AFAP (Federation) takes legal action against Jetstar
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Shed Dog,
Please re-read the bullet points in my post again.
There is one group who have signed EBA after EBA without a scope clause and THEY made a rod for their own back and for the future of all those who would one day want to work for a QF Group Airline or transfer within that Group. That group of pilots is not your Jetstar colleagues.
When the QF Group makes the announcement that it is setting up a separate company to operate mainline 787 services that will be nothing to do with Jetstar. That ball will be very firmly in AIPA's court and the solution will not be without tears.
Isolationism has had a success rate inversely proportional to its popularity. "We're OK why don't you guys get your act together" has brought more pain to the world, in and out of cockpits, than almost any other slogan I could think of.
May I suggest that every safety, professional and industrial battle being fought by any group of pilots anywhere is ultimately a battle that will be fought by all pilots everywhere. In fact I would go further and say that as long as pilots feel themselves separate from the battles of not just other pilots, but their cabin crew, engineer, ramp and traffic colleagues, then isolationism will stay in its place alongside the other horsemen of the industrial apocalypse.
If we all go round pointing fingers then everyone will lose their eye-sight sooner or later.
Please re-read the bullet points in my post again.
There is one group who have signed EBA after EBA without a scope clause and THEY made a rod for their own back and for the future of all those who would one day want to work for a QF Group Airline or transfer within that Group. That group of pilots is not your Jetstar colleagues.
When the QF Group makes the announcement that it is setting up a separate company to operate mainline 787 services that will be nothing to do with Jetstar. That ball will be very firmly in AIPA's court and the solution will not be without tears.
Isolationism has had a success rate inversely proportional to its popularity. "We're OK why don't you guys get your act together" has brought more pain to the world, in and out of cockpits, than almost any other slogan I could think of.
May I suggest that every safety, professional and industrial battle being fought by any group of pilots anywhere is ultimately a battle that will be fought by all pilots everywhere. In fact I would go further and say that as long as pilots feel themselves separate from the battles of not just other pilots, but their cabin crew, engineer, ramp and traffic colleagues, then isolationism will stay in its place alongside the other horsemen of the industrial apocalypse.
If we all go round pointing fingers then everyone will lose their eye-sight sooner or later.
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(sigh)
You say this like AIPA could have snapped their fingers and the company would have agreed to a scope clause. It's been one of AIPA's asks for years, but the company have never agreed. Try and be realistic.
Refusing to do so would have been unprotected IA. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.
So you reckon if we agree to reduce SO pay, the company will increase QLink pay?
They'll say "thank you very much" and have their hand out 10 minutes later asking for more. ALL parts of the Group need to hang on to what T&Cs they have because that's all we have to negotiate with.
This is my favourite. Mainline pilots have been saying for years that we need to work together but have been stonewalled by the Jetstar pilots, probably in no small part due to clowns like you posting crap on Pprune. Only in recent times have management's actions changed J* pilots attitudes. And no .... mainline is well aware we're not ok. Everyone is on a slippery slope, we're just a little bit higher up than Jetstar. Most guys realise that it's imperative that we stop any further erosion of conditions for ALL the group and the best way forwards is unity. Yes, you see mainline pilots direct venom towards the J* guys, but you see just as much venom from J* towards J* NZ, cadets and J* SIN. Pretty ironic, considering they themselves were accepting substandard contracts a few years back.
All in all, mainline has been much more cohesive as a group and has been doing all it can to stop this debacle from day one. So to be blamed for it is just a bit rich.
There is one group who have signed EBA after EBA without a scope clause and THEY made a rod for their own back and for the future of all those who would one day want to work for a QF Group Airline or transfer within that Group.
Training and checking out new intake EBA pilots from backgrounds outside of your parent group when there are plenty of experienced pilots flying under your colours, in your uniform, with your call-sign who would love the chance to qualify
Having low time S/Os paid more than turbo-prop Check Pilots in your own group and doing nothing about equalising that, if necessary by sacrificing a little of your own T & C blessings
They'll say "thank you very much" and have their hand out 10 minutes later asking for more. ALL parts of the Group need to hang on to what T&Cs they have because that's all we have to negotiate with.
