AFAP (Federation) takes legal action against Jetstar
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Further updates
To all
The Federation is posting this material to give you an understanding of what is going on, please note that we are not proposing to foreshadow our actions on a public website which is why I cannot respond to a number of questions posed already. Hope that you can understand the sensitivity.
You should also note that all material is posted by and from members/officers of the AFAP not as employees of any Company.
=============================================
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: Ben Bollen, Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
DATE: 19 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Sydney Meeting Outcomes
Thank you to the 30 or so pilots who attended the AFAP Jetstar Pilot meeting in Sydney yesterday morning. At the meeting Simon Lutton (AFAP) and I provided a comprehensive briefing on the steps being taken to ensure that all Australian Jetstar pilots are employed under the Jetstar EBA.
Jetstar’s deliberate avoidance of its collective agreement obligations through the creation of separate employing companies is a threat to all pilots in Australia.
Immediately after the pilot meeting, I attended the Jetstar management organised meeting along with approximately 50 other Jetstar pilots. Discussions at this meeting were, to say the least, very direct and robust, so much so that at one stage a break was called. Upon resuming I proposed the following path forward:
1. Jetstar cease offering Jetstar Group pilot contracts to new pilots;
2. All new pilots be offered employment under the Jetstar EBA; and
3. Management sit down with the JPC (myself, Darren Davis and our reps) and genuinely discuss the issues regarding any inflexibility with the current agreement.
The company advised that it would consider this proposal.
As previously advised, two days ago the AFAP filed proceedings in the Federal Court of Australia against Jetstar Group Pty Ltd. At yesterday’s meeting David Hall advised that he has responded to this application by asking for a specific meeting with the AFAP to discuss the legal issues and contraventions being alleged. I have been involved in the development of our legal strategy and remain hopeful that a sensible solution can be achieved.
On a final note, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to directly email Jetstar management to express your dismay and concern over this attack on our EBA. This is an unprecedented show of unity and resolve. I encourage each of you to continue this communication, in the considered and professional manner which you have displayed.
This is a multifaceted campaign to ensure that your collective agreement is respected – you have an important role in this process. If you have not joined a union please sign up today. AFAP application forms are available at www.afap.org.au or by emailing [email protected].
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact me, any other member of the AFAP Jetstar Council or Simon Lutton on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737
We will keep you advised of developments.
Regards
Captain Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 19 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – AFR Article and Briefing to Government
You may have seen that today the AFAP Executive Director was quoted in the Australian Financial Review as follows:
“Mr O’Connell said the union and all Jetstar pilots believed that all pilots, first officers and cadets should be employed under the enterprise agreement that was agreed by all parties in 2008.
…
“They shook hands with their pilots’ negotiators some three years ago and now they have walked away from that handshake” he said”
A scanned copy of the full article has been posted on the AFAP website below this Briefing.
Also today, a Director from within the Minister for Industrial Relations Department contacted Simon Lutton from the AFAP requesting a briefing on the Federal Court Proceedings we commenced against Jetstar Group Pty Limited earlier this week.
Simon has provided the Director from the IR Minister’s Department with a full briefing, highlighting the implications for all Australian employees of Jetstar’s attempt to avoid its EBA obligations via the deliberate and artificial creation of a separate employing entity and the offering of individual contracts well below the standard set by the EBA.
As you can see, we are exploring every avenue to ensure that all Australian Jetstar pilots are employed under the Jetstar EBA.
We will keep you advised of developments.
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NEWSLETTER TO ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
The Federation is posting this material to give you an understanding of what is going on, please note that we are not proposing to foreshadow our actions on a public website which is why I cannot respond to a number of questions posed already. Hope that you can understand the sensitivity.
You should also note that all material is posted by and from members/officers of the AFAP not as employees of any Company.
