Australia's a backwater in aviation>>
Thread Starter
Australia's a backwater in aviation>>
AJ is right; It's happening in Asia..
From Paris Air Show this week:
AirAsia's chief executive Tony Fernandes was on hand to announce the deal alongside the jubilant Airbus team - striking a deal to buy a record 200 A320neo jets for a price of 12.7 billion euros.
"It is the largest single order for Airbus in terms of numbers of aircraft," Enders said, while observers noted it was in fact the biggest order in unit terms ever placed for commercial airliners.
The order makes the Malaysian low-cost pioneer Airbus' biggest customer, with a total of 375 planes on order and 89 A320s already in service.
From Paris Air Show this week:
AirAsia's chief executive Tony Fernandes was on hand to announce the deal alongside the jubilant Airbus team - striking a deal to buy a record 200 A320neo jets for a price of 12.7 billion euros.
"It is the largest single order for Airbus in terms of numbers of aircraft," Enders said, while observers noted it was in fact the biggest order in unit terms ever placed for commercial airliners.
The order makes the Malaysian low-cost pioneer Airbus' biggest customer, with a total of 375 planes on order and 89 A320s already in service.
Thread Starter
go to Asian airports and see the movements.
Go to SYD/MEL/BNE and have a sleep between movements. The "busy" period here sees half a dozen waiting once or twice a day.....
Go to SYD/MEL/BNE and have a sleep between movements. The "busy" period here sees half a dozen waiting once or twice a day.....
TBM..... I work, and have worked for 20 years in one of the biggest hubs in Asia, yep you got it Hong Kong........So I've seen a thing or 3 before thanks 
All very well to say we've ordered a zillion aircraft but the real question is in what time frame? and how many airframes does it replace?
Ok
All very well to say we've ordered a zillion aircraft but the real question is in what time frame? and how many airframes does it replace?
Ok
Thread Starter
OK, if you read the statement it says they have a total of 375 on order. Currently 89 in service. If they go still leaves a fleet over over 300 aircraft...
Paris 2011: AirAsia eyes fleet of over 300 aircraft by 2020 with new A320neo | Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation - CAPA
Paris 2011: AirAsia eyes fleet of over 300 aircraft by 2020 with new A320neo | Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation - CAPA
Ok, but over what time frame are they getting these Aircraft? If its 10 years then it's not as big as you think.
Also some of the earlier delivered Aircraft may be replaced by the later delivered ones.
You need to see what their fleet numbers are being planned for the future to know how big they plan to be.
Also some of the earlier delivered Aircraft may be replaced by the later delivered ones.
You need to see what their fleet numbers are being planned for the future to know how big they plan to be.
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Only on pprune could a 200 aircraft order get talked down.
How many aircraft do all the oz airlines combined have on order? At least some of these airlines are moving the industry forward and getting on with the job rather than getting into a 10yr battle with its staff....
How many aircraft do all the oz airlines combined have on order? At least some of these airlines are moving the industry forward and getting on with the job rather than getting into a 10yr battle with its staff....
