QF to EK on LWOP
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We have been the best in industry with no major mishaps except for QF 1 which was the S/O's fault.
Everyone knows it was the S/O's wife who was at fault. Get your facts straight next time you twit!!!!
Standard.
Some of us actually do this job because we love it! Shock horror!
I for one am happy to fly as much as I can. I started the hard way with QF as a cadet years ago and I know what its like in the real world.
EK will benefit from the vast experience of the QF pilots. QF is the loser here. I have heard QF pilots with A380 time will actually be promoted to Captain once they arrive in Dubai.
Some of us actually do this job because we love it! Shock horror!
I for one am happy to fly as much as I can. I started the hard way with QF as a cadet years ago and I know what its like in the real world.
EK will benefit from the vast experience of the QF pilots. QF is the loser here. I have heard QF pilots with A380 time will actually be promoted to Captain once they arrive in Dubai.
And as they are amongst some of the most experienced international drivers in the world they can stay in SYD and pick up the aircraft from there and bring it back after a couple days layover in DXB.
Mohammed bin Rashad Al Maktoum shall great their arrival at the airport and express his eternal gratefulness to the QF pilots who sacrificed so much to come and work for this developing airline.
LR 3,
Yes, I can see your point, but it has ever been so. QF pilots saying that J* pilots shouldn't accept the crap conditions changed nothing. Virgin guys saying pilots shouldn't accept the crap VOZ conditions changed nothing. Pilots are not altruistic - they will do what feels right for them and that's it sadly!
I think most QF guys who are thinking of taking the EK LWOP offer are not doing it for career enhancement. They would be doing it because they have hud a GUTFUL of the pathetic management of QF, the disgraceful behaviour of Joyce, CLifford and Buchanan and would just love to raise them the middle finger as they head out the door, hopefully to an orgnaization where, for a few years, the atmoshpere is not as absolutely toxic as Qantas. We joined Qantas because it WAS a great organization that offered a well-paid, career with advancement potential. The TOOLS named above have destroyed that!!
Yes, I can see your point, but it has ever been so. QF pilots saying that J* pilots shouldn't accept the crap conditions changed nothing. Virgin guys saying pilots shouldn't accept the crap VOZ conditions changed nothing. Pilots are not altruistic - they will do what feels right for them and that's it sadly!
I think most QF guys who are thinking of taking the EK LWOP offer are not doing it for career enhancement. They would be doing it because they have hud a GUTFUL of the pathetic management of QF, the disgraceful behaviour of Joyce, CLifford and Buchanan and would just love to raise them the middle finger as they head out the door, hopefully to an orgnaization where, for a few years, the atmoshpere is not as absolutely toxic as Qantas. We joined Qantas because it WAS a great organization that offered a well-paid, career with advancement potential. The TOOLS named above have destroyed that!!
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Astroboy55,
Initially the numbers are around 200, but once the offshore operation gets setup ( several months to a few years to get fully rolling) the surplus will be around 1000 ( I heard 950 from a source), of course this is an initial estimate there are many variables to the equation, ie how many take this EK thing, how many retire, how many accept positions in the new offshore SIA wannabe airline, how many agree to go to J* etc, they will want to minimise any reduncy of course to line their own pockets but they will try everything in the book to avoid it too! Either way looking long term I believe QF is doomed, they cannot expect to compete just because they base their operations in some other port, so I suggest bleed them with long term PIA and hold out and make them pay the generous redundancy payments as per the award, ( and I heard a heap have gone on long term sick leave too to burn that up) then just go and work somewhere else, you'll have a nice cash bonus that year and you can replicate what Dixon did maybe minus 99% haha!
Initially the numbers are around 200, but once the offshore operation gets setup ( several months to a few years to get fully rolling) the surplus will be around 1000 ( I heard 950 from a source), of course this is an initial estimate there are many variables to the equation, ie how many take this EK thing, how many retire, how many accept positions in the new offshore SIA wannabe airline, how many agree to go to J* etc, they will want to minimise any reduncy of course to line their own pockets but they will try everything in the book to avoid it too! Either way looking long term I believe QF is doomed, they cannot expect to compete just because they base their operations in some other port, so I suggest bleed them with long term PIA and hold out and make them pay the generous redundancy payments as per the award, ( and I heard a heap have gone on long term sick leave too to burn that up) then just go and work somewhere else, you'll have a nice cash bonus that year and you can replicate what Dixon did maybe minus 99% haha!
