Future of Qantas in jeopardy: Joyce (Merged)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Frozen Chunks (Cloud Cuckoo Land)
Age: 17
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hardly surprising comments from Clifford.
What I like is the fact, that they have developed a strategy for QANTAS, which isn't working, and that they have the guts and determination to continue with this strategy, no matter what the cost.
Bravo!
When will the shareholders wake up and realise that these blokes need the arse. Someone has to save them from themselves.
What I like is the fact, that they have developed a strategy for QANTAS, which isn't working, and that they have the guts and determination to continue with this strategy, no matter what the cost.
Bravo!
When will the shareholders wake up and realise that these blokes need the arse. Someone has to save them from themselves.
So the Board members were briefed on the current industrial situation - presumably by the same executives who came up with outlandish figures of 26% pay rise and who simply don't understand the job security issues.
If the Board were to also be briefed by AIPA, ALAEA, etc, they would then have a more balanced understanding of the issues and thus would be able to make better decisions to take Qantas forward. Not going to happen though - especially with Leigh Clifford in the chair.
If the Board were to also be briefed by AIPA, ALAEA, etc, they would then have a more balanced understanding of the issues and thus would be able to make better decisions to take Qantas forward. Not going to happen though - especially with Leigh Clifford in the chair.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sydney
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the International business is losing I'd like to know where the forecast $600-800 million profit is coming from. Surely JQ isn't bringing all that cash in. Looks to me that, we're not making enough money to keep their greedy ego's & wallets happy.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sydney
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"What Planet are these people on"
"What Planet are these people on".
There you go people, straight out of Cliffords mouth. Says it all really about what these"people" think of us, the workers. We obviously, in his opinion, don't have the mental capacity to form an educated view on the current problems facing the company & the industry. Which probably means that I had it all wrong in regards to my views on Strong, Dixon, Jackson etc. They must have all been "you beaut, tip top people" !!!!
Damn, when will I ever get it right.
There you go people, straight out of Cliffords mouth. Says it all really about what these"people" think of us, the workers. We obviously, in his opinion, don't have the mental capacity to form an educated view on the current problems facing the company & the industry. Which probably means that I had it all wrong in regards to my views on Strong, Dixon, Jackson etc. They must have all been "you beaut, tip top people" !!!!
Damn, when will I ever get it right.
'What planet are these people on given the competitive environment?'
Bring on the YES vote!!!
There is cognitive dissonance at work here. This does not add up.
Does Chairman Clifford distinguish between "return on Capital" and "return on funds employed". Which is it? There is, alas, again no explanation of what the number actually is. This in itself has always been highly suspicious. Just what do the major shareholders want? 200% per annum? The risk adjusted premium over the long term bond rate?
1. Jetstar is supposedly making a profit by selling tea and muffins. That isn't going to produce an "acceptable return" ever.
2. We hear rumours that QF mainline has been loaded up to the eyeballs with Jetstar costs. We also know that internal cost allocation practices can be used to make any part of any company profitable by the stroke of a pen.
The answer to that is to perform contribution analysis which looks at gross profit before overheads are allocated. If Chairman Clifford was able to produce this, and show that each section of the business was carrying its fair share of the load, this would make his argument stronger.
3. Qantas invested in 20(?) A 380 aircraft for its international division. Presumably this investment was made with the full knowledge of fuel price inflation and maintenance costs? You cannot tell me that this investment was predicated on driving the engineering, cabin crew and pilot workforce into penury?
4. If a company is in such a parlous state that merely maintaining the purchasing power of its employees wages (which is all that is apparently sought) is beyond it, then God help the business and its shareholders.
5. Finally, what have the major shareholders been briefed on that is not common knowledge among small shareholders?
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't satisfy.
If the company decides it needs to outsource overseas, then I think that the travelling public had better start pushing for an open skies policy.
To put it another way; Qantas has charged Australians a premium to fly on an Australian owned and operated airline for some Thirty plus years. That premium was to do with the fact that Qantas was perceived to be operated by Pilots, cabin crew and engineers that had superior training and experience to the rest.
If that is not the case, and Chairman Clifford indicates that it isn't to be in future, then the public has every right to demand a more competitive market.