"We're OK why don't you guys get your act together"
All in all, mainline has been much more cohesive as a group and has been doing all it can to stop this debacle from day one. So to be blamed for it is just a bit rich.
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So 'holic, what would you like JQ Aus guys & gals do in this instance?
Anyway, the point of my post wasn't to have a shot at J* pilots. It was to have a shot at J* pilots who get on here and lecture the QF guys how this is their fault or how "it's ok for me to undercut you" but "not ok for someone else to undercut me". Oh yeah, and Sherm .... who seems to think QF pilots are responsible for everything from smallpox to Donald Trump's haircut.
Holic, I completely agree with everything you have posted, particularly this part:
If oil prices remain high and margins remain slim, eventually other airlines will follow Australia's lead and cut T&Cs in the knowledge that there will still be pilots who will sign up. Then, those who have accepted the crappy contracts will have nowhere to go, and they will have caused it!
A lot of guys are happy to accept sh1te contracts with the plan of getting hours and moving on.
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Holic forgive me, I was trying to lower the room temperature on this, not raise it. If there is a flaw in my writing it is in my capabilities as a wordsmith not my heart. I have no vested interest in this except that shared by all thinking people: the desire for equity to prevail and divisiveness to decline.
The Qantas EBA pilots are not the source of all evil. Far from it. I am sure they do their job well and wish no-one ill.
But I think it is fair to note that the mainline AIPA pilots are potentially the most unified, well paid and highly unionised group of pilots in the South Pacific and yet they have been unable for years to stop their Group management from starting up new AOCs and new T & C agreements. AIPA members have long taken part in the training and checking of pilots hired from outside the Group pool and welcomed them into their union and seniority system while colleagues whose only sin is to have a job under a different Qantas Group AOC are sidelined.
Why would all the JQ pilots joining a union help? I have heard most are already anyway. It's not the JQ pilots who are signing worse and worse terms, they already have an EBA, it's pilots from outside the group who are being targeted for new jobs. Qantas check and training pilots welcome "outsiders" to their operation, exactly why should Jetstar pilots ban such applicants when their better paid and more powerful mainline brothers and sisters can't?
I only point out in my original post that pointing fingers won't help. Whatever JQ pilots, current and future, are going through now is what mainline pilots face soon. Start using the word "US" more often, and "THEM" less often and that would be a start.
There are strategies to build a better world for pilots where reason, equity and sanity can prevail, without in any way limiting the growth opportunities for the whole Group. None of the options is painless however and yet every one of them is better than doing nothing.
The Qantas EBA pilots are not the source of all evil. Far from it. I am sure they do their job well and wish no-one ill.
But I think it is fair to note that the mainline AIPA pilots are potentially the most unified, well paid and highly unionised group of pilots in the South Pacific and yet they have been unable for years to stop their Group management from starting up new AOCs and new T & C agreements. AIPA members have long taken part in the training and checking of pilots hired from outside the Group pool and welcomed them into their union and seniority system while colleagues whose only sin is to have a job under a different Qantas Group AOC are sidelined.
Why would all the JQ pilots joining a union help? I have heard most are already anyway. It's not the JQ pilots who are signing worse and worse terms, they already have an EBA, it's pilots from outside the group who are being targeted for new jobs. Qantas check and training pilots welcome "outsiders" to their operation, exactly why should Jetstar pilots ban such applicants when their better paid and more powerful mainline brothers and sisters can't?
I only point out in my original post that pointing fingers won't help. Whatever JQ pilots, current and future, are going through now is what mainline pilots face soon. Start using the word "US" more often, and "THEM" less often and that would be a start.
There are strategies to build a better world for pilots where reason, equity and sanity can prevail, without in any way limiting the growth opportunities for the whole Group. None of the options is painless however and yet every one of them is better than doing nothing.
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Sherm, fair enough.
Absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You'll need to be a bit more specific.
Ok, don't join a union, but as I said above don't undercut each other. It is JQ pilots that are signing the offshore SIN contracts which their colleagues are protesting against.
