Globalisation debt & banking
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Jabawocky, post#337 - brilliant analogy. Please note, Labor & Liberal are just two bookends to frame arguments within defined limits - simply a herding device to stop you questioning what lies beyond "the system" (read "their system"). The vast majority of the topics about the nature of money and what it represents covered in this entire thread are not taught in schools or universities, written in the media or mentioned by politicians. Only the bankers actually understand it, all enabled by the [their] Central banking system. The modern monetary system is simply a wealth extraction tool, to strip the labour of the world and concentrate it into the hands of a very few. Politics is simply a sideshow to keep the masses distracted, the modern version of bread & circuses.
Karl Marx, Frederick Engles, The Communist Manifesto, 1848.
It is the governments exclusive control & monopoly (legal tender laws) that enables the total and utter control of the populous, exactly as Marx suggested.
We are already living in a socialist state, with rules & regulations proliferating heading towards a police state. The modern term for socialism is "progressive democracy". Language is very important, Marx was extremely careful to define in excruciation detail every term he used with exacting precision. Modern propaganda machine uses exactly the opposite method, it relies on the common vernacular meaning to create a [false] impression, whilst actually meaning something else.
Here is an excellent criticism of Marx: FOFOA: The Debtors and the Savers . It drills down in the nature of the class war (and how Marx got it wrong), it wasn't rich vs poor, but "Hard Money" vs "Soft Money")
- Lord Thomas MacCauley, May 23, 1857
Prime Minister Thatcher Feb. 5, 1976,
What happens if Greece if it exits the Euro?- if you can make it through this it will give you a very good idea. JPMorgan Estimates Immediate Losses From Greek Exit Could Reach 400 Billion
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
It is the governments exclusive control & monopoly (legal tender laws) that enables the total and utter control of the populous, exactly as Marx suggested.
We are already living in a socialist state, with rules & regulations proliferating heading towards a police state. The modern term for socialism is "progressive democracy". Language is very important, Marx was extremely careful to define in excruciation detail every term he used with exacting precision. Modern propaganda machine uses exactly the opposite method, it relies on the common vernacular meaning to create a [false] impression, whilst actually meaning something else.
Here is an excellent criticism of Marx: FOFOA: The Debtors and the Savers . It drills down in the nature of the class war (and how Marx got it wrong), it wasn't rich vs poor, but "Hard Money" vs "Soft Money")
A democracy cannot survive as a permanent form of government. It can last only until its citizens discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority (who vote) will vote for those candidates promising the greatest benefits from the public purse, with the result that a democracy will always collapse from loose fiscal policies, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest democratic nations has been 200 years.
and Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them.
What happens if Greece if it exits the Euro?- if you can make it through this it will give you a very good idea. JPMorgan Estimates Immediate Losses From Greek Exit Could Reach 400 Billion
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Tick tock $$$$$ Tick tock
Two interesting articles. Tick tock indeed....
And
Greece will run out of money soon, warns deputy prime minister
Greece's deputy prime minister has said the country will run out of money in six weeks unless it honours its bitterly-disputed EU bailout deal.
By Andrew Gilligan,
Athens
7:00PM BST 12 May
2012
Speaking exclusively to The Sunday Telegraph, Theodoros Pangalos said he was "very much afraid of what is going to happen" after Greek voters rejected the deal in elections last Sunday.
"The majority of the people voted for a very strange mental construction," he said. "We want to be in the EU and the euro, but we don't want to pay anything for the past."
The main beneficiary of the election, the hard-Left Syriza coalition, came a startling second on a promise to tear up the deal, which promises EU loans to keep massively-indebted Greece afloat, but demands crippling spending cuts in return. Germany, the principal lender, has said it will stop payments if Greece breaks its promises on spending.
Mr Pangalos warned: "There is a school of thought that says the Germans are bluffing. They need Greece and will never throw us out of the eurozone. But what will happen, which is almost certain, is they will not give us the money to pay our debts.
"We will be in wild bankruptcy, out-of-control bankruptcy. The state will not be able to pay salaries and pensions. This is not recognised by the citizens. We have got until June before we run out of money.
"We have been spending the future for half a century. What [the anti-bailout forces] are really asking from the EU is not just to pay our bills, but also to pay for the deficit which we are still creating.
"I'm sure the Germans don't want Greece to leave the euro. What I don't know is how much they're willing to pay. It depends on the German man on the street. Is he willing to pay his taxes to save Greece? I doubt it."
After each of the top three parties at the election failed to form a government, Greece's president, Karolos Papoulias, will on Sunday hold last-ditch talks to cobble together a national unity coalition. The alternative is a fresh election next month which polls show Syriza is likely to win.