To put it another way; The Qantas brand was built by demonstrably superior crew and engineering performance. It was not built by management, in fact it would appear that QF's performance these days is maintained despite managements attempts to destroy the business
To put it yet another way; exactly why is the Board struggling so mightily in the seemingly impossible (according to them) task of bailing out the Titanic?
This situation is starting to smell like the APA bid.
Lindsay Fox? Solly Lew? Jamie Packer? What is going on here?
Does Chairman Clifford distinguish between "return on Capital" and "return on funds employed". Which is it? There is, alas, again no explanation of what the number actually is. This in itself has always been highly suspicious. Just what do the major shareholders want? 200% per annum? The risk adjusted premium over the long term bond rate?
1. Jetstar is supposedly making a profit by selling tea and muffins. That isn't going to produce an "acceptable return" ever.
2. We hear rumours that QF mainline has been loaded up to the eyeballs with Jetstar costs. We also know that internal cost allocation practices can be used to make any part of any company profitable by the stroke of a pen.
The answer to that is to perform contribution analysis which looks at gross profit before overheads are allocated. If Chairman Clifford was able to produce this, and show that each section of the business was carrying its fair share of the load, this would make his argument stronger.
3. Qantas invested in 20(?) A 380 aircraft for its international division. Presumably this investment was made with the full knowledge of fuel price inflation and maintenance costs? You cannot tell me that this investment was predicated on driving the engineering, cabin crew and pilot workforce into penury?
4. If a company is in such a parlous state that merely maintaining the purchasing power of its employees wages (which is all that is apparently sought) is beyond it, then God help the business and its shareholders.
5. Finally, what have the major shareholders been briefed on that is not common knowledge among small shareholders?
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't satisfy.
If the company decides it needs to outsource overseas, then I think that the travelling public had better start pushing for an open skies policy.
To put it another way; Qantas has charged Australians a premium to fly on an Australian owned and operated airline for some Thirty plus years. That premium was to do with the fact that Qantas was perceived to be operated by Pilots, cabin crew and engineers that had superior training and experience to the rest.
If that is not the case, and Chairman Clifford indicates that it isn't to be in future, then the public has every right to demand a more competitive market.
To put it another way; The Qantas brand was built by demonstrably superior crew and engineering performance. It was not built by management, in fact it would appear that QF's performance these days is maintained despite managements attempts to destroy the business
To put it yet another way; exactly why is the Board struggling so mightily in the seemingly impossible (according to them) task of bailing out the Titanic?
This situation is starting to smell like the APA bid.
Lindsay Fox? Solly Lew? Jamie Packer? What is going on here?
Join Date: May 2011
Location: USA
Age: 51
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will Jamie Packer come in and take J.P. Morgans slice?
The share price is under quite a bit of selling pressure the buy side is looking quite sick this last week. Just looking at the chart its still in a downtrend and isnt looking to reverse just quite yet. $1.75 ?? maybe, maybe not. That is possible though if the likes of the US fall off another cliff
Sub $2 here we come.
Now remind me whos steering the ship again ?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
5 Posts
Dissembling.
The March Bitre figures don't seem to support anything Clifford says.
The average Load factor of ALL airlines operating into Australia was 67.8%
Qantas mainline market share figures 19.4%; up by 0.1%. Pax figures Down by 1.2%. Total Average Load factor of 75%.
Jetstar International market share figures 8.5%: down by 0.1% Total average Load factor of 70%. (lowest Load factor of any Int LCC operating into OZ).
Big Bad Emirates market share 7.2%: Pax figures DOWN by 12.6%. Total average Load factor of 52%.
Big Bad Cathay Pacific market share 4.2%: Pax figures DOWN by 16.2%. Total average Load factor of 63%.
Big Bad SIA market share of 9.1%: Pax figures Down by 5.1%. Total average load factor of 71%.
Mr Clifford, your premium airline carried more passengers in and out of Australia by a factor of two over your closest rival. It did so with the highest load factor of any of your major competitors and your "fantastic business" LCC. Daylight was second.