=============================================
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: Ben Bollen, Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
DATE: 19 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Sydney Meeting Outcomes
Thank you to the 30 or so pilots who attended the AFAP Jetstar Pilot meeting in Sydney yesterday morning. At the meeting Simon Lutton (AFAP) and I provided a comprehensive briefing on the steps being taken to ensure that all Australian Jetstar pilots are employed under the Jetstar EBA.
Jetstar’s deliberate avoidance of its collective agreement obligations through the creation of separate employing companies is a threat to all pilots in Australia.
Immediately after the pilot meeting, I attended the Jetstar management organised meeting along with approximately 50 other Jetstar pilots. Discussions at this meeting were, to say the least, very direct and robust, so much so that at one stage a break was called. Upon resuming I proposed the following path forward:
1. Jetstar cease offering Jetstar Group pilot contracts to new pilots;
2. All new pilots be offered employment under the Jetstar EBA; and
3. Management sit down with the JPC (myself, Darren Davis and our reps) and genuinely discuss the issues regarding any inflexibility with the current agreement.
The company advised that it would consider this proposal.
As previously advised, two days ago the AFAP filed proceedings in the Federal Court of Australia against Jetstar Group Pty Ltd. At yesterday’s meeting David Hall advised that he has responded to this application by asking for a specific meeting with the AFAP to discuss the legal issues and contraventions being alleged. I have been involved in the development of our legal strategy and remain hopeful that a sensible solution can be achieved.
On a final note, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to directly email Jetstar management to express your dismay and concern over this attack on our EBA. This is an unprecedented show of unity and resolve. I encourage each of you to continue this communication, in the considered and professional manner which you have displayed.
This is a multifaceted campaign to ensure that your collective agreement is respected – you have an important role in this process. If you have not joined a union please sign up today. AFAP application forms are available at www.afap.org.au or by emailing [email protected].
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact me, any other member of the AFAP Jetstar Council or Simon Lutton on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737
We will keep you advised of developments.
Regards
Captain Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 19 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – AFR Article and Briefing to Government
You may have seen that today the AFAP Executive Director was quoted in the Australian Financial Review as follows:
“Mr O’Connell said the union and all Jetstar pilots believed that all pilots, first officers and cadets should be employed under the enterprise agreement that was agreed by all parties in 2008.
…
“They shook hands with their pilots’ negotiators some three years ago and now they have walked away from that handshake” he said”
A scanned copy of the full article has been posted on the AFAP website below this Briefing.
Also today, a Director from within the Minister for Industrial Relations Department contacted Simon Lutton from the AFAP requesting a briefing on the Federal Court Proceedings we commenced against Jetstar Group Pty Limited earlier this week.
Simon has provided the Director from the IR Minister’s Department with a full briefing, highlighting the implications for all Australian employees of Jetstar’s attempt to avoid its EBA obligations via the deliberate and artificial creation of a separate employing entity and the offering of individual contracts well below the standard set by the EBA.
As you can see, we are exploring every avenue to ensure that all Australian Jetstar pilots are employed under the Jetstar EBA.
We will keep you advised of developments.
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NEWSLETTER TO ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
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Lawrie / Simon
The offer by the company to discuss this is nothing more than an attempt to keep the matter out of the Federal Court. By all means discuss but I would encourage you to not to be steered away pursuing a finding by the court.
A court decision is the last thing they want as it will impact on the rest of the QANTAS group and Employers Australia wide.
Unless we show resolve and get a decision through the court system and hopefully an amendment / legal precedent to IR legislation the company and the wider QF group will never change their agenda and will resume it when the heat has died down.
We are in the era where breaking laws and incurring fines is common place as often the commercial advantage of breakin the rules outweighs the punitive level of fine imposed - that is how accountants think!! Jetstar and others have demonstrated that they are willing to push the envelope in terms of safety and break rules, and they will continue to do so until told to specifically stop by a judge.
Keep up the good work and notice just how regular communication rather than silence will rally the troops in such times as these. I expect to see a surge in membership when I hear the latest figures.