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Just a quick heads up for you QF guys. Having just done my "Time" in EK you will need more than 3 years LWOP from QF to complete your bond as it does not start going down till you start flying.
I would suggest 3.5 years to be on the safe side.
I would suggest 3.5 years to be on the safe side.
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Your Welcome -NOT
Make no mistake that there is one, and only one reason for EK approaching QF, its because they can no longer get pilots, and they don't want to pay the going rate to attract them.
And that's after they lowered the hours from 4500hs to 2500hrs total time, and are ringing guys who have 2000hrs. THEY ARE DESPERATE.
Air Arabia pays a Captain with 3000hrs on type (57000dhs/month) for a 92 hour month. All of our FOs upgrading have 3000hrs on type as it is a company requirement for upgrade. They do this because that's the minimum they need to pay to attract the pilots they need.
Note that up until recently new joining EK FOs had well in access of the minimum hours required to join Air Arabia as Captains. So whats my point, the point is that EK have been getting away with substandard wages for far too long and its about time they started paying us the going rate, and re instated our overtime, credit for leave, our availability of leave, our availability of leave tickets (4 week wait followed by wait list b%$sh&t), decent allowances, the heavy crew we need on numerous bu&***** 9hr plus flights in the middle of the night with 2 pilots, and the pilots we need to bring our hours down from 95 a month to give our lives back again. WHERE SICK OF IT.
And less of the new age GQ, and Mens Health reading FOs woozes we've recruited lately.
Yes 150 or so guys from QF won't make much of a difference, but you may be surprised on day one to be meeting your colleagues from what ever s*&t holes from around the world they've managed to con into the same deal.
On principle it is an insult for those of us here who showed the commitment to resign from our previous airlines and make a life here in Dubai, and tow the line with all aspects of life here both within and outside of the airline. Those on contract will never experience those sort of pressures knowing they have a guaranteed position back home. Rather come here and sit it out while your seniority number improves back home, have a good time and don't give a s*&t.
In my opinion you should have no position on the seniority list until you resign and join EK proper, to do otherwise is an insult to those who have. I for one didn't have the luxury of a three year trial to decide if I liked it or not. And yes you will be eroding our conditions of service.
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT 150 EK PILOTS, AND ANOTHER 300 FROM SAY ITALY, SPAIN AND BANGLADESH TURNING UP ON QFs DOOR STEP WHILE YOUR UNION NEGOTIATES FOR HIGH WAGES.
We'd be welcome with open arms I'm sure.
And that's after they lowered the hours from 4500hs to 2500hrs total time, and are ringing guys who have 2000hrs. THEY ARE DESPERATE.
Air Arabia pays a Captain with 3000hrs on type (57000dhs/month) for a 92 hour month. All of our FOs upgrading have 3000hrs on type as it is a company requirement for upgrade. They do this because that's the minimum they need to pay to attract the pilots they need.
Note that up until recently new joining EK FOs had well in access of the minimum hours required to join Air Arabia as Captains. So whats my point, the point is that EK have been getting away with substandard wages for far too long and its about time they started paying us the going rate, and re instated our overtime, credit for leave, our availability of leave, our availability of leave tickets (4 week wait followed by wait list b%$sh&t), decent allowances, the heavy crew we need on numerous bu&***** 9hr plus flights in the middle of the night with 2 pilots, and the pilots we need to bring our hours down from 95 a month to give our lives back again. WHERE SICK OF IT.
And less of the new age GQ, and Mens Health reading FOs woozes we've recruited lately.
Yes 150 or so guys from QF won't make much of a difference, but you may be surprised on day one to be meeting your colleagues from what ever s*&t holes from around the world they've managed to con into the same deal.
