Dick Smith "QF move to Asia".
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: deepest darkest recess of your mind
Posts: 1,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dick, I have one question for you. Many people here, (and myself), suspect/know of some of the gifting/cross subsidisation of the Jetstar brand at the cost of QF domestic/international. This management lie through their teeth, and get away with it at the moment because noone asks the important questions regarding the financials. The figures they produce are rubbery at best and downright works of fiction at worst. However, noone other than the management have the real ones. How exactly does that sit with you? Do you actually believe the story that this inept management continues to trot out? Yes, the company must be competitive. It never will be as long as the whole financial picture remains hidden.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm pleased that someone with extensive experience like Mr Smith has finally pointed out where the responsibility of the problem truly lies.
The "Open Skies" policy is a strategic aspect of the governments work and certainly an external factor which is detrimental to local operators. To be fair though, the government must balance a bigger picture which is the benefit that other operators bring to the price of an airfare for the consumer and the increased number of travelers to Australia. This is a decision the federal government make and if you disagree, you should certainly contact your local member.
International trade theory clearly highlights the advantages of global trade however there will always be losers and in this case it will be local carriers. Unless the government view a national airline of strategic importance, the view of Mr Smith would appear to be valid.
The "Open Skies" policy is a strategic aspect of the governments work and certainly an external factor which is detrimental to local operators. To be fair though, the government must balance a bigger picture which is the benefit that other operators bring to the price of an airfare for the consumer and the increased number of travelers to Australia. This is a decision the federal government make and if you disagree, you should certainly contact your local member.
International trade theory clearly highlights the advantages of global trade however there will always be losers and in this case it will be local carriers. Unless the government view a national airline of strategic importance, the view of Mr Smith would appear to be valid.
I agree with what you have written but international trade theory is just that. Theory! What do you do when several sovereign states deliberately set up an arbitrage practice to undermine real competition? REALITY
Ex AWA...
Hi Dick/All:
I can't resist this... As one of my (many!) former 'careers', I worked in the AWA Factory, making TVs. I was there just at the introduction of colour TVs. Our flagship product then was the Philips K-9 TV, which many in the electronics industry will remember for its ground-breaking switched-mode power supply, and its true PAL delay-line decoder that enabled the reproduction of true colours.
We had a better product, it sold in hundreds of thousands for the same price as others, and I will bet you that some are still running!
My point is that Dick is right: QANTAS is going under because it's not competitive. But I disagree with him that protectionism is the answer: it has never worked anywhere else it has been tried...
Carry out a little test: Book yourself three international legs, one on QANTAS, one on VA, one on Emirates. Book down the back in Cattle Class where the majority of us do the majority of our flying. See your product the way most Australians see it. What will you get?
QANTAS: Narrow, cramped, uncomfortable seats. Old, noisy, dirty aircraft. Nasty, out-of-focus IFE that probably doesn't work, with no choice of what you watch. Haphazard cabin service from staff that look and act like they don't want to be there.
VA: More comfortable seats: still squashy, but bearable for 15 hours! Superb IFE, with seat-back screens. Modern, clean aircraft (the 777 is not particularly quiet, but it will do). OK, the staff may look a little strung out, but they are trying: really trying to please.
Emirates: Just try one leg on Emirates and you will see where the goal-posts are now. The A380 is so quiet I had to take my headphones off to be sure they had started the engines. Meals are delicious. Staff are unhurried and attentive. Aircraft spotless. My main problem with the IFE was that we landed before I got all my selections watched! And the voice from the flight-deck had an Australian accent.
If VA can do it, QANTAS could too. If they had put even a little of their effort into looking after their customers in ways that count.
I am sorry guys, but trying to make Economy Class so excruciatingly uncomfortable that we would be forced to buy Business Class or not fly, is not a marketing strategy I would have chosen. It is having the predictable effect: we're NOT flying QANTAS. What did you expect?
Cheers
I can't resist this... As one of my (many!) former 'careers', I worked in the AWA Factory, making TVs. I was there just at the introduction of colour TVs. Our flagship product then was the Philips K-9 TV, which many in the electronics industry will remember for its ground-breaking switched-mode power supply, and its true PAL delay-line decoder that enabled the reproduction of true colours.