Backwater or not, it happens to be our own 'backwater'. What happens here matters for Australian pilots. For those who choose working overseas as their career path, good luck while you are away. Surrendering our own airlines to provide that overseas work should not be the plan. Keeping our 'backwater' functional for those who live here and for our own travellers is of paramount importance. The Australian Government can help by levelling the playing field for local operators. Some overseas airlines operate in artificial tax free environments where the normal business rules don't apply (despite their protestations to the contrary). Large populations elswhere will always make our slice of the industry look small. However capitulating to predatory overseas practices or cheaper operating costs will be the ruin of Australia. Standing by and watching even smaller nations buy their aviation industry at our expense with oil or other revenues is hardly a clever Government activity. It is the Goverment which has the power to provide both relief and support to internationally exposed industries, rather than expecting fixed costs to be lowered adnauseum. The levels of taxation, Government charges and overseas access to Australian routes is all the province of Government. Management don't have the ability to change international pressures. If our Government believes that all services should go to the lowest cost global player, then we are doomed to share their lower condition and surrender all our local industry to offshore producers. No work means no income. If Australia is to avoid becoming a quarry occupied by masses of unemployed citizens, the government has to actively support our industries with revenue from our natural resources and advantages. We have masses of energy which we sell for peanuts and an educated trained workforce. If dictatorial nations can use their resources to buy industry, why can't democratic Australia at least retain those ones it has? You won't see our politicians or management types lowering their costs under pressure from cheaper overseas competition. Globalisation is for the powerless only. We don't need to run on that treadmil, whether we are a small player or not. Meanwhile in Europe, aviation industries including airlines are wondering why their governments support building enormously big airliners, subsidised by European taxpayers, which are used mainly by foreign 'supported' carriers to monopolise the worlds long haul routes to the detriment of European companies. Governments are not often 'naturally clever'. They need guidance!
Last edited by flyingfox; 23rd Jun 2011 at 17:26.
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Completely agree with all that.
Meanwhile, how many hopes and dreams of Australian working class airline employees get dashed whilst executives have their snouts in the trough?
Where is the balance? Well, there is none.
Oil funded countries, or tax friendly havens may create tough competition but that doesn't explain QFs attitude to it's staff and customers.
Who wouldn't like a well run and safe aviation industry in Australia? No-one would put their hand up for that but no-one is willing or able to facilitate either.
What's the answer? Who knows right now, but I need to make sure I provide a roof over my families head and that bills get paid. Australian aviation is pretty much unable to offer that in the longer term at the moment.
Meanwhile, how many hopes and dreams of Australian working class airline employees get dashed whilst executives have their snouts in the trough?
Where is the balance? Well, there is none.
Oil funded countries, or tax friendly havens may create tough competition but that doesn't explain QFs attitude to it's staff and customers.
Who wouldn't like a well run and safe aviation industry in Australia? No-one would put their hand up for that but no-one is willing or able to facilitate either.
What's the answer? Who knows right now, but I need to make sure I provide a roof over my families head and that bills get paid. Australian aviation is pretty much unable to offer that in the longer term at the moment.
“Some overseas airlines operate in artificial tax free environments”
Artificial? In what way.
“where the normal business rules don't apply”
What exactly are “normal” business rules and do you think you will be able to change these?
“However capitulating to predatory overseas practices….”
As though you have a choice.
“….. or cheaper operating costs will be the ruin of Australia”
Yes, it will. And the ruin of most western countries. Take a look at Western Europe and the UK. The western world has lived on debt for decades but that is coming to a close.
“Standing by and watching even smaller nations buy their aviation industry at our expense with oil or other revenues is hardly a clever Government activity.”
Hang on there mate. Wasn’t it you that referred to a place “where the normal business rules don't apply”?
“If our Government believes that all services should go to the lowest cost global player, then we are doomed to share their lower condition and surrender all our local industry to offshore producers.”
Isn’t a free market wonderful? It giveth and it taketh.
“If Australia is to avoid becoming a quarry occupied by masses of unemployed citizens….”.
Do you mean like the US and UK are also becoming? France maybe. Italy. Ireland. Spain.
“….but I need to make sure I provide a roof over my families head and that bills get paid.”
There are 3 billion people in India, China and the Middle East that want the same thing, but they will do the job for a lot less than you.
“Australian aviation is pretty much unable to offer that in the longer term at the moment.”
Get a grip. ALL aviation jobs in Australia pay enough to achieve this outcome.
Artificial? In what way.
“where the normal business rules don't apply”
What exactly are “normal” business rules and do you think you will be able to change these?
“However capitulating to predatory overseas practices….”
As though you have a choice.
“….. or cheaper operating costs will be the ruin of Australia”
Yes, it will. And the ruin of most western countries. Take a look at Western Europe and the UK. The western world has lived on debt for decades but that is coming to a close.