On principle it is an insult for those of us here who showed the commitment to resign from our previous airlines and make a life here in Dubai, and tow the line with all aspects of life here both within and outside of the airline. Those on contract will never experience those sort of pressures knowing they have a guaranteed position back home. Rather come here and sit it out while your seniority number improves back home, have a good time and don't give a s*&t.
In my opinion you should have no position on the seniority list until you resign and join EK proper, to do otherwise is an insult to those who have. I for one didn't have the luxury of a three year trial to decide if I liked it or not. And yes you will be eroding our conditions of service.
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT 150 EK PILOTS, AND ANOTHER 300 FROM SAY ITALY, SPAIN AND BANGLADESH TURNING UP ON QFs DOOR STEP WHILE YOUR UNION NEGOTIATES FOR HIGH WAGES.
We'd be welcome with open arms I'm sure.
What allaru said sounds fair- no EK seniority number without a resignation from QF- then you won't be detracting from our conditions. The shortage is really starting to bite here- if you come under any but normal recruitment processes you are a management finger in one of the many leaking holes, effectively doing to our T & C's whet JQ have done to yours. No more moral high ground lads.
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The Air NZ LWOP deal released how many? Six? (or Sux depending on your elocution).
QF may cough a few more than Air NZ but it's not going to be a significant dent in EK's requirements. Regardless, EK will get it's pilots from somewhere and I'd rather have a competent operator that I can choose (or not) to have a beer/coffee with in the seat next to me.
It's not only Australian pilots that use "my last employer" or any other line that may or may not be appropriate or tactful. I will continue to ignore or deal with it using normal standards of wit or sarcasm.
Regarding the J* situation, it's abhorrent what has happened but the roots began in 1989 and has continued ever since. The origins of '89 in particular evolved not because of pilot action, but rather government and media moguls desire to dismantle conditions of a select group of employers for whatever their own personal satisfaction was. It wasn't my dispute but it makes for an interesting case study in the history of industrial relations.
The global devolution of pilot conditions evolved before '89 and has continued in a downward swinging pendulum towards market forces which ironically is set by ourselves. Bitching at each other will achieve nothing, maintaining our dignity and professionalism will. However, there are airlines that I will never work for out of principle, Jetstar (any version) & Ryanair for a start. If I wanted to be a gigolo, I wouldn't wear a pilots uniform as a disguise. Sorry, I let my dignity slip. I would have added a couple of other ME airlines as well but desisted for fear of class action.
Airlines need professional operators and will pay for it accordingly. Conditions may not reflect our wish list, but there is jack **** that we can do about it regardless of our employment legislation. We now live in a global work environment with more or less total loss of unity, even in Australia.
Emirates need a lot of pilots in the future and a few more skippies will barely make a dent. If our conditions are so bad, then you should be morally obliged to say no. Not because your refusal will benefit the Emirates pilot group, but simply because it isn't worth your while. If it works for you, then come on over with an open mind.
If you're a half decent person, can fly without putting fear into my family and prepared to drink non Australian Beer, I'll even buy the first round.
QF may cough a few more than Air NZ but it's not going to be a significant dent in EK's requirements. Regardless, EK will get it's pilots from somewhere and I'd rather have a competent operator that I can choose (or not) to have a beer/coffee with in the seat next to me.
It's not only Australian pilots that use "my last employer" or any other line that may or may not be appropriate or tactful. I will continue to ignore or deal with it using normal standards of wit or sarcasm.
Regarding the J* situation, it's abhorrent what has happened but the roots began in 1989 and has continued ever since. The origins of '89 in particular evolved not because of pilot action, but rather government and media moguls desire to dismantle conditions of a select group of employers for whatever their own personal satisfaction was. It wasn't my dispute but it makes for an interesting case study in the history of industrial relations.
The global devolution of pilot conditions evolved before '89 and has continued in a downward swinging pendulum towards market forces which ironically is set by ourselves. Bitching at each other will achieve nothing, maintaining our dignity and professionalism will. However, there are airlines that I will never work for out of principle, Jetstar (any version) & Ryanair for a start. If I wanted to be a gigolo, I wouldn't wear a pilots uniform as a disguise. Sorry, I let my dignity slip. I would have added a couple of other ME airlines as well but desisted for fear of class action.
