New JQ Contract
What TineeTim said 
Further maybe the unions could place a small ad. in newspapers and aviation publications advising of this ban, so that anyone stupid enough to sign these contracts is completely aware of what to expect.
Further maybe the unions could place a small ad. in newspapers and aviation publications advising of this ban, so that anyone stupid enough to sign these contracts is completely aware of what to expect.
waren9 said:
Really? 
If that's true, then it sounds to me like there's a(nother) VERY serious safety deficiency with Jet*. And, the responsibility for the deficiency, IF it IS actually well-documented, rests with the CEO and the Chief Pilot I'd have thought.
When will Buchanen realise that the buck stops with him?
Also, if casual Jet* CA lack of basic knowledge is, as alleged, '...well-documented', then where is it documented? If it's with the operator, then it tells me the Jet* SMS or internal QA system aren't worth 2-bob.
If it's with CASA, then none of us should be surprised I guess that nothing (so far) seems to have been done about it.
Any half-competent CASA-assigned FOI to Jet* should have already been all over this like a rash!
Here's some clues CASA:
CAR 253 Emergency and life-saving equipment
(1) An operator shall not assign a person to act as a crew member of an aircraft, and a person shall not act as a crew member of an aircraft, unless the person is competent in the use of the emergency and lifesaving equipment carried in the aircraft.
CAO 20.11(12)
12 Crew member proficiency in the execution of emergency procedures
12.1 A crew member shall not be assigned or accept assignment to emergency duties in an aircraft engaged in a charter or a regular public transport operation unless he has undertaken and passed the proficiency test specified in Appendix IV of this section on that type of aircraft.
12.2 Subject to paragraph 12.6, the proficiency test shall be taken and passed annually.
12.3 Subject to paragraph 12.3.1, the proficiency test to be undertaken by a crew member of an aircraft is to be conducted by:
(a) CASA; or
(b) a person approved by CASA for the purpose; or
(c) the person appointed as Chief Pilot by the operator of the aircraft.
Look also at CAAP SMS-1(0) – Safety Management Systems for Regular Public Transport Operations and behavioural markers.
Jeezus...it's not bloody rocket-science.
Maybe Ben Sandilands would like to take a look into this and ask CASA to comment on what it's regulatory surveillance (or lack of) is doing about this to ensure that Jet* is providing the appropriate training to cabin attendants to assure compliance with the requirements of CAR 253 and CAO 20.11?
And NO, before anyone suggests it, I don't agree that the preflight briefings referred to are assuring competency/proficiency.
What they ARE doing however, if the allegation is correct, and the standing down of casual CAs is occuring because of less than adequate '...basic knowledge', is highlighting the total inadequacy of the training those particular CA's have been given by the operator to assure their competency ad proficiency pursuant to the regulatory requirements quoted above.
Or perhaps they weren't provided with the specified training?
Whichever way, CASA needs to address this RFN (=Right Fcuking Now).
Well documented that JQ Capts have been standing down these casual F/A's during the preflight briefing for lack of basic knowledge.
If that's true, then it sounds to me like there's a(nother) VERY serious safety deficiency with Jet*. And, the responsibility for the deficiency, IF it IS actually well-documented, rests with the CEO and the Chief Pilot I'd have thought.
When will Buchanen realise that the buck stops with him?
Also, if casual Jet* CA lack of basic knowledge is, as alleged, '...well-documented', then where is it documented? If it's with the operator, then it tells me the Jet* SMS or internal QA system aren't worth 2-bob.
If it's with CASA, then none of us should be surprised I guess that nothing (so far) seems to have been done about it.
Any half-competent CASA-assigned FOI to Jet* should have already been all over this like a rash!
Here's some clues CASA:
CAR 253 Emergency and life-saving equipment
(1) An operator shall not assign a person to act as a crew member of an aircraft, and a person shall not act as a crew member of an aircraft, unless the person is competent in the use of the emergency and lifesaving equipment carried in the aircraft.
CAO 20.11(12)
12 Crew member proficiency in the execution of emergency procedures
12.1 A crew member shall not be assigned or accept assignment to emergency duties in an aircraft engaged in a charter or a regular public transport operation unless he has undertaken and passed the proficiency test specified in Appendix IV of this section on that type of aircraft.
12.2 Subject to paragraph 12.6, the proficiency test shall be taken and passed annually.
12.3 Subject to paragraph 12.3.1, the proficiency test to be undertaken by a crew member of an aircraft is to be conducted by:
(a) CASA; or
(b) a person approved by CASA for the purpose; or
(c) the person appointed as Chief Pilot by the operator of the aircraft.
Look also at CAAP SMS-1(0) – Safety Management Systems for Regular Public Transport Operations and behavioural markers.
Jeezus...it's not bloody rocket-science.
Maybe Ben Sandilands would like to take a look into this and ask CASA to comment on what it's regulatory surveillance (or lack of) is doing about this to ensure that Jet* is providing the appropriate training to cabin attendants to assure compliance with the requirements of CAR 253 and CAO 20.11?
And NO, before anyone suggests it, I don't agree that the preflight briefings referred to are assuring competency/proficiency.
What they ARE doing however, if the allegation is correct, and the standing down of casual CAs is occuring because of less than adequate '...basic knowledge', is highlighting the total inadequacy of the training those particular CA's have been given by the operator to assure their competency ad proficiency pursuant to the regulatory requirements quoted above.
Or perhaps they weren't provided with the specified training?
Whichever way, CASA needs to address this RFN (=Right Fcuking Now).
Last edited by SIUYA; 14th May 2011 at 09:22.
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Look at the big picture.......what is happening at one star airlines is only the tip of the iceberg, look at long haul / Shanghai base for Jetstar.................We need to get through to the new starts before their interviews to give them the "Real" story
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Client | any airline with which the company has an arrangement under which the Company supplies technical crew to that airline
There can be a significant difference between price & value.
missing link...
ALL this stuff needs to be put right in front of intending Jet* newstarts BEFORE they even THINK about applying.
Farkkkk, the training cost repayment obligation in year 1 alone should be enough to turn anyone who's got half a brain away from what is a shocker of a deal!
What will eventually work against Jet* management is public opinion and the perception that safety is at risk if it keeps on going the way it's going.
LCCs obviously appeal to the public because of pricing (and a lot of the so-called Jet* low pricing is all smoke-and-mirrors anyway). But safety is also a very powerful determinant, and if it goes to the wire with 'cheap' vs. 'unsafe' in Joe Public's eye, then damaging perception that Jet* is 'unsafe' may well start to prevail.
The recent debacle with the CASA show cause with Tiger should reinforce that notion.
I wonder if Buchanen's thought of that?
Probably not. I watched him on the Senate Estimates, and he seemed so far up himself that he appeared entirely divorced from reality.
I swear his nose also grew longer throughout his appearance before the Senators. Perhaps he was being economical with the truth?
From what I've experienced with Jet* on the three occasions that I've travelled with them (and they weren't my preference, either), it's pretty-well 'take it or leave it' in terms of customer service, with an attitude of 'if you don't like it then st1ff ****.'
I've written to QF and complained, and got the usual letters back saying 'Dear SIUYA, thank you for your comments. We value your feedback, and your comments have been passed to the appropriate manager blah blah blah', but there was never any follow-up to tell me what thewy actually DID as a consequence. I reckon it was nothing, and I wasted my time.
So, having been there, done that, and with the latest news re the new sh1t contract offered to pilots (and its inevitable consequences), and the inevitable conclusion that I can't escape from WRT you get what you pay for, and monkeys and