“Standing by and watching even smaller nations buy their aviation industry at our expense with oil or other revenues is hardly a clever Government activity.”
Hang on there mate. Wasn’t it you that referred to a place “where the normal business rules don't apply”?
“If our Government believes that all services should go to the lowest cost global player, then we are doomed to share their lower condition and surrender all our local industry to offshore producers.”
Isn’t a free market wonderful? It giveth and it taketh.
“If Australia is to avoid becoming a quarry occupied by masses of unemployed citizens….”.
Do you mean like the US and UK are also becoming? France maybe. Italy. Ireland. Spain.
“….but I need to make sure I provide a roof over my families head and that bills get paid.”
There are 3 billion people in India, China and the Middle East that want the same thing, but they will do the job for a lot less than you.
“Australian aviation is pretty much unable to offer that in the longer term at the moment.”
Get a grip. ALL aviation jobs in Australia pay enough to achieve this outcome.
Thread Starter
Like manufacturing protectionism won't work. The consumer is driving this bus and will vote with their wallets. Politicians are powerless in this Global paradigm shift of all sorts of capital including labour.
Let's get smart in aviation and pull together and do what it takes to move forward. The workers have the most to lose here so urgently engage with management in a constructive way to see how together we can grow the far. It must be on a collective manner. The threats of strikes etc in aviation only alienates the travelling public. You will get NO support from the masses particularly when you are seen by them to be gouging from a perceived position of being well paid and conditioned now. Remember the lessons from 1989.
Pick up the phone and start talking to the management about an engaging compact.
{if you want to see what Government thinks of industries and local jobs, look at what they've just done to the cattle industry. They can't even export to Australian owned and controlled meat works that are based over seas and fully meet Australian standards. Anyway Indonesia etc will be on the phone o Brazil/Argentina and buy their cows never to return.}
Let's get smart in aviation and pull together and do what it takes to move forward. The workers have the most to lose here so urgently engage with management in a constructive way to see how together we can grow the far. It must be on a collective manner. The threats of strikes etc in aviation only alienates the travelling public. You will get NO support from the masses particularly when you are seen by them to be gouging from a perceived position of being well paid and conditioned now. Remember the lessons from 1989.
Pick up the phone and start talking to the management about an engaging compact.
{if you want to see what Government thinks of industries and local jobs, look at what they've just done to the cattle industry. They can't even export to Australian owned and controlled meat works that are based over seas and fully meet Australian standards. Anyway Indonesia etc will be on the phone o Brazil/Argentina and buy their cows never to return.}
TBM, you and the rest of the Asian fantasist just don't get it.
Yes, the Asian market is huge, however you forget one thing - it's an Asian market.
What that means is that the airlines that serve it are going to be Asian. They are going to be staffed by Asians trained by other Asians. The aircraft will be built in Asia (as far as possible). The GSE and infrastructure will be built in Asia by Asians. The ATC will be Asian, and of course the passengers will be Asian. But more importantly the revenues and profits will be Asian.
So Qantas thinks it can walk in and say "I'll have a chunk of that!" That is about as realistic as El Al deciding that the burgeoning mining fly in fly out markets in Wester Australia justify setting up an El Al base in Perth and mixing it with Australian competitors, or Aeroflot deciding that it wants to compete on the Sydney - Melbourne market. - in your dreams fellah!
The "huge Asian market" game has been played by the Chinese since at least as early as 1935, and it sucks in Western money every time it does because there is always some gormless Western twit like Alan Joyce who thinks that there really is a pot of gold at the end of the Asian rainbow - there isn't, unless you are Asian.
To put it another way; what can Qantas do in Asia that the Asians cannot do better and cheaper themselves? A Neil Perry menu perhaps?
To put it yet another way, if you decide to risk your money and technology in China, you are going to have to have such a commanding technological position that the Chinese cannot steal it from you no matter what.