Airlines need professional operators and will pay for it accordingly. Conditions may not reflect our wish list, but there is jack **** that we can do about it regardless of our employment legislation. We now live in a global work environment with more or less total loss of unity, even in Australia.
Emirates need a lot of pilots in the future and a few more skippies will barely make a dent. If our conditions are so bad, then you should be morally obliged to say no. Not because your refusal will benefit the Emirates pilot group, but simply because it isn't worth your while. If it works for you, then come on over with an open mind.
If you're a half decent person, can fly without putting fear into my family and prepared to drink non Australian Beer, I'll even buy the first round.
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The posters comparing Qantas guys going to Emirates to Jetstar undercutting Qantas are on a strange trip.
They will be on standard conditions of EK employment, no undercutting as EK are paying at the top end in the middle east?
Hopefully you all can get improvements in the next few years as pilot shortages hit.
Unfortunately if Qantas management continues on it's suicidal path there will be many QF guys/gals around to soak up a shortage.
Emirates pilots who come to Oz to fly for Jetstar and Tiger ARE undercutting conditions here compared to Qantas and even Virgin.
Ok ,I understand why they want to fly here at home.
Those slagging off about "skygods" and Bangkok should look at the Tiger situation here, an airline shut down largely over two incidents by an ex EK 340 pilot!
EK will get some experienced guys, the pilots will get to see some different things for a few years, or stay for a carreer change.
They will be on standard conditions of EK employment, no undercutting as EK are paying at the top end in the middle east?
Hopefully you all can get improvements in the next few years as pilot shortages hit.
Unfortunately if Qantas management continues on it's suicidal path there will be many QF guys/gals around to soak up a shortage.
Emirates pilots who come to Oz to fly for Jetstar and Tiger ARE undercutting conditions here compared to Qantas and even Virgin.
Ok ,I understand why they want to fly here at home.
Those slagging off about "skygods" and Bangkok should look at the Tiger situation here, an airline shut down largely over two incidents by an ex EK 340 pilot!
EK will get some experienced guys, the pilots will get to see some different things for a few years, or stay for a carreer change.
I can not see how this undermines any EK pilot. 700 pilots will be hired in the next 12 months regardless if they are QF on LWOP, Air Malta guys made redundant, or another bakers dozen of the USA RJ driver type. Guys have been joining here on LWOP from carriers in Europe and the US for over a decade. Good on em. Some have gone back, some have stayed. Everyone goes through the same selection process (QF guys you don't have to pay to do this one though 
), and if/when you pass you are more than welcome.
Things to think about:
1. Pretty large set up cost moving over here; cars, furniture etc, is three years enough time to recoup this on a FO salary? You will need to reverse it again when you go home. Single guys will do fine, married with kids may not.
2. Beware the TAX man. Make sure you pay money to an expert on the advice you get for this. Your everyday tax accountant has no clue. LWOP will really muddy the water on the non resident status. I have met a Doctor that took two years LWOP and worked for good coin in Qatar. His life is miserable at the moment as on submitting his first tax return on return to Oz, after returning to his original employer, he was informed he was to be investigated with respect his non residence status for the previous years. This would be a real show stopper if you can't get an iron clad ruling.
Its a cr@p day when this happens to a flag carrier. We should have beaten these accountant airline ruling types up a little more when they were at school.
The Don
), and if/when you pass you are more than welcome.Things to think about:
1. Pretty large set up cost moving over here; cars, furniture etc, is three years enough time to recoup this on a FO salary? You will need to reverse it again when you go home. Single guys will do fine, married with kids may not.
2. Beware the TAX man. Make sure you pay money to an expert on the advice you get for this. Your everyday tax accountant has no clue. LWOP will really muddy the water on the non resident status. I have met a Doctor that took two years LWOP and worked for good coin in Qatar. His life is miserable at the moment as on submitting his first tax return on return to Oz, after returning to his original employer, he was informed he was to be investigated with respect his non residence status for the previous years. This would be a real show stopper if you can't get an iron clad ruling.