Agree. That's why AIPA tried to set up GOAL a few years back, which would have been a huge benefit to ALL group pilots as far as job security and career prospects go. Apparently JQ pilots didn't agree.
AIPA members have long taken part in the training and checking of pilots hired from outside the Group pool and welcomed them into their union and seniority system while colleagues whose only sin is to have a job under a different Qantas Group AOC are sidelined.
Qantas check and training pilots welcome "outsiders" to their operation, exactly why should Jetstar pilots ban such applicants when their better paid and more powerful mainline brothers and sisters can't?
Why would all the JQ pilots joining a union help? I have heard most are already anyway. It's not the JQ pilots who are signing worse and worse terms, they already have an EBA, it's pilots from outside the group who are being targeted for new jobs.
There are strategies to build a better world for pilots where reason, equity and sanity can prevail, without in any way limiting the growth opportunities for the whole Group.
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Hey!...get rid of cox & toc...and start anew...you'll achieve more!
They should have gone 20 yrs ago, but they don't care about you, they only care about their own futures! They have no principles and will sell you out as they did others back in 89'
They should have gone 20 yrs ago, but they don't care about you, they only care about their own futures! They have no principles and will sell you out as they did others back in 89'
I'm told by mates in QF that the 767-300F operation ( VH Rego ) is crewed by contractors that are being trained ( welcomed? ) by QF Trainers. Indeed aparently some of the contract crew are on leave without pay FROM QF!!
Whilst 20 Captains and 20 FO's will be moved/demoted/re-trained off their 767's
Incredible how AIPA let this happen.....
Whilst 20 Captains and 20 FO's will be moved/demoted/re-trained off their 767's
Incredible how AIPA let this happen.....
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I don't think freighter pilots are eligible to be members of AIPA. They may be eligible to be members of AFAP. The only one I know who took leave without pay to go to QF Freight was the 737 Training Manager who was not a member of AIPA. He is now the Chief Pilot of QF Freight, I believe.
AIPA made a huge fuss in the press about the B767 freighter operation when it started (then ATI), and a huge fuss internally. Every effort by AIPA to prevent it failed. Was that a failure of AIPA, or a failure of the law of the land? I'd be pretty surprised to hear of any AIPA members taking that gig on leave of absence. Happy to be corrected.
An effective association requires 2 things, at minimum. A good leader, and 100% backing from it's members. ALAEA proved that last dispute. The first is hard to achieve, the second is very hard, particularly with pilots. At least AIPA is doing pretty well on those two fronts. That doesn't mean they can rule the land - Industrial law and corrupt government and media see to that. So they can only do the best that they can, act smart and stay united.
It's a lot harder with JQ pilots - two unions, and some percentage of non-members. At least AIPA and AFAP are attempting to work together in support of JQ pilots. That is excellent and I hope it continues to improve. JQ management hate that, hence the lockout from the last meeting. Take serious note of that.
No AIPA mainline members want the new JQ contracts to be successful either. Despite some comments in this thread, JQ pilots have the full support of all AIPA members in this fight, from the bar-room discussions I have had.
We're all on the same team, folks. Let's stay on message and be nice to each other. Save the ammunition for the real enemy.
AIPA made a huge fuss in the press about the B767 freighter operation when it started (then ATI), and a huge fuss internally. Every effort by AIPA to prevent it failed. Was that a failure of AIPA, or a failure of the law of the land? I'd be pretty surprised to hear of any AIPA members taking that gig on leave of absence. Happy to be corrected.
An effective association requires 2 things, at minimum. A good leader, and 100% backing from it's members. ALAEA proved that last dispute. The first is hard to achieve, the second is very hard, particularly with pilots. At least AIPA is doing pretty well on those two fronts. That doesn't mean they can rule the land - Industrial law and corrupt government and media see to that. So they can only do the best that they can, act smart and stay united.
It's a lot harder with JQ pilots - two unions, and some percentage of non-members. At least AIPA and AFAP are attempting to work together in support of JQ pilots. That is excellent and I hope it continues to improve. JQ management hate that, hence the lockout from the last meeting. Take serious note of that.