By the way, its probable that those 200 Airbuses will be built in China, and Airbus itself may get stung if it is not very very careful. Qantas has already had warnings; how is Jetstar Vietnam going? Jetstar Asia?
I don't have to speculate on this because I know it to be the case. My Father started trading in Asia around 1935 and the Family company successfully operated in that environment from 1960 to 2000. You will not believe the games that are played, and it not only cost people all their money, at least one joint venture ended in the suicide of the western principle.
Defend your patch in Australia and trade at arms length on strict and honorable terms. You will win respect and make a little money. Leave this Asian joint venture crap alone, it always ends in tears.
Yes, the Asian market is huge, however you forget one thing - it's an Asian market.
What that means is that the airlines that serve it are going to be Asian. They are going to be staffed by Asians trained by other Asians. The aircraft will be built in Asia (as far as possible). The GSE and infrastructure will be built in Asia by Asians. The ATC will be Asian, and of course the passengers will be Asian. But more importantly the revenues and profits will be Asian.
So Qantas thinks it can walk in and say "I'll have a chunk of that!" That is about as realistic as El Al deciding that the burgeoning mining fly in fly out markets in Wester Australia justify setting up an El Al base in Perth and mixing it with Australian competitors, or Aeroflot deciding that it wants to compete on the Sydney - Melbourne market. - in your dreams fellah!
The "huge Asian market" game has been played by the Chinese since at least as early as 1935, and it sucks in Western money every time it does because there is always some gormless Western twit like Alan Joyce who thinks that there really is a pot of gold at the end of the Asian rainbow - there isn't, unless you are Asian.
To put it another way; what can Qantas do in Asia that the Asians cannot do better and cheaper themselves? A Neil Perry menu perhaps?
To put it yet another way, if you decide to risk your money and technology in China, you are going to have to have such a commanding technological position that the Chinese cannot steal it from you no matter what.
By the way, its probable that those 200 Airbuses will be built in China, and Airbus itself may get stung if it is not very very careful. Qantas has already had warnings; how is Jetstar Vietnam going? Jetstar Asia?
I don't have to speculate on this because I know it to be the case. My Father started trading in Asia around 1935 and the Family company successfully operated in that environment from 1960 to 2000. You will not believe the games that are played, and it not only cost people all their money, at least one joint venture ended in the suicide of the western principle.
Defend your patch in Australia and trade at arms length on strict and honorable terms. You will win respect and make a little money. Leave this Asian joint venture crap alone, it always ends in tears.
Thread Starter
Sunfish: You missed my point and that is that Australian consumers will vote with their feet when something is on offer cheaper elsewhere - look at the store here crying about internet purchasing and then wanting the government to effectively tax imports which would be impracticable.
My point is that Oz companies need to build a strong COMPETITIVE base here if they are to survive. I've also lived in Asia for many years and done business there as well. Doesn't make me an expert however..
My issue is that we do not need to fight amongst ourselves. - Sun Tsu will tell you that the enemy laughs then because you weaken your cause.
My point is that Oz companies need to build a strong COMPETITIVE base here if they are to survive. I've also lived in Asia for many years and done business there as well. Doesn't make me an expert however..
My issue is that we do not need to fight amongst ourselves. - Sun Tsu will tell you that the enemy laughs then because you weaken your cause.
My point is that Oz companies need to build a strong COMPETITIVE base here if they are to survive.
You don't need to "accept Asian wages and working conditions" to be competitive.
The Chinese will typically over - man operations.
Then there are the supposedly "qualified" staff.
Then there is the lack of initiative and the several layers of management including the bosses son, his nephews, daughters, etc.
Then there is the Chinese penchant for "cheese paring" - reducing quality to the minimum they can get away with - witness the baby formula scandal.
Then there is good old fashioned Chinese corruption aka "business ethics".
Then there is Government corruption to be paid.
It ain't so cheap when you add all those costs into the equation.
That said, when properly motivated, the Chinese can produce excellent quality and have done for years.