Mr Pangalos compared Syriza's charismatic leader, Alexis Tsipras, to Venezuela's Hugo Chavez."Are the Germans going to pay for a guy that
wants to imitate Chavez?" he said. "Except that Chavez has oil, and an
army."
The deputy prime minister also warned that chaos could boost the neo-fascist Golden Dawn party, which won an unprecedented seven per cent of the vote, and 21 seats, in Sunday's election.
"In the places where the police voted, the fascists got 25 per cent," he said. "They are a serious threat. They have used violence already – you don't know where it will stop.
"You know how it happened in Germany – it started with the Jews, then the Communists, then everybody – it could happen here. This is the country, after the Soviet Union and Germany itself, with the bigest prcentage of [Second World War] casualties in its population."
Mr Pangalos's Pasok, the Greek Socialist Party, lost three-quarters of its seats at the election after voters blamed it for the bailout deal and the cuts, which have caused enormous hardship but failed significantly to reduce Greece's debt.
The economy has shrunk by 8.5 per cent in the last year. More than a fifth of the population is out of work and youth unemployment is almost 54 per cent.
Pasok, together with the main conservative party, New Democracy, previously won up to four-fifths of the vote. Last week, the two established pro-bailout parties were reduced to 32 per cent between them.
The streets are calmer since the election. Though Greeks are fearful, thre's also satisfaction at the blow they've dealt to their former rulers.
But the casualties of the bailout are everywhere. On the pavements, junkies openly inject in the middle of the day. And what is striking about Athens beggars is how clean and well-groomed so many are: not sereotypical street-dwellers, but working and professional people deep
down on their luck.
As we talked to Mr Pangalos in an upmarket cafe, one man sold lottery tickets wearing a very decent suit.
Yiannis Bournos, Syriza's European policy spokesman, told The Sunday Telegraph that Greece could afford to reject the bailout deal because European policymakers dared not risk Greece triggering a domino effect – and a potential depression - across Europe.
"Mr Schaeuble [Germany's finance minister] is pretending to be the fearless cowboy on the radio, saying the euro is secure [against a Greek exit]. But there's no way they will kick us out," he said.
"If we left the euro, the financial markets cold attack Italy. If you owe 3000 euros to the bank and don't pay, they will kill you. If you owe 10 billion euros, they will do everything for you."
He criticised the deputy prime minister's remarks, saying: "Mr Pangalos is in his own sphere. When reality does not agree with him, reality has a problem. It's unbelievable to see the same representatives of the banking interests and of neoliberalism saying that nothing can change. It reminds me of religious fundamentalism. There have been so many changes in Europe in the last two weeks."
Mr Bournos said that even if the EU cut off payments the Greek government could still pay salaries and pensions from its domestic tax revenues. He said the country would seek alternative sources of financing from China, Russia and the Middle East.
Left-wingers hope that the election of a new socialist president in France, together with concerns expressed in Italy and the Netherlands about the austerity package, will soften hearts in Berlin. At least in public, however, German officials continued cranking up the pressure yesterday.
"If Athens doesn't stand by its word, that is a democratic decision," said the Bundesbank chief, Jens Weidmann, in an interview with the Suddeutsche Zeitung newspaper. "But that means the basis for further financial aid falls away."
Mr Weidmann insisted the consquences of Greece leaving the euro "would be more serious for Greece than the rest of the eurozone".
It's still possible that everyone could pull back from the brink. The Germans could soften their demands – next month, Greece is supposed to be outlining further billions in cuts, something which even pro-bailout politicians are starting to balk at. The Greek Left could change it simplistic stand. The can could be kicked down the road some more.
But the euro's fundamental problems will remain. And it's equally possible that the EU will merely use the time to erect bigger financial walls around Greece, hoping they can leave it to its fate.
Planning for a Greek exit, now seen as likely by many, has stepped up a gear. Vodafone, a major presence in the Greek telecoms market, said it now sends all cash earned in Greece to the UK "every evening."
Andrew Witty, chief executive of Glaxo SmithKline, said no cash was left in Greece or "most European countries." Several other British multinationals have made similar statements.
Jonathan Tepper, an economist with Variant Perception, said a debt default and Greek euro exit would happen at only moments' notice after weeks of denials by all concerned.
"To avoid immediate runs on banks, it would be done in a 'surprise' announcement over a weekend when markets and banks are closed," he said. "If necessary, Monday and Tuesday would be declared bank
holidays as well."
During this period, diplomats in Athens have been told, cash machines would be turned off and all banks closed. Inside, staff would be "redenominating" euro notes into the new drachma, probably by
rubber-stamping them. Capital controls would be imposed to stop Greeks
transferring money out of the country electronically and border checks would be reinstated to prevent them taking out unstamped euros in
suitcases.