No AIPA mainline members want the new JQ contracts to be successful either. Despite some comments in this thread, JQ pilots have the full support of all AIPA members in this fight, from the bar-room discussions I have had.
We're all on the same team, folks. Let's stay on message and be nice to each other. Save the ammunition for the real enemy.
Last edited by HF3000; 21st May 2011 at 14:07.
HF,
OW had both her feet in her mouth the other day and old BJ still was unable to finish her off so that might be a good place to start!!
Had the experts at AIPA embraced the various "groups" of pilots as they were ingested/created by Q along the way, we may well be in a different position today.
OW had both her feet in her mouth the other day and old BJ still was unable to finish her off so that might be a good place to start!!
Had the experts at AIPA embraced the various "groups" of pilots as they were ingested/created by Q along the way, we may well be in a different position today.
EFA has a sub-committee under AIPA and is gathering steam. All Aussie pilots need to remember who is the enemy...remember our jobs are governed by law. Stand up to these short-sighted bullies who think they can get away with it...
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Reduced Wages/Conditions Of Employment
Airline pilots are not and can never been seen as 'taxi drivers of the sky' which I think some airlines executives around the world see them as.
Like any group of workers who are faced with attempts to reduce their wages or conditions of employment, you all should unite together with the AFAP to remind the flying public that it is a slippery slope once you are on the downward slide in your wages and conditions.
Ask a member of the public what they think about a first officer (A320) pilots salary when they are on the ground - then ask that same member of the public when they are in seat 23a at FL350.
Why do we pay doctors well?, why do we pay surgeons well?, because our lives are in their hands - It is no different when we, as self loading freight, fly.
I dare not start a discussion about maintenance being completed overseas.
Never Go Backwards In Conditions/wages, you have all worked to hard to be shafted by JetStar management.
Like any group of workers who are faced with attempts to reduce their wages or conditions of employment, you all should unite together with the AFAP to remind the flying public that it is a slippery slope once you are on the downward slide in your wages and conditions.
Ask a member of the public what they think about a first officer (A320) pilots salary when they are on the ground - then ask that same member of the public when they are in seat 23a at FL350.
Why do we pay doctors well?, why do we pay surgeons well?, because our lives are in their hands - It is no different when we, as self loading freight, fly.
I dare not start a discussion about maintenance being completed overseas.
Never Go Backwards In Conditions/wages, you have all worked to hard to be shafted by JetStar management.
Recruitment freeze!
Ahh, cutting off their noses to spite their face. These pr!cks are nothing if not predictable!
Stand firm everyone. It will be a fight to the death. Whilst Common sense has never been these bast@rd's strong suit, arrogance certainly has. They'll eventually be dragged kicking and sceaming into the real world, and when that happens, their sucessors will be scambling for experienced pilots in an effort to catch up. To be employed only of course, on a properly negotiated EBA!
What a pathetic waste of time and money.
Stand firm everyone. It will be a fight to the death. Whilst Common sense has never been these bast@rd's strong suit, arrogance certainly has. They'll eventually be dragged kicking and sceaming into the real world, and when that happens, their sucessors will be scambling for experienced pilots in an effort to catch up.
To be employed only of course, on a properly negotiated EBA!What a pathetic waste of time and money.
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Jetstar have announced that they will be freezing recruitment until September. A victory for unity but the battle is not over yet.
Perhaps they have received a whisper on the content of the Senate report as with this lot everything is often not what it seems!
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The Kelpie
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One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.
Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.
"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"
"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.
"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"
Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"
"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"
"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.
"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"
So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.
Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.
"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"
The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.
"I could not help myself. It is my nature."
Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.
Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.
Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.
"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"
"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.
"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"
Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"
"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"
"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.
"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"
So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.
Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.
"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"
The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.
"I could not help myself. It is my nature."
Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.
Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...
Know your enemy, and never trust them
You know Capt Sherm, that Fable has crossed my mind more than a few times when dealing with the likes of these guys over the years.