well done to the Minister for Mascot for totally ignoring the Aircrew Unions and representatives in the body scanner trials ....DOT has only had two years to do it ....definately the stuff of future QF Management material
however..........that said, it's highly unlikely loose Bruce and the Orange Emperor (the alternate Maverick & Goose?) will be declared in contempt, but their own testimony clearly condemns them.
The real pressure must now be put on Clifford (& as he calls it...'his team') to question the likes of Joyce and Buchanan as it is more than obvious that the underlings are not correctly briefing the Board.
For the Unions, the key is to focus on the maths as Clifford is only interested in the numbers and sadly the numbers, like AJ & BB's cred do not add up.
They will no matter what gut QF on the 24th - the challenge is to ensure the appropriate (and to date missing) level of scrutiny is applied [cue: Kelpie - feel free to jump in here anytime...Justin, don't even think about doing an Olivia..............
]AT
thread drift - well done to the Minister for Mascot for totally ignoring the Aircrew Unions and representatives in the body scanner trials ....DOT has only had two years to do it ....definately the stuff of future QF Management material
Last edited by airtags; 2nd Aug 2011 at 10:27.
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As I said I would, I emailed Senator Xenophon. To my amazement, I received a response the next day:
Thank you for your email to Nick. Nick is currently out of the office and has asked me to respond on his behalf.
I have passed on your comments to Nick and his senior advisors for their reference and consideration.
Nick remains extremely concerned by what was revealed in the Lateline story last week. You can read a transcript here: Lateline - 27/07/2011: Jetstar crew members claim exploitation. It is an extreme concern if crew do not believe they will be able to cope with an emergency. I have attached Nick’s press release for your interest.
You will also be aware that the Senate Committee has handed down its Inquiry report into aviation, which confirms fears of slipping standards.
The Committee has recommended tougher safety standards, better incident reporting guidelines and improved fatigue management, including extending fatigue rules to cabin attendants.
Nick has called on the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Anthony Albanese, to urgently act on the recommendations in the report. You can also read the full report here.
Thank you for taking the time to write to Nick on this important issue and for you support on this issue.
Very impressed with the response and not often I am with a pollie.
Thank you for your email to Nick. Nick is currently out of the office and has asked me to respond on his behalf.
I have passed on your comments to Nick and his senior advisors for their reference and consideration.
Nick remains extremely concerned by what was revealed in the Lateline story last week. You can read a transcript here: Lateline - 27/07/2011: Jetstar crew members claim exploitation. It is an extreme concern if crew do not believe they will be able to cope with an emergency. I have attached Nick’s press release for your interest.
You will also be aware that the Senate Committee has handed down its Inquiry report into aviation, which confirms fears of slipping standards.
The Committee has recommended tougher safety standards, better incident reporting guidelines and improved fatigue management, including extending fatigue rules to cabin attendants.
Nick has called on the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Anthony Albanese, to urgently act on the recommendations in the report. You can also read the full report here.
Thank you for taking the time to write to Nick on this important issue and for you support on this issue.
Very impressed with the response and not often I am with a pollie.
Rumour going around that the 5 Thai Flight Attendants who complained about being tired have just been fired.
If true, the media and Senator X will be all over it.
If true, the media and Senator X will be all over it.