Mr Tepper is one of a growing number of economists who believe that the so-called "Grexit" might actually be better than years and years of EU-mandated misery.
"In the past century, 69 countries have exited currency areas with little downward volatility," he says. "The experience of emerging-market countries, such as Argentina, Russia and the 'Asian tigers,' shows that the pain of devaluation would be brief, and rapid growth and recovery would follow."
Greece, however, is not Russia, Argentina or the Far East, with massive mineral wealth and untapped human capital. And everyone concedes that exit would, in the short and medium term, cause Greeks even more
terrible pain.
Most economists think that a new, free-floating drachma would immediately crash by up to 50 per cent against the euro and other currencies, effectively halving the value of everyone's savings and spelling catastrophe for those on fixed incomes, like pensioners.
EU diplomats in Athens have been warned to expect substantial disorder during this period, which would, said one, be "a dream moment for Golden Dawn".
The Sunday Telegraph on Saturday joined the neo-fascists on "patrol" – their word – around Attiki, a poor, inner-city Athens neighbourhood which Golden Dawn says it has "cleaned up".
"This square used to be occupied," said the patrol leader, Nassos Rndekakos. "Full of illegal immigrants. We took it back. We just emptied the square of everyone: Greeks, foreigners, whatever."
But what if they refused to leave?
"There's a good way and a bad way," said Mr Rendekakos. "We know both ways."
They weren't in their black T-shirts on Saturday, but they were still pretty easy to spot. Their hair was shaved at the sides but not at the top; they wore near-identical sunglasses, plus biker jackets and gloves, though the day was warm and sunny.
Certainly the immigrants, not that there are many on these streets just now, knew who they were, and crossed the road or stepped quietly into doorways as they passed.
They weren't Nazis, they insisted, just nationalists."It's not Hitler we like," said Mr Rendekakos. "It's the way he used to make the best for his country. Hitler took a country with so much debt, unemployment, just before the edge, as we are here – and he managed to make that country great."
On Golden Dawn, there are signs of what might be termed buyers' remorse.The Sunday Telegraph found a number of people who'd voted for them but claimed they now regretted it, and their score in the latest post-election polls is down. Many other residents, however, were genuinely grateful to the fascists.
"Six months ago, no-one could walk here," said Christos Yiannis, drinking coffee in Attiki's main square. "Last summer, we didn't come out like this at all. The police did nothing. Golden Dawn cleaned up the squares and made them human for people to enjoy, because the state is
absent. The state has collapsed."
As two little girls rode pink tricycles round our table, and the old men sat reading their newspapers in the sun, it was tempting, so tempting, to believe there are easy answers to tough problems – none tougher than the mess Greece now finds itself in.
By Andrew Gilligan,
Athens
7:00PM BST 12 May
2012
Speaking exclusively to The Sunday Telegraph, Theodoros Pangalos said he was "very much afraid of what is going to happen" after Greek voters rejected the deal in elections last Sunday.
"The majority of the people voted for a very strange mental construction," he said. "We want to be in the EU and the euro, but we don't want to pay anything for the past."
The main beneficiary of the election, the hard-Left Syriza coalition, came a startling second on a promise to tear up the deal, which promises EU loans to keep massively-indebted Greece afloat, but demands crippling spending cuts in return. Germany, the principal lender, has said it will stop payments if Greece breaks its promises on spending.
Mr Pangalos warned: "There is a school of thought that says the Germans are bluffing. They need Greece and will never throw us out of the eurozone. But what will happen, which is almost certain, is they will not give us the money to pay our debts.
"We will be in wild bankruptcy, out-of-control bankruptcy. The state will not be able to pay salaries and pensions. This is not recognised by the citizens. We have got until June before we run out of money.
"We have been spending the future for half a century. What [the anti-bailout forces] are really asking from the EU is not just to pay our bills, but also to pay for the deficit which we are still creating.
"I'm sure the Germans don't want Greece to leave the euro. What I don't know is how much they're willing to pay. It depends on the German man on the street. Is he willing to pay his taxes to save Greece? I doubt it."
After each of the top three parties at the election failed to form a government, Greece's president, Karolos Papoulias, will on Sunday hold last-ditch talks to cobble together a national unity coalition. The alternative is a fresh election next month which polls show Syriza is likely to win.
Mr Pangalos compared Syriza's charismatic leader, Alexis Tsipras, to Venezuela's Hugo Chavez."Are the Germans going to pay for a guy that
wants to imitate Chavez?" he said. "Except that Chavez has oil, and an
army."