On a more general note it is encouraging to see the federation working with AIPA despite the historical differences. I echo previous posters to this thread that a bit of cash should be spent, particularly by AIPA on employing a spin doctor / media firm to work on a public communication strategy.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
The offer by the company to discuss this is nothing more than an attempt to keep the matter out of the Federal Court. By all means discuss but I would encourage you to not to be steered away pursuing a finding by the court.
A court decision is the last thing they want as it will impact on the rest of the QANTAS group and Employers Australia wide.
Unless we show resolve and get a decision through the court system and hopefully an amendment / legal precedent to IR legislation the company and the wider QF group will never change their agenda and will resume it when the heat has died down.
We are in the era where breaking laws and incurring fines is common place as often the commercial advantage of breakin the rules outweighs the punitive level of fine imposed - that is how accountants think!! Jetstar and others have demonstrated that they are willing to push the envelope in terms of safety and break rules, and they will continue to do so until told to specifically stop by a judge.
Keep up the good work and notice just how regular communication rather than silence will rally the troops in such times as these. I expect to see a surge in membership when I hear the latest figures.
On a more general note it is encouraging to see the federation working with AIPA despite the historical differences. I echo previous posters to this thread that a bit of cash should be spent, particularly by AIPA on employing a spin doctor / media firm to work on a public communication strategy.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 19th May 2011 at 21:42.
Kelpie is correct.
If a court ruling doesn't come out of this we run the risk of them watering down this contract to the extent that it stays out of court. Then.....in six months time....we are back at square one when they try it again. We have the support and momentum right now to get this to court. That should be our goal, to get IR changed while we still can.
If a court ruling doesn't come out of this we run the risk of them watering down this contract to the extent that it stays out of court. Then.....in six months time....we are back at square one when they try it again. We have the support and momentum right now to get this to court. That should be our goal, to get IR changed while we still can.
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Not only that Framer. A finding by the Federal Court will trump the political system's ability to fiddle about with the regs after 'consultation with industry'. The court direction must be continued to allow all avenues to remain opento have any political influence on a possible proposed amendment to the regs by government (which will by far provide a speedier way forward) but will have the disadvantage of not providing the context of why the change was made that you would get in a judge's finding in a case.
We have seen regulations can be interpreted in many ways, a detailed finding by a judge usually cannot and is very specific. The context is very important.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
We have seen regulations can be interpreted in many ways, a detailed finding by a judge usually cannot and is very specific. The context is very important.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
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I am both an AIPA and AFAP member, it's a personal choice......
Both AFAP and AIPA should be commended for putting their differences aside and working together for the good of the members.
If not already happening, now would also be a good time for ALEA to be welcomed to the party / join their party ( why stop there, FAAA, TWU.... ).
To the newbies in the industry, join now, you might not see a point to it right now, but when the political promise hits the fan, you'll need them.
Imagine being a Grade 3 instructor at a flying school or a Charter Pilot having issues with management, and a fire breathing 380 Captain comes as your pilot buddy, trust me it will be a pretty good outcome compared to the lynching the company thought they were about to give you.
I got my first airline gig from a union pilot buddy who evolved into a mentor.
Both AFAP and AIPA should be commended for putting their differences aside and working together for the good of the members.
If not already happening, now would also be a good time for ALEA to be welcomed to the party / join their party ( why stop there, FAAA, TWU.... ).
To the newbies in the industry, join now, you might not see a point to it right now, but when the political promise hits the fan, you'll need them.
Imagine being a Grade 3 instructor at a flying school or a Charter Pilot having issues with management, and a fire breathing 380 Captain comes as your pilot buddy, trust me it will be a pretty good outcome compared to the lynching the company thought they were about to give you.
I got my first airline gig from a union pilot buddy who evolved into a mentor.