And yet you say the business isn't making money and this is the fault of pilots and engineers whose total cost to you wouldn't be 5% of the operating costs of the airline?
Get real Mr Clifford. Mainline is taking delivery of expensive A380's. These are being paid for out of cash flow. One day soon that will end. We are not fooled, and unlike some toady journalists, we are prepared to ask the right questions.
The average Load factor of ALL airlines operating into Australia was 67.8%
Qantas mainline market share figures 19.4%; up by 0.1%. Pax figures Down by 1.2%. Total Average Load factor of 75%.
Jetstar International market share figures 8.5%: down by 0.1% Total average Load factor of 70%. (lowest Load factor of any Int LCC operating into OZ).
Big Bad Emirates market share 7.2%: Pax figures DOWN by 12.6%. Total average Load factor of 52%.
Big Bad Cathay Pacific market share 4.2%: Pax figures DOWN by 16.2%. Total average Load factor of 63%.
Big Bad SIA market share of 9.1%: Pax figures Down by 5.1%. Total average load factor of 71%.
Mr Clifford, your premium airline carried more passengers in and out of Australia by a factor of two over your closest rival. It did so with the highest load factor of any of your major competitors and your "fantastic business" LCC. Daylight was second.
And yet you say the business isn't making money and this is the fault of pilots and engineers whose total cost to you wouldn't be 5% of the operating costs of the airline?
Get real Mr Clifford. Mainline is taking delivery of expensive A380's. These are being paid for out of cash flow. One day soon that will end. We are not fooled, and unlike some toady journalists, we are prepared to ask the right questions.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here he goes again. He uses the same script as Qantas/JQ management. They publicly ridicule their own staff, and use doctored figures of 26% pay rises for the pilots etc to try and convince the public the staff are mentally challenged. He is trying the same trick but to the shareholders. Why do they do this? Because they are worried. Once the pilots, engineers and cabin crew start protected industrial action the board will have no choice but to get rid of these managers and CEO's as the staff hold the power, and without their compliance and assistance the company CANNOT succeed. It doesn't have to go down that road, but management, and the board it appears, are hell bent on destroying the company no matter what the cost. Would you invest in a company that is willing to send it broke just so they can feel good about winning their war against their own staff for no reason other than greed? Investors should be pulling out their money now before the share price nosedives in the next few months. When the staff are saying the company is going down the drain, investors should take notice.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This game is getting worse as the numbers don't support the rhetoric.
If privatisation is the end game this will be one of the biggest frauds ever committed on the Australian public and one which should rightly receive sanctions.
I do say IF but they have form that no one should forget.
There is just no counter argument being put into the public arena by anyone!!!!Where are the so called investigative journalists??
If privatisation is the end game this will be one of the biggest frauds ever committed on the Australian public and one which should rightly receive sanctions.
I do say IF but they have form that no one should forget.
There is just no counter argument being put into the public arena by anyone!!!!Where are the so called investigative journalists??
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Darwin
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would say that Sunfish and Capt Kremin are spot on and there are underhanded activities at work here.
Maybe we can work together and investigate this ourselves.
Has Kremin been compiling data for some time and built a factual database?
Who knows the links to external parties that the Board and Executive members of Qantas have?
Is Ben Sandilands the man to chase this if provided with factual information? He appears to be the only one prepared to print what most are thinking. We can get him exposure through various social network sites via links etc.
Thinktank needed....
Maybe we can work together and investigate this ourselves.
Has Kremin been compiling data for some time and built a factual database?
Who knows the links to external parties that the Board and Executive members of Qantas have?
Is Ben Sandilands the man to chase this if provided with factual information? He appears to be the only one prepared to print what most are thinking. We can get him exposure through various social network sites via links etc.
Thinktank needed....
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 57
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a shame that no one has the salary/bonus package of all of QF's board members and senior managers. It would be interesting to publish a full page advertisement of how much these oxygen thieves leech out of Qantas. It seems ok to pay obscene packages to these buffoons well above what other executives and managers at DJ/BA/SQ/AA/CX and NZ are renumerated.
Some questions for Clifford and Joyce:
What have you achieved since your tenure at QF? How much value???