The deputy prime minister also warned that chaos could boost the neo-fascist Golden Dawn party, which won an unprecedented seven per cent of the vote, and 21 seats, in Sunday's election.
"In the places where the police voted, the fascists got 25 per cent," he said. "They are a serious threat. They have used violence already – you don't know where it will stop.
"You know how it happened in Germany – it started with the Jews, then the Communists, then everybody – it could happen here. This is the country, after the Soviet Union and Germany itself, with the bigest prcentage of [Second World War] casualties in its population."
Mr Pangalos's Pasok, the Greek Socialist Party, lost three-quarters of its seats at the election after voters blamed it for the bailout deal and the cuts, which have caused enormous hardship but failed significantly to reduce Greece's debt.
The economy has shrunk by 8.5 per cent in the last year. More than a fifth of the population is out of work and youth unemployment is almost 54 per cent.
Pasok, together with the main conservative party, New Democracy, previously won up to four-fifths of the vote. Last week, the two established pro-bailout parties were reduced to 32 per cent between them.
The streets are calmer since the election. Though Greeks are fearful, thre's also satisfaction at the blow they've dealt to their former rulers.
But the casualties of the bailout are everywhere. On the pavements, junkies openly inject in the middle of the day. And what is striking about Athens beggars is how clean and well-groomed so many are: not sereotypical street-dwellers, but working and professional people deep
down on their luck.
As we talked to Mr Pangalos in an upmarket cafe, one man sold lottery tickets wearing a very decent suit.
Yiannis Bournos, Syriza's European policy spokesman, told The Sunday Telegraph that Greece could afford to reject the bailout deal because European policymakers dared not risk Greece triggering a domino effect – and a potential depression - across Europe.
"Mr Schaeuble [Germany's finance minister] is pretending to be the fearless cowboy on the radio, saying the euro is secure [against a Greek exit]. But there's no way they will kick us out," he said.
"If we left the euro, the financial markets cold attack Italy. If you owe 3000 euros to the bank and don't pay, they will kill you. If you owe 10 billion euros, they will do everything for you."
He criticised the deputy prime minister's remarks, saying: "Mr Pangalos is in his own sphere. When reality does not agree with him, reality has a problem. It's unbelievable to see the same representatives of the banking interests and of neoliberalism saying that nothing can change. It reminds me of religious fundamentalism. There have been so many changes in Europe in the last two weeks."
Mr Bournos said that even if the EU cut off payments the Greek government could still pay salaries and pensions from its domestic tax revenues. He said the country would seek alternative sources of financing from China, Russia and the Middle East.
Left-wingers hope that the election of a new socialist president in France, together with concerns expressed in Italy and the Netherlands about the austerity package, will soften hearts in Berlin. At least in public, however, German officials continued cranking up the pressure yesterday.
"If Athens doesn't stand by its word, that is a democratic decision," said the Bundesbank chief, Jens Weidmann, in an interview with the Suddeutsche Zeitung newspaper. "But that means the basis for further financial aid falls away."
Mr Weidmann insisted the consquences of Greece leaving the euro "would be more serious for Greece than the rest of the eurozone".
It's still possible that everyone could pull back from the brink. The Germans could soften their demands – next month, Greece is supposed to be outlining further billions in cuts, something which even pro-bailout politicians are starting to balk at. The Greek Left could change it simplistic stand. The can could be kicked down the road some more.
But the euro's fundamental problems will remain. And it's equally possible that the EU will merely use the time to erect bigger financial walls around Greece, hoping they can leave it to its fate.
Planning for a Greek exit, now seen as likely by many, has stepped up a gear. Vodafone, a major presence in the Greek telecoms market, said it now sends all cash earned in Greece to the UK "every evening."
Andrew Witty, chief executive of Glaxo SmithKline, said no cash was left in Greece or "most European countries." Several other British multinationals have made similar statements.
Jonathan Tepper, an economist with Variant Perception, said a debt default and Greek euro exit would happen at only moments' notice after weeks of denials by all concerned.
"To avoid immediate runs on banks, it would be done in a 'surprise' announcement over a weekend when markets and banks are closed," he said. "If necessary, Monday and Tuesday would be declared bank
holidays as well."
During this period, diplomats in Athens have been told, cash machines would be turned off and all banks closed. Inside, staff would be "redenominating" euro notes into the new drachma, probably by
rubber-stamping them. Capital controls would be imposed to stop Greeks
transferring money out of the country electronically and border checks would be reinstated to prevent them taking out unstamped euros in
suitcases.
Mr Tepper is one of a growing number of economists who believe that the so-called "Grexit" might actually be better than years and years of EU-mandated misery.