However, do you want your airline to be the one who has to do the education and motivation? It is extremely expensive and time consuming.
P.S. Suppose you finally do make an enormous profit? Just try and get it out of the country once the Government discovers it. Pretty soon you will realize that your shareholders will never see a return on their investment, and since their investment is in China, they cannot even recover it.
I watched an Australian metals company develop new gold recovery technology for the Chinese, installed it and made it work. They then asked for payment. The Chinese response? "You see that hill over there, it must contain at least a $100 million in gold! It's yours, here is your mining lease!
The Chinese will typically over - man operations.
Then there are the supposedly "qualified" staff.
Then there is the lack of initiative and the several layers of management including the bosses son, his nephews, daughters, etc.
Then there is the Chinese penchant for "cheese paring" - reducing quality to the minimum they can get away with - witness the baby formula scandal.
Then there is good old fashioned Chinese corruption aka "business ethics".
Then there is Government corruption to be paid.
It ain't so cheap when you add all those costs into the equation.
That said, when properly motivated, the Chinese can produce excellent quality and have done for years.
However, do you want your airline to be the one who has to do the education and motivation? It is extremely expensive and time consuming.
P.S. Suppose you finally do make an enormous profit? Just try and get it out of the country once the Government discovers it. Pretty soon you will realize that your shareholders will never see a return on their investment, and since their investment is in China, they cannot even recover it.
I watched an Australian metals company develop new gold recovery technology for the Chinese, installed it and made it work. They then asked for payment. The Chinese response? "You see that hill over there, it must contain at least a $100 million in gold! It's yours, here is your mining lease!
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Who is going to be the first to put their hand up to accept Asian wages and living conditions.
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Politicians are powerless in this Global paradigm shift of all sorts of capital including labour.
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Let's get smart in aviation and pull together and do what it takes to move forward. The workers have the most to lose here so urgently engage with management in a constructive way to see how together we can grow the far. It must be on a collective manner.
Also, what makes you think that starting another offshore subsidiary in Asia is a great idea? And no vague assertions about the rate of growth in Asia and all we have to do is turn up with empty bags to load the cash in. Apart from the points that Sunfish has raised :
1. Jetstar Pac is a write off. Jetstar Asia is barely breaking even after years of losses. Shouldn't QF prove that it is capable of running a profitable airline in Asia before investing more money there?
2. QF can only have a minority holding in an Asian subsidiary. So not only do profits leave the company (and Australia), QF loses control. Which is fine while the relationship stays nice and cosy, but leaves QF exposed to things like regime change, diplomatic relations etc.
3. Australians fly QF because the are Australian and they are safe. The two factors are fundamental to Qantas. See SPs letter about the problems with outsourcing maintenance in Asia. What will be the attraction for Australians to fly on an Asian airline with a red tail slapped on it?
4. If, say for example, Singapore allow QF to start a premium carrier based in Singapore, how can the Australian government continue to refuse Singair the right to fly the Pacific?
5. How many Australians have the ability to use the services provided by J* Pacific? The intent of the Qantas Sales Act is that Qantas provide a service to Australia. The expectation of the public is that Qantas provide a service to Australians. They don't care how much money can be made in Asia when Qantas is neglecting its duty to Australia. In general, Qantas has always had the support of the government and the public. Why risk that?
Thread Starter
Qantas does not have a "duty to Australia"...
It is a public company not a public institution.
The shareholders dictate the terms ultimately.
The almost open skies international policy that is driven by our own productivity commission [in parts] allows almost unbridled competition vs. QF
and the travellers are voting with their $$$$. Unless they're business travellers or high frequency flyers it is price driven. Pricing can only come from cost.
It is a public company not a public institution.
The shareholders dictate the terms ultimately.
The almost open skies international policy that is driven by our own productivity commission [in parts] allows almost unbridled competition vs. QF
and the travellers are voting with their $$$$. Unless they're business travellers or high frequency flyers it is price driven. Pricing can only come from cost.