We had a better product, it sold in hundreds of thousands for the same price as others, and I will bet you that some are still running!
My point is that Dick is right: QANTAS is going under because it's not competitive. But I disagree with him that protectionism is the answer: it has never worked anywhere else it has been tried...
Carry out a little test: Book yourself three international legs, one on QANTAS, one on VA, one on Emirates. Book down the back in Cattle Class where the majority of us do the majority of our flying. See your product the way most Australians see it. What will you get?
QANTAS: Narrow, cramped, uncomfortable seats. Old, noisy, dirty aircraft. Nasty, out-of-focus IFE that probably doesn't work, with no choice of what you watch. Haphazard cabin service from staff that look and act like they don't want to be there.
VA: More comfortable seats: still squashy, but bearable for 15 hours! Superb IFE, with seat-back screens. Modern, clean aircraft (the 777 is not particularly quiet, but it will do). OK, the staff may look a little strung out, but they are trying: really trying to please.
Emirates: Just try one leg on Emirates and you will see where the goal-posts are now. The A380 is so quiet I had to take my headphones off to be sure they had started the engines. Meals are delicious. Staff are unhurried and attentive. Aircraft spotless. My main problem with the IFE was that we landed before I got all my selections watched! And the voice from the flight-deck had an Australian accent.
If VA can do it, QANTAS could too. If they had put even a little of their effort into looking after their customers in ways that count.
I am sorry guys, but trying to make Economy Class so excruciatingly uncomfortable that we would be forced to buy Business Class or not fly, is not a marketing strategy I would have chosen. It is having the predictable effect: we're NOT flying QANTAS. What did you expect?
Cheers
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: on skybeds
Age: 43
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, Hey
QANTAS: Narrow, cramped, uncomfortable seats. Old, noisy, dirty aircraft.
Quote:
Nasty, out-of-focus IFE that probably doesn't work, with no choice of what you watch. Haphazard cabin service from staff that look and act like they don't want to be there.
Emirates: Just try one leg on Emirates and you will see where the goal-posts are now. The A380 is so quiet I had to take my headphones off to be sure they had started the engines. Meals are delicious. Staff are unhurried and attentive. Aircraft spotless. My main problem with the IFE was that we landed before I got all my selections watched! And the voice from the flight-deck had an Australian accent.
I get it you don't like the rat. but compare an QF 747 with a new EKA380 is not fair. Get on a QF A380 and then compare! Sure QF lages in refitting their 747's but try the A380. As for EK have you ever flown from Oz to DBK then on to somewhere in Europa. most likely you have an aircraft change in Dubai and all the glorious bits are gone.
As for the 777 on VA. yes it is a good aircraft and if only the powers in QF would have got 20 of them............................the rest is history
I do agree with Dicks comments
keep the comparison fair!
Quote:
Nasty, out-of-focus IFE that probably doesn't work, with no choice of what you watch. Haphazard cabin service from staff that look and act like they don't want to be there.
Emirates: Just try one leg on Emirates and you will see where the goal-posts are now. The A380 is so quiet I had to take my headphones off to be sure they had started the engines. Meals are delicious. Staff are unhurried and attentive. Aircraft spotless. My main problem with the IFE was that we landed before I got all my selections watched! And the voice from the flight-deck had an Australian accent.
I get it you don't like the rat. but compare an QF 747 with a new EKA380 is not fair. Get on a QF A380 and then compare! Sure QF lages in refitting their 747's but try the A380. As for EK have you ever flown from Oz to DBK then on to somewhere in Europa. most likely you have an aircraft change in Dubai and all the glorious bits are gone.
As for the 777 on VA. yes it is a good aircraft and if only the powers in QF would have got 20 of them............................the rest is history
I do agree with Dicks comments
keep the comparison fair!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The cloud
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"5-6 phillipinos and Indians under an Aussie or Brit LAME"
oh and how will you get a LAME to provide supervision if we already outsourced the jobs over seas, have no lames in Australia cause the pay is poor, and know you'll need to move if you want to even obtain a job...