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Did you Jetstar guys expect anything different from Jetstar? You have all been happy to undercut Qantas Pilots pay and conditions and now squeal like stuck pigs when it happens to you.
Why AIPA helps Jetstar Pilots is beyond me.
Why AIPA helps Jetstar Pilots is beyond me.
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Bigboeingboy is correct.
There would be no "next" if you retards didn't go first.
I am highly confident that the other pilots in the group have always / will always, have the stones to not be victims to what YOU LOT have started.
It also baffles me why AIPA or AFAP would get involved, I'm just glad to see AFAP and AIPA standing united on the same side of the table.
Because your next 
I am highly confident that the other pilots in the group have always / will always, have the stones to not be victims to what YOU LOT have started.
It also baffles me why AIPA or AFAP would get involved, I'm just glad to see AFAP and AIPA standing united on the same side of the table.
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Nobody held at gun at the heads of Impulse Pilots to signup for the ridiculous A330 contract infact AIPA President at the time pleaded with them not to accept such a deal.
So why did the Impulse/Jetstar Pilots do it?
I say once again you guys deserve all you get. The blokes signing up for the cadetship will have miserable lives and careers. They have made their own beds and I trust they enjoy sleeping in them.
Please do not come running to AIPA and expect to be bailed out of your situations. You guys have accepted pay and conditions lower than most Flight Attendants.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
So why did the Impulse/Jetstar Pilots do it?
I say once again you guys deserve all you get. The blokes signing up for the cadetship will have miserable lives and careers. They have made their own beds and I trust they enjoy sleeping in them.
Please do not come running to AIPA and expect to be bailed out of your situations. You guys have accepted pay and conditions lower than most Flight Attendants.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
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BBB,
I half agree with you. I was starting my career in 2004 in Darwin, when all this rubbish started. The downfall of the industry in Aus that is. Golden era...over!
The problem is, at the time, the people I saw who took Jetstar as an option were desperate to get out of GA, and paid for it too! Same as today! fools.
This will continue to happen, so as much as you and I agree that these fools have sown their own seed, it must be stopped as a collective. It should have been stopped as a collective back then!
At least now it is happening, or the intent from the unions is to have this happen. Which I am a member of both!
I am ready to pull the plug on Australia and take my skills overseas. As this is where this industry and country alike are going. After the mining boom, its down the plug hole!
I half agree with you. I was starting my career in 2004 in Darwin, when all this rubbish started. The downfall of the industry in Aus that is. Golden era...over!
The problem is, at the time, the people I saw who took Jetstar as an option were desperate to get out of GA, and paid for it too! Same as today! fools.
This will continue to happen, so as much as you and I agree that these fools have sown their own seed, it must be stopped as a collective. It should have been stopped as a collective back then!
At least now it is happening, or the intent from the unions is to have this happen. Which I am a member of both!
I am ready to pull the plug on Australia and take my skills overseas. As this is where this industry and country alike are going. After the mining boom, its down the plug hole!
32meg,
I'm pretty sure the industry is just as bad overseas, i've tried to look for somewhere to "take my skills", and it just isn't out there.
I stand to be corrected however!
I'm pretty sure the industry is just as bad overseas, i've tried to look for somewhere to "take my skills", and it just isn't out there.
I stand to be corrected however!
This an example of the free market economy with respect to pilots. Naive pilots accept below average conditions for their first jet job with the expectation that they can take their skills overseas to operators that are happy to pay well for experienced expat pilots. The trouble is, these overseas airlines pay only what they need to attract the skill set they require. So, now they only have to pay enough to attract a Jetconnect (for example) pilot. This drives down the pay and conditions domestically, as well as for that 'lucrative' overseas contract.