"In the past century, 69 countries have exited currency areas with little downward volatility," he says. "The experience of emerging-market countries, such as Argentina, Russia and the 'Asian tigers,' shows that the pain of devaluation would be brief, and rapid growth and recovery would follow."
Greece, however, is not Russia, Argentina or the Far East, with massive mineral wealth and untapped human capital. And everyone concedes that exit would, in the short and medium term, cause Greeks even more
terrible pain.
Most economists think that a new, free-floating drachma would immediately crash by up to 50 per cent against the euro and other currencies, effectively halving the value of everyone's savings and spelling catastrophe for those on fixed incomes, like pensioners.
EU diplomats in Athens have been warned to expect substantial disorder during this period, which would, said one, be "a dream moment for Golden Dawn".
The Sunday Telegraph on Saturday joined the neo-fascists on "patrol" – their word – around Attiki, a poor, inner-city Athens neighbourhood which Golden Dawn says it has "cleaned up".
"This square used to be occupied," said the patrol leader, Nassos Rndekakos. "Full of illegal immigrants. We took it back. We just emptied the square of everyone: Greeks, foreigners, whatever."
But what if they refused to leave?
"There's a good way and a bad way," said Mr Rendekakos. "We know both ways."
They weren't in their black T-shirts on Saturday, but they were still pretty easy to spot. Their hair was shaved at the sides but not at the top; they wore near-identical sunglasses, plus biker jackets and gloves, though the day was warm and sunny.
Certainly the immigrants, not that there are many on these streets just now, knew who they were, and crossed the road or stepped quietly into doorways as they passed.
They weren't Nazis, they insisted, just nationalists."It's not Hitler we like," said Mr Rendekakos. "It's the way he used to make the best for his country. Hitler took a country with so much debt, unemployment, just before the edge, as we are here – and he managed to make that country great."
On Golden Dawn, there are signs of what might be termed buyers' remorse.The Sunday Telegraph found a number of people who'd voted for them but claimed they now regretted it, and their score in the latest post-election polls is down. Many other residents, however, were genuinely grateful to the fascists.
"Six months ago, no-one could walk here," said Christos Yiannis, drinking coffee in Attiki's main square. "Last summer, we didn't come out like this at all. The police did nothing. Golden Dawn cleaned up the squares and made them human for people to enjoy, because the state is
absent. The state has collapsed."
As two little girls rode pink tricycles round our table, and the old men sat reading their newspapers in the sun, it was tempting, so tempting, to believe there are easy answers to tough problems – none tougher than the mess Greece now finds itself in.
Shortfall in California’s Budget Swells to $16 Billion
By ADAM NAGOURNEY
Published:
May 12, 2012
LOS ANGELES — The state budget shortfall in California has increased dramatically in the last six months, forcing state officials to assemble a series of new spending cuts that are likely to mean further reductions to schools, health care and other social programs already battered by nearly five years of budget retrenchment, state officials announced
Gov. Jerry Brown, disclosing the development in a video posted on YouTube, said that California’s shortfall was now projected to be $16 billion, up from $9.2 billion in January. Mr. Brown said that he would propose a revised budget on Monday to deal with it.
“We are now facing a $16 billion hole, not the $9 billion we thought in January,” Mr. Brown said.“This means we will have to go much further and make cuts far greater than I asked for at the beginning of the year.” Mr. Brown disclosed the news in a video that had all the trappings of a campaign announcement. In it, he aggressively accounted for the steps he said he had taken to try to scale back a $26 billion deficit he found upon taking office. And he urged viewers to back an initiative he is putting on the November ballot that would increase sales taxes by 0.25 percent and impose an income tax surcharge on wealthy Californians to try to stave off more cuts.
State officials said Mr. Brown’s proposal would include a package of immediate cuts, as well as others that would be triggered only if voters failed to approve his tax plan. The sales tax increase would expire after four years, while the income tax surcharge would last for seven years.
State officials said the shortfall was a result of disappointing revenue collections in April as California continued to struggle to pull out of the recession. “We are still recovering from the worst recession since the 1930s,” Mr. Brown said.
Still, the state controller reported that the state had exceeded spending by $2.1 billion as well, though Mr. Brown said court rulings and other actions that restricted California from making the cuts were at least partly to blame.
At the same time, the deficit projections — which have been increasing since Mr. Brown and the Democratic-controlled Legislature approved a budget last summer — suggest that the state may have been overly optimistic in estimating what kind of revenue it would take in. That has been a repeated problem in Sacramento as officials have struggled over the past five years with the state’s worst financial crisis since the Depression. Mr. Brown, in taking office last year, pledged to end what he said were the tricks lawmakers regularly used to paper over budget shortfalls.