Let's look at it this way Dick - if you thought your peanut butter could have a higher profit margin if it was made in India. Would you then setup factories in India ship it to Australia and sell it in a mix with your genuine Aussie peanut butter and claim they're all Aussie owned Aussie made and highest quality peanuts because it's part of the group? It's ok just put an asterix on the Aussie made logo with a notation *may be produced in india*
I'm not about to tell you how to run your business dick, your clearly a smarter man than I. But if your product is cheaper then surely you could raise the price to increase your marketing budget on Aussie made Aussie owned or the superior quality and taste it has. I for one am a consumer of your products for that reason.
Qantas is completely different - it is not the fualt of government (although they could assist in helping our businesses prosper)...
Qantas management is clearly shortsighted, inept and out of their depth and clearly unable to offer a quality product and manage all of it's affairs.
On the government side perhaps a competetive tax rate would help yours and qantas' cause, and be worth advocating for all business in Australia. But instead we continue to tax high requiring high salaries to cover it... we are also about to add another tax to the detrimate of business. Then whinge when we can't afford to pay our employees anymore... Yeap blame the Asians...
oh and how will you get a LAME to provide supervision if we already outsourced the jobs over seas, have no lames in Australia cause the pay is poor, and know you'll need to move if you want to even obtain a job...
Let's look at it this way Dick - if you thought your peanut butter could have a higher profit margin if it was made in India. Would you then setup factories in India ship it to Australia and sell it in a mix with your genuine Aussie peanut butter and claim they're all Aussie owned Aussie made and highest quality peanuts because it's part of the group? It's ok just put an asterix on the Aussie made logo with a notation *may be produced in india*
I'm not about to tell you how to run your business dick, your clearly a smarter man than I. But if your product is cheaper then surely you could raise the price to increase your marketing budget on Aussie made Aussie owned or the superior quality and taste it has. I for one am a consumer of your products for that reason.
Qantas is completely different - it is not the fualt of government (although they could assist in helping our businesses prosper)...
Qantas management is clearly shortsighted, inept and out of their depth and clearly unable to offer a quality product and manage all of it's affairs.
On the government side perhaps a competetive tax rate would help yours and qantas' cause, and be worth advocating for all business in Australia. But instead we continue to tax high requiring high salaries to cover it... we are also about to add another tax to the detrimate of business. Then whinge when we can't afford to pay our employees anymore... Yeap blame the Asians...
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: gold coast QLD australia
Age: 86
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I totally disagree. Qantas is not going under because it is not competitive, it is going under because it is poorly led. Clifford is the main problem and Joyce is not far behind. Air NewZealand is a perfect example of a well run airline, and the reason is it has a excellent CEO, who recognises that the staff are everything. They don't have the all the latest equipment, but they present clean, well maintained aircraft, happy staff, and value for money. A trip with them is pleasant, the average punter is happy with that. Not all airlines can present with the latest out of the Boeing/Airbus hangers, and they mean not a dam if there is no service to go with it. All airlines have their faults, and having just flown CX, always a nice airline to fly, I might just mention that their economy class seats are equivalent to a rock. Nine hours to HKG on a rock is no fun, the cabin manager assured me that they were designed by a chiropractor, well all I can think is they are drumming up business, at least QF seats are comfortable. Get rid of Clifford and Joyce, get yourselves a decent CEO in the mould of Menidue, Ward or Yates, all good company men who appreciated their staff, and the staff responded accordingly, and QF will start humming along again. It does not need to go off shore, it belongs here. Surely to God we can run it from here, if we cannot then it is us that has failed. Surely this great old airline deserves better. As for Smith, I put him the same basket as Oakeshott, the conversation is alarmingly the same.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dick,
OK, I accept that you meant Qantas' employees no harm, and that you lay the blame on the Government and the non-protectionist policies.
Problem is (and c173 beat me to it - well said mate!), your headline reads:
Move to Asia or go broke, Dick Smith tells Qantas
By doing so you have kicked a huge goal for what Teresa rightly describes as a poor management team.
You have given them momentum they need to outsource!
Perhaps your headline should have read - "Smith Blames Open Skies Policy for Qantas Failure" or "Reform of Australias Airways Needed for Qantas Future".