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Shed Dog, Big Boeing Boy et al,
There are many ways of being selfish and only looking after number 1. The cockpit and crew-rooms and glances across the tarmac to other differently painted aircraft should be home to none of them. Nevertheless they exist and we would all do well to have the humility to recognise the hypocrisy in focussing on the speck in our brother's eye while ignoring the "plank in our own eye" (an issue addressed in some depth in the Sermon on the Mount and never been repealed as far as I know)
Which is worst of the following?:
This list is not exhaustive and could usefully be expanded to those who bucket others for being "pampered", "spoiled", "Sky Gods"" etc.
There's one and only one way out of this and it isn't to watch while "others" do the heavy lifting and carefully address all their own sins
There are many ways of being selfish and only looking after number 1. The cockpit and crew-rooms and glances across the tarmac to other differently painted aircraft should be home to none of them. Nevertheless they exist and we would all do well to have the humility to recognise the hypocrisy in focussing on the speck in our brother's eye while ignoring the "plank in our own eye" (an issue addressed in some depth in the Sermon on the Mount and never been repealed as far as I know)
Which is worst of the following?:
- Standing back while your management starts up B-scale operations because you don't have a Scope Clause and real action would be costly and painful
- Assuming that any pilot not flying on a legacy EBA is a 'wannabe" who didn't make the grade with a "real airline"
- Training and checking out new intake EBA pilots from backgrounds outside of your parent group when there are plenty of experienced pilots flying under your colours, in your uniform, with your call-sign who would love the chance to qualify
- Being a member of a union that doesn't include entry level commercial and RPT pilots but expects them to join when they do fly a jet and to not apply to fly for any jet not paid a legacy carriers EBA
- Implying that there is something necessarily flawed in the cadet concept when the real flaw is in management motivation and training, not the capabilities of the cadets
- Having low time S/Os paid more than turbo-prop Check Pilots in your own group and doing nothing about equalising that, if necessary by sacrificing a little of your own T & C blessings
- Implying that there's something inherently wrong in the LCC concept then screaming that all management should be as engaging as Southwest
- Having a legacy EBA wallet in the back pocket when shopping for the best prices at Aldi or e-Bay or K-Mart all the while bad-mouthing the "bogans" who shop for cheap fares on the internet
- Bad-mouthing all off-shore maintenance without taking the time to research and find out that some of the highest quality work world-wide is done in those shops
This list is not exhaustive and could usefully be expanded to those who bucket others for being "pampered", "spoiled", "Sky Gods"" etc.
There's one and only one way out of this and it isn't to watch while "others" do the heavy lifting and carefully address all their own sins
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Capt Sherm,
I'd like to point out that this lower pay and poor conditions is a Jetstar issue, this Employment "outside" the EBA is also a Jetstar issue.
I find it amazing that they would sign an EBA that actually permitted the company to employ outside the EBA ( assumeing what has been said by previous posters is true ).
If you want to run with the biblical references, they have made this rod for their back, it is not, they have made this rod for everyones back.
So suggesting Jetstar pilots will be doing heavy lifting for the whole industry is laughable to say the least.
They were instrumental is their own demise, kinda sucks to see the reality they have made for themselves.
It is my hope they grow some stones and stand up for themselves with their next EBA negotiation.
The company appears to utilising a paragraph in the EBA that the Pilot group agreed too, in writing as opposed to some supposed hand shake agreement.
I'd like to point out that this lower pay and poor conditions is a Jetstar issue, this Employment "outside" the EBA is also a Jetstar issue.
I find it amazing that they would sign an EBA that actually permitted the company to employ outside the EBA ( assumeing what has been said by previous posters is true ).
If you want to run with the biblical references, they have made this rod for their back, it is not, they have made this rod for everyones back.
So suggesting Jetstar pilots will be doing heavy lifting for the whole industry is laughable to say the least.
They were instrumental is their own demise, kinda sucks to see the reality they have made for themselves.
It is my hope they grow some stones and stand up for themselves with their next EBA negotiation.
The company appears to utilising a paragraph in the EBA that the Pilot group agreed too, in writing as opposed to some supposed hand shake agreement.