Published:
May 12, 2012
LOS ANGELES — The state budget shortfall in California has increased dramatically in the last six months, forcing state officials to assemble a series of new spending cuts that are likely to mean further reductions to schools, health care and other social programs already battered by nearly five years of budget retrenchment, state officials announced
Gov. Jerry Brown, disclosing the development in a video posted on YouTube, said that California’s shortfall was now projected to be $16 billion, up from $9.2 billion in January. Mr. Brown said that he would propose a revised budget on Monday to deal with it.
“We are now facing a $16 billion hole, not the $9 billion we thought in January,” Mr. Brown said.“This means we will have to go much further and make cuts far greater than I asked for at the beginning of the year.” Mr. Brown disclosed the news in a video that had all the trappings of a campaign announcement. In it, he aggressively accounted for the steps he said he had taken to try to scale back a $26 billion deficit he found upon taking office. And he urged viewers to back an initiative he is putting on the November ballot that would increase sales taxes by 0.25 percent and impose an income tax surcharge on wealthy Californians to try to stave off more cuts.
State officials said Mr. Brown’s proposal would include a package of immediate cuts, as well as others that would be triggered only if voters failed to approve his tax plan. The sales tax increase would expire after four years, while the income tax surcharge would last for seven years.
State officials said the shortfall was a result of disappointing revenue collections in April as California continued to struggle to pull out of the recession. “We are still recovering from the worst recession since the 1930s,” Mr. Brown said.
Still, the state controller reported that the state had exceeded spending by $2.1 billion as well, though Mr. Brown said court rulings and other actions that restricted California from making the cuts were at least partly to blame.
At the same time, the deficit projections — which have been increasing since Mr. Brown and the Democratic-controlled Legislature approved a budget last summer — suggest that the state may have been overly optimistic in estimating what kind of revenue it would take in. That has been a repeated problem in Sacramento as officials have struggled over the past five years with the state’s worst financial crisis since the Depression. Mr. Brown, in taking office last year, pledged to end what he said were the tricks lawmakers regularly used to paper over budget shortfalls.
Last edited by gobbledock; 15th May 2012 at 00:04.
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Jet A
I do my research every Qtr thanks,
some serious soul searching if you will.
The school I went to receives far less than the amount per student at a state school. Did when I went there, and now with our last child finishing year 12 the same still applies.
So have a look here shall we, at what the typically labor sympathising ABC had to say
Gonski report's not-so-hidden Fabian agenda - The Drum Opinion (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
And lets have a look at a balanced view from somebody who really knows his stuff.
Week 5 - 24 February 2012 | St Paul's School
The Gonski report was a shambles and a waste of millions of dollars, that should have been invested in the education system.
Refer back to post 337
I do my research every Qtr thanks,
some serious soul searching if you will.The school I went to receives far less than the amount per student at a state school. Did when I went there, and now with our last child finishing year 12 the same still applies.
So have a look here shall we, at what the typically labor sympathising ABC had to say
Gonski report's not-so-hidden Fabian agenda - The Drum Opinion (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
And lets have a look at a balanced view from somebody who really knows his stuff.
School Funding and the Gonski Review
Perhaps you have seen media reports that the long awaited review of school funding has been completed by Mr David Gonski. The report has now been released and with it, a wave of lobbying from a variety of stakeholders.
Non-government schools receive funding primarily from the Commonwealth government and to a much lesser extent, the State government. The remainder of income is derived from fees. Government schools, on the other hand, receive their funding from the State government. It is important to remember that fact when you hear media reports that, “the Commonwealth spends more money on non-government schools than government schools.” This is true but misleading as it is the State’s responsibility to fund government or State schools, not the Commonwealth’s responsibility. This is set down in our country’s constitution.
The average cost for government to educate a student in a government school was $14,380 compared to just $7,427 for each student attending a non-government school (2009/2010 figures). This equated to a saving of $5.7million to the government because 1500 students were educated at St Paul’s School last year. St Paul’s School, and all other independent schools save tax payers billions of dollars a year.
Perhaps you have seen media reports that the long awaited review of school funding has been completed by Mr David Gonski. The report has now been released and with it, a wave of lobbying from a variety of stakeholders.
Non-government schools receive funding primarily from the Commonwealth government and to a much lesser extent, the State government. The remainder of income is derived from fees. Government schools, on the other hand, receive their funding from the State government. It is important to remember that fact when you hear media reports that, “the Commonwealth spends more money on non-government schools than government schools.” This is true but misleading as it is the State’s responsibility to fund government or State schools, not the Commonwealth’s responsibility. This is set down in our country’s constitution.