Its a cr@p day when this happens to a flag carrier. We should have beaten these accountant airline ruling types up a little more when they were at school.
The Don
C'mon guys. The sky is falling in on the blokes down here. There is now a lifeline to somewhere else (if you go I would bet none will come back), and you guys start rattling on about some imaginary pay rise. Yep, the QF blokes are the selfish ones.
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Small piece of ancient history. When Ansett folded the first time, 12 or so ex-Ansett 767 Capt/FO's came to QF on a 6-12 (forget exactly) month contract as direct entry pilots. No doubt the deal was agreed between the company and AIPA.
One particular FO (g'day Slider) jumped through the QF hoops to get a full time job and by the time his contract expired had the seniority to bid for a Cairns base FO position. Probably the only QF pilot never to be an SO.
The numbers and time frame are very different, but just showing this sort of thing has happened at QF.
One particular FO (g'day Slider) jumped through the QF hoops to get a full time job and by the time his contract expired had the seniority to bid for a Cairns base FO position. Probably the only QF pilot never to be an SO.
The numbers and time frame are very different, but just showing this sort of thing has happened at QF.
Someone may have mentioned it earlier but it's a remarkable coincidence that this FSO came out late on a Friday afternoon on the weekend that the details of the carbox tax are being released.
No coverage in the weekend papers and sure as eggs there will be nothing tomorrow.
When QANTAS is gifting trained pilots to a major international competitor it would normally be newsworthy, especially in light of the vote for PIA around job security. Well, it's not newsworthy this weekend!
No coverage in the weekend papers and sure as eggs there will be nothing tomorrow.
When QANTAS is gifting trained pilots to a major international competitor it would normally be newsworthy, especially in light of the vote for PIA around job security. Well, it's not newsworthy this weekend!
No coverage in the press at the moment, but wait until the PIA results are back on Monday, and the press get hold of this, it could be pure gold for publicity. It actually makes Emirates look good for taking Qantas pilots. Watch Olivia put her spin on this!
I wonder it JT will have to use the same speil on Emirates flights safety demo's soon!
I think Emirates will have enough desperate applicants from Qantas pilots soon that i think 30 - 40 guys coming over under LWOP will be the least of your problems if you think they will reduce your T & C's.
I wonder it JT will have to use the same speil on Emirates flights safety demo's soon!
I think Emirates will have enough desperate applicants from Qantas pilots soon that i think 30 - 40 guys coming over under LWOP will be the least of your problems if you think they will reduce your T & C's.
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What needs to be understood is that some in the EK pilot group have been running an active campaign on this and other internet fora to dissuade pilots coming to EK.
The reason they have done this is to try and improve their own position with the company. Fair enough, I would do the same if I was in their shoes.
Demonising pilots who want to join the Airline gets you nowhere though. Qantas is about to throw 1000 pilots out on the street.
Think about that for a moment.
The guys and girls, who have done nothing except been loyal and dedicated employees, are being made redundant simply because Joyce figures he can get lower cost pilots in Singapore.
In no way will this effect airfares or shareholder returns. What it will effect is senior management KPI's, and therefore bonuses.
So if some of the 1000 end up at EK, so be it. Those that come will adapt, and will be keen to do it "the EK way".
By all means keep up your campaign. Just recognise the real enemy is Airline management, not your fellow pilots.
The reason they have done this is to try and improve their own position with the company. Fair enough, I would do the same if I was in their shoes.
Demonising pilots who want to join the Airline gets you nowhere though. Qantas is about to throw 1000 pilots out on the street.
Think about that for a moment.
The guys and girls, who have done nothing except been loyal and dedicated employees, are being made redundant simply because Joyce figures he can get lower cost pilots in Singapore.
In no way will this effect airfares or shareholder returns. What it will effect is senior management KPI's, and therefore bonuses.
So if some of the 1000 end up at EK, so be it. Those that come will adapt, and will be keen to do it "the EK way".
By all means keep up your campaign. Just recognise the real enemy is Airline management, not your fellow pilots.