Maybe you should think a little more before flapping your gums!
Let me tell you, Dick, Qantas doesnt just want to send employment to Asia because they are cheaper. They want to do it because overseas work forces are EASIER! They have no OH&S! They have no superannuation! They have no annoying unions! They will shut up and do what they are told! They are compliant!
It isnt just costs! It is the whole package.
Qantas management are doing this not because Qantas isn't profitable as it is, even despite their hopeless ineptitude! They are doing it because they can!
And you just assisted them with that joke of a headline!
OK, I accept that you meant Qantas' employees no harm, and that you lay the blame on the Government and the non-protectionist policies.
Problem is (and c173 beat me to it - well said mate!), your headline reads:
Move to Asia or go broke, Dick Smith tells Qantas
By doing so you have kicked a huge goal for what Teresa rightly describes as a poor management team.
You have given them momentum they need to outsource!
Perhaps your headline should have read - "Smith Blames Open Skies Policy for Qantas Failure" or "Reform of Australias Airways Needed for Qantas Future".
Maybe you should think a little more before flapping your gums!
Let me tell you, Dick, Qantas doesnt just want to send employment to Asia because they are cheaper. They want to do it because overseas work forces are EASIER! They have no OH&S! They have no superannuation! They have no annoying unions! They will shut up and do what they are told! They are compliant!
It isnt just costs! It is the whole package.
Qantas management are doing this not because Qantas isn't profitable as it is, even despite their hopeless ineptitude! They are doing it because they can!
And you just assisted them with that joke of a headline!
QF management may listen to Dick Smith's headline, they won't listen to the rest anyway!
They will HAVE to listen when the Ginger Beers and the Drivers start some proper action.
They lost an estimated $150M in '08 during the last Engineering dispute and then gave the Ginger Beers everything they originally asked for. I wonder how much they wanna lose this time.
It's not going to be easy but these are skilled employees with Brains who will not lay down and be trodden on by Management anymore!
They will HAVE to listen when the Ginger Beers and the Drivers start some proper action.
They lost an estimated $150M in '08 during the last Engineering dispute and then gave the Ginger Beers everything they originally asked for. I wonder how much they wanna lose this time.
It's not going to be easy but these are skilled employees with Brains who will not lay down and be trodden on by Management anymore!
It's not the Rat I don't like, it's LIBM...
I get it you don't like the rat.
I always used to book Ansett, because it started in a town where I used to live. Then I always used to book QANTAS, because it was Australian.
Same way I drive a Ford because it's the only thing designed and made in Australia (and it's not as awful as the Holden fans would have you believe...)
Other airlines planes are just as old. But nowhere near as dirty and uncomfortable!
Or expensive: SYD <--> SIN on a 388 in August:
Singapore Airlines: AU$843.52
QANTAS: AU$937.84
It's not competitive not because it can't, but because it won't. It's choosing not to.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Land of Idiocy
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Dick is an expert"......mmmmmm.....
well if his opinions are as good as his airspace design we are in a whole lot of trouble.....I laugh each time australians say we have experts here....after operating overseas for a decade i can clearly say we have the worlds worst systems and infrastructure in place.........thats right worlds second best....to the rest of the world =....what a disgrace
well if his opinions are as good as his airspace design we are in a whole lot of trouble.....I laugh each time australians say we have experts here....after operating overseas for a decade i can clearly say we have the worlds worst systems and infrastructure in place.........thats right worlds second best....to the rest of the world =....what a disgrace
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dicks involvement with the rat goes back to the days where he flew his helo around the world remember.
He is a chairmans club lounge member.
God, what a toxic, corrupt and utterly disgraceful mess Australian aviation has become. I am glad I am going to be out of it soon after Aug 24.
I was in GA when Dick dismantled Flight Service and all the other associated protections in the name of 'affordable safety"
I have been in various Airlines since, and had to listen to his misinformed dribble on this and other forums. As far as PPRUNE goes, too many of us too scared to properly take him on after that poor girl was sued for libel.
At least one good thing about being a foreign contractor is that I will be outside of a system that he has anything to do with.
As Field Marshall Erwin Rommel once said "there is nothing worse then a well meaning amateur with resources"
He is a chairmans club lounge member.