The average cost for government to educate a student in a government school was $14,380 compared to just $7,427 for each student attending a non-government school (2009/2010 figures). This equated to a saving of $5.7million to the government because 1500 students were educated at St Paul’s School last year. St Paul’s School, and all other independent schools save tax payers billions of dollars a year.
The Gonski report was a shambles and a waste of millions of dollars, that should have been invested in the education system.
Refer back to post 337
Last edited by Jabawocky; 15th May 2012 at 00:04.
Jet-A-one. Have wondered about the Gonski report so I took your advice. (I know it's disappointing when your own reference invalidates your own argument)
page 15, Figure 5. The level of state and federal finding provided to students in Catholic and other independent schools is lower.
Gov't schools - $10600
Catholic - $7700
Independent - $6200
I daresay the parents of the kids at Catholic and independent schools pay tax like everyone else. I 'd like to suggest they probably pay much more. So why should their children get less support?
Let's get the campaign start for equity in school funding!
page 15, Figure 5. The level of state and federal finding provided to students in Catholic and other independent schools is lower.
Gov't schools - $10600
Catholic - $7700
Independent - $6200
I daresay the parents of the kids at Catholic and independent schools pay tax like everyone else. I 'd like to suggest they probably pay much more. So why should their children get less support?
Let's get the campaign start for equity in school funding!
Originally Posted by Jet A One
And now you want free tomatoes too...
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My little granddaughter aged 5 started school this year, she went to a small public school at the back of the Goldie, whilst she is booked into a private school from year 6, my son thought it was a good idea so she could socialise with local kids until........................................her brand new, just out of teachers college teacher, has been telling the little darlings that The Greens are going to stop the water coming across the land, because they know the world is changing, and they are doing something about it. Needless to say our little cherub asked her parents would their house go under the water, and they should ask the Greens how to stop it. She is now at the private school, and the young teacher left in no doubt what my son thought about it. I suggest all parents check out if their kids are being brainwashed, its not the first time I have heard about it.
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If state schools get it so good why don't you send your kids to one and stop wingeing? 
Typical elitist attitude to brag about how much you earn and hence how much tax you pay and just call anybody that disagrees with you a communist.
I bet you're one of those w@nkers that has your kid's private school on a bumper sticker.
Typical elitist attitude to brag about how much you earn and hence how much tax you pay and just call anybody that disagrees with you a communist.
I bet you're one of those w@nkers that has your kid's private school on a bumper sticker.
Last edited by Jet-A-One; 15th May 2012 at 02:46.
If state schools get it so good why don't you send your kids to one and stop wingeing?
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I think you'll find the federal government has been providing recurrent funding to schools since the 1970s Jabawocky. Productivity Commission data shows it at a rate of $4515/ private school student compared to $1051/ public school student under the Howard government. Delve a bit deeper than the headlines on your fish and chips wrappers or what Alan Jones tells you each morning...
Impressive figures FlareHighLandLong. Take out the needs of disabled, non-english speaking kids and remote and indigenous schools etc. and I think you'll agree the Government school quote will come in much lower.
Thanks for your input j3. Very insightful...
Impressive figures FlareHighLandLong. Take out the needs of disabled, non-english speaking kids and remote and indigenous schools etc. and I think you'll agree the Government school quote will come in much lower.
Thanks for your input j3. Very insightful...
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If state schools get it so good why don't you send your kids to one and stop wingeing?
Typical elitist attitude to brag about how much you earn and hence how much tax you pay and just call anybody that disagrees with you a communist.
I bet you're one of those w@nkers that has your kid's private school on a bumper sticker.
Typical elitist attitude to brag about how much you earn and hence how much tax you pay and just call anybody that disagrees with you a communist.
I bet you're one of those w@nkers that has your kid's private school on a bumper sticker.
If it was me, well no I do not have any school stickers on my car, never have.
No elitist attitude here, I started life with nothing, parents busted their arses and mum today is working at 72. Not because she has the trappings of wealth, the pension does not cut it.
Every dollar I have I have earned, not ripped off in some phoney dodgy scheme, its been 25 years of slog so far. And when the taxes I pay, are squandered, and I get taxed more and never get the kickbacks I get a little tired of the idea. by the way, when our kids were little and for a few years Mrs Jaba stayed at home, we could have chased Centrelink for something, not sure what, but it was always way too hard and not worth the trouble, so we just paid our own way with everything.
Now I have a chance to stash some super away, they go change the rules so the max is $25K at the discounted tax rate, maybe I am just unlucky. But it certainly seems like the carrot and the stick game, where the stick grows faster than the carrot!
So I am not sure who called you a communist, but with comments like that you start sounding like one. Please party politics aside, when you see a co-worker, bludging half the time, not putting in the effort, not trying hard to save fuel on sectors or whatever it is you do, and you both get paid the same amount per week, and then a creamie overtime gig comes along and he gets it....how do you feel? Ripped off?
Now back to schools, many but not all state schools are good schools, however as a parent if I have a problem with the schooling, or anything, the head of the school is always available (within reason) and I really do have a say. Not so in the state system. I pay a premium to have some extra sport, study and so on facilities, and extra benefits that sometimes you can't put a value on in dollar terms. That is my choice. Economy ticket or Premium economy?
Did anyone actually notice the highlighted part of my earlier post, the federal government funding is not the only source, state governments provide funding. The whole picture needs viewing not selective bits.
Lets look at the total cost to Governments shall we, and stop the cherry picked stuff JetA.
The average cost for government to educate a student in a government school was $14,380 compared to just $7,427 for each student attending a non-government school (2009/2010 figures).
Last edited by Jabawocky; 15th May 2012 at 04:38.
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Originally Posted by Teresa Green
I suggest all parents check out if their kids are being brainwashed, its not the first time I have heard about it.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
This is precisely why he wanted free public education, for indoctrination purposes.
If you are concerned about education, I suggest you read the book: The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America by Charlotte Thompson Isebyte. She has a free download of the whole book on her website [pdf here].
She is a whistler blower who was high up in the US education bureaucracy during the Reagan administration. Is it the same in Australia? Is she correct? Read the book, observe and draw your own conclusions.
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Thanks for that TWE. Admittedly the area that the child went to the school is one of where many alternatives live, most don't seem to work, or if they do it must be at night, because they were always around, if I went to pick her up I felt like a fish on a bicycle, I don't remotely look like a earth mother, or indeed a earth father, no beard, no sandals, and I don't like being called "Bro" The kids were great though.
You blokes are not serious about brainwashing at public schools are you, fair dinkum, are you really serious???
Here is something to think about if you are, my daughter is a teacher, she is a teacher at a private school, she was educated at a public school.
Now do you believe that she would bring her evil public school ways with her to the private sector??
I think some, no, most of you blokes need to get a grip.
Here is something to think about if you are, my daughter is a teacher, she is a teacher at a private school, she was educated at a public school.
Now do you believe that she would bring her evil public school ways with her to the private sector??
I think some, no, most of you blokes need to get a grip.
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Arnold, I learnt a lot about teachers and schools when, with no state school close, myself and five other TAA pilots, a couple of Flight Engineers, a couple of business men, the Mayor, and two religious, one Anglican and one Catholic started a non denominational school at Mount Macedon in Vic. It is known as Braemar College, we started with 26 kids, it now has 800. My job was to interview the teacher applicants. For one who had only ever been a pilot, it was a steep learning curve, especially when it came to the Teachers Union. It is without doubt the most left wing union in the country, and I felt it was like dealing with Stalin. Their union arrived on our doorstep, uninvited, and proceeded to make it plain how we would run the school, and you can imagine the above gentlemen standing around wondering what we had got ourselves into. We politely evicted them, and made the decision they would play no part in the school. My point is, regardless of your daughters political beliefs, if she is teaching at a private school, she will keep them to herself, if you are teaching at a public school, that should also be the case, but it has been reported by many parents that politics are being introduced when the parents do not want it. My grandaughter is a perfect example.
Geez you guys whinge.
We're the third most prosperous people* in the world for farks sake
Stop giving yourself a hernia and just relax. The extra few dollars a paycheck you're so worried about paying in whatever tax isn't going to heavily impact on the fact that we're richer than pretty much everyone else on this planet of ours.
Now pour yourself a Glenmorangie.
*Somewhere in Norway and Denmark, debate rages over how badly the government are doing and how Äbbøtt will vastly improve their current substandard quality of life.
We're the third most prosperous people* in the world for farks sake
Stop giving yourself a hernia and just relax. The extra few dollars a paycheck you're so worried about paying in whatever tax isn't going to heavily impact on the fact that we're richer than pretty much everyone else on this planet of ours.
Now pour yourself a Glenmorangie.
*Somewhere in Norway and Denmark, debate rages over how badly the government are doing and how Äbbøtt will vastly improve their current substandard quality of life.
Originally Posted by Jet a1
Productivity Commission data shows it at a rate of $4515/ private school student compared to $1051/ public school student under the Howard government. Delve a bit deeper than the headlines on your fish and chips wrappers or what Alan Jones tells you each morning...
Yeh, we're really prosperous, let's engage in a bit more class warfare! They can manage! And when the wheels really fall off, as predicted by some on this thread, we'll (I should say the tomatoes) still engage in class warfare!