How have you promoted QF as a premium brand?
Why do you talk down QF international instead of publically talking it up?
Why have you not paid a dividend and why is our share price nearing $2?
What have you done to engage with your staff (not b/s retoric)?
Why is industrial relations handled so poorly by QF? Do you realise that the unions are actually your loyal employees who are alarmed by the mismanagement of them and their airline?
Why are we not operating 777's?
Why was QF fined for priced fixing? Who is responsible at board level?
Why do you pay consultants big money yet cannot be bothered to ask your front line staff what passengers are telling them?
Do you really think our pax would rather fly JQ than QF?
Why are you nickel and diming QF pax? Is QF full service or low cost?
Why have you introduced a complex greedy bagagge policy when DJ is just stepping up serious competition domestically?
How much does JQ cost QF from the balance sheets??
How do you justify your renumeration in regard to above questions?
I would of had 3 letters on file and fired if I had failed in my position as badly as the CEO and Chairman have in their roles.
Its a no brainer-vote for me- I will do either position for $80000 p/a and fix Qantas up -Hey sacking Clifford and Joyce and hiring me could be my first few million saved!
Some questions for Clifford and Joyce:
What have you achieved since your tenure at QF? How much value???
How have you promoted QF as a premium brand?
Why do you talk down QF international instead of publically talking it up?
Why have you not paid a dividend and why is our share price nearing $2?
What have you done to engage with your staff (not b/s retoric)?
Why is industrial relations handled so poorly by QF? Do you realise that the unions are actually your loyal employees who are alarmed by the mismanagement of them and their airline?
Why are we not operating 777's?
Why was QF fined for priced fixing? Who is responsible at board level?
Why do you pay consultants big money yet cannot be bothered to ask your front line staff what passengers are telling them?
Do you really think our pax would rather fly JQ than QF?
Why are you nickel and diming QF pax? Is QF full service or low cost?
Why have you introduced a complex greedy bagagge policy when DJ is just stepping up serious competition domestically?
How much does JQ cost QF from the balance sheets??
How do you justify your renumeration in regard to above questions?
I would of had 3 letters on file and fired if I had failed in my position as badly as the CEO and Chairman have in their roles.
Its a no brainer-vote for me- I will do either position for $80000 p/a and fix Qantas up -Hey sacking Clifford and Joyce and hiring me could be my first few million saved!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 503
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent posts -Sunfish and Capt Kremin.
I have been in contact with GetUp. They are interested,though are waiting for some political and media "noise" first. Well maybe the Senate Inquiry findings could give them some fodder.
I am truly astounded at that the language the so called Qantas "Leaders" use:
...."if they don't take up this offer (APA bid) they are mental"- Margaret Jackson.
....."Behaving like Kamikaze's" -Alan Joyce
......'What planet are these people on given the competitive environment?"-Clifford.
I 'll tell you what planet we are on buddy-Its EARTH. A place where human beings live. People with Families who are trying to do their bit.
But, Clowns like you living in your penthouses etc etc are so out of touch with reality- & blame others when things are not going the way they WANT it.
You have a responsibility to the Shareholders -sure. But what about the actual People who work at this joint.
"Oh yeah-costs are going up-lets just sack the workers and bully others to take pay freezes ,pay cuts and T&C's cuts."
Your arrogance and incompetence are going to bite you on the arse big time over this (and other stuff ups you have "presided" over)
I haven't forgotten the day when you were onboard in 2K and we had a "rolling delay" on a full flight. What did you do??? Bolt to the Qantas P/C lounge ( before anyone else was allowed off). No- introducing your self to the crew, No-is there any thing I can do or say?, Do you want me to talk to the other P/C or J/C pax.??
Its the little things buddy- that make a difference for people. You failed.
Now pack up your Black Leather Gucci bag and leave us to out Planet.
Its 2 minutes to midnight for Qantas. We need REAL STRATEGIC LEADERSHIP.
Making once loyal staff redundant as a way of cutting costs is short sighted, puerile and from a business perspective-unacceptable.
I have been in contact with GetUp. They are interested,though are waiting for some political and media "noise" first. Well maybe the Senate Inquiry findings could give them some fodder.
I am truly astounded at that the language the so called Qantas "Leaders" use:
...."if they don't take up this offer (APA bid) they are mental"- Margaret Jackson.
....."Behaving like Kamikaze's" -Alan Joyce
......'What planet are these people on given the competitive environment?"-Clifford.
I 'll tell you what planet we are on buddy-Its EARTH. A place where human beings live. People with Families who are trying to do their bit.
But, Clowns like you living in your penthouses etc etc are so out of touch with reality- & blame others when things are not going the way they WANT it.
You have a responsibility to the Shareholders -sure. But what about the actual People who work at this joint.
"Oh yeah-costs are going up-lets just sack the workers and bully others to take pay freezes ,pay cuts and T&C's cuts."
Your arrogance and incompetence are going to bite you on the arse big time over this (and other stuff ups you have "presided" over)
I haven't forgotten the day when you were onboard in 2K and we had a "rolling delay" on a full flight. What did you do??? Bolt to the Qantas P/C lounge ( before anyone else was allowed off). No- introducing your self to the crew, No-is there any thing I can do or say?, Do you want me to talk to the other P/C or J/C pax.??
Its the little things buddy- that make a difference for people. You failed.
Now pack up your Black Leather Gucci bag and leave us to out Planet.
Its 2 minutes to midnight for Qantas. We need REAL STRATEGIC LEADERSHIP.
Making once loyal staff redundant as a way of cutting costs is short sighted, puerile and from a business perspective-unacceptable.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sydney
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Stubby J.
Thanks SJ, that saved me writing. Well said, I felt your passion & thats what the "upper echelon are missing, some of us do our bit day in day out passionately, Xmas, Easter, Birthdays, Ramadan, barmitsvahs (hope spelling ok). We don't ask for $$$$$$ in the millions just a "fair go".
But then again, what would they know about a fair go.
As for the leprechaun ....... Visa check please !!!!! Maybe he's on a 457 & it's now void !!!!!!!
BORDER SECURITY, how good would that look on the telly !!!! just one more backpacker kicked out.
But then again, what would they know about a fair go.
As for the leprechaun ....... Visa check please !!!!! Maybe he's on a 457 & it's now void !!!!!!!
BORDER SECURITY, how good would that look on the telly !!!! just one more backpacker kicked out.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
Mark Colvin who now hosts PM on ABC radio did a number on Qantas years ago. Probably 4 corners. Maybe he or a 4 corners mate is interested now ?
Anyone skilled in web hosting "Keep Qantas Australian" or similar. Hit counter, comments, online petition etc. The message needs to get out there.
The engineers have largely been successful in getting the off shoring message across but needs to be converted into shareholder and political pressure.
How about a sticky with the emails of all House of reps and senators?
Hammer them , get them asking questions. It is about skilled, well paid jobs, technology transfer and the obvious strategic value in having a viable national carrier that is actually Australian not an ASX stock code with a myriad of off shore entities and a bunch of semi skilled part timers and a very well paid ex-com and board.
Anyone skilled in web hosting "Keep Qantas Australian" or similar. Hit counter, comments, online petition etc. The message needs to get out there.
The engineers have largely been successful in getting the off shoring message across but needs to be converted into shareholder and political pressure.
How about a sticky with the emails of all House of reps and senators?
Hammer them , get them asking questions. It is about skilled, well paid jobs, technology transfer and the obvious strategic value in having a viable national carrier that is actually Australian not an ASX stock code with a myriad of off shore entities and a bunch of semi skilled part timers and a very well paid ex-com and board.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Why oh why would I wanna be anywhere else?
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I suppose that, at $2 a share, it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man for employees to actually purchase some shares and get a voice in how the airline is run? Perhaps as a shareholder an employee might get a little more perspective as might the management.
Just a thought.
But don't pull the pin on 17 June - do it on 21 June and then I'm happy to be stuck in Brizzy for a few more days!
Just a thought.
But don't pull the pin on 17 June - do it on 21 June and then I'm happy to be stuck in Brizzy for a few more days!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sunfish
Will Jamie Packer come in and take J.P. Morgans slice?