God, what a toxic, corrupt and utterly disgraceful mess Australian aviation has become. I am glad I am going to be out of it soon after Aug 24.
I was in GA when Dick dismantled Flight Service and all the other associated protections in the name of 'affordable safety"
I have been in various Airlines since, and had to listen to his misinformed dribble on this and other forums. As far as PPRUNE goes, too many of us too scared to properly take him on after that poor girl was sued for libel.
At least one good thing about being a foreign contractor is that I will be outside of a system that he has anything to do with.
As Field Marshall Erwin Rommel once said "there is nothing worse then a well meaning amateur with resources"
Last edited by mohikan; 14th Jul 2011 at 08:29.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: sYDNEY
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From one of dicks earlier posts...the communist chinese government restrict access to hKG to protect CX....Who do they restrict. was trying to think of who I HAVN't seen there. We have Qantas/Air New Zealand/Virgin Atlantic/British Airways/Emirates/Qatar/Singapore/Thai/United/Air Canada/Lufthansa/Air France/South African/ Air India/Aeroflot/ANA/Japan Airlines/Finnair/Phillapines/Etihad/Korean Airlines/KLM/Air pacific/Jetstar Asia?hong Kong Airlines and Express + all the local carriers. yep the chinese really have the reins on tight there don't they. If you dont have "less" on you have.......
The QF pilots dont aim for the dirt so why is the management.
The QF pilots dont aim for the dirt so why is the management.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sunny side up
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, I agree that these airlines pay the pilots and a handful of licensed maintenance engineers really good money. The problem is that just about everyone else is on wages and salaries that would not be legal in Australia.
If everything in every industry gets off shored a whole bunch of us will be unemployable. What do we do then? No jobs for garbos or checkout chicks anymore, they've been replaced by machines. Are us workers just unviable as a group? Should we march into the sea for the good of the country, or just sit around collecting the dole and voting Labor until the country goes broke, a la the UK? Every 'basic' job that is offshored is a basic job lost to an Australian, probably a dumb
Australian but nonetheless a worker who supports him/herself and maybe a family. If it's not viable to employ Australians, then what is the viability of the country? Should we all move Back Home (because Home's doing so well at the moment, at least they've stopped throwing grenades this week 
)? At the moment I'm on reasonably good money for what I consider is an important, albiet basic aviation job. Maybe someone above me will think otherwise, which is why I and many other aviation workers lie awake every now and then (usually after a few wines
) thinking, what's the future hold? Was this a good idea or should I have gone into logistics or the dreaded mines, where I can drink too much sitting alone in a desert wasteland and stuff up what family connections I have left? Will we all be sold out like spongecake to offshore companies or casual subcontractors because some beancounter says we're unviable? With respect, this is academic to you. You don't work in aviation, you aren't threatened with job cuts or unviableness, you've made your millions (and I don't begrudge a cent of it, good for you). If you wonder why posters come across as angry and upset it's because a lot of people are scared. Scared that we'll go the way of the cartwheel makers and blacksmiths and be left scrounging for a job as a casual security guard saying 'hey, once I was something. I worked in aviation. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody [On the Waterfront]". You don't have that fear. You don't frantically study part-time around shift work to future-proof your career because you've already made it, you're already a contender.
By the way, many of us stay anonymous because our employers would be most displeased to see us commenting on here. You have the guts to post under your own name and full marks for that, but you also have the freedom. No-one's going to sack you for it. It doesn't cost you anything.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 14th Jul 2011 at 11:27.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Frozen Chunks (Cloud Cuckoo Land)
Age: 17
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Singapore Airlines: AU$843.52
QANTAS: AU$937.84
QANTAS: AU$937.84
Don't be thinking that SQ is particularly safe. And as for economy service..... well in all honesty the times i have been on them, they have a lot more cabin crew down the back, but the service and food was worse than QF. (And I rarely defend QF food or service!)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The World
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is the result of the politically supported idea of GLOBALISATION, big money pushing all workers to third world standards while they reap huge personal benefits. I do not have any empathy for QF but if our government does not protect Australian industries this will not stop until our lifestyle is reduced to that of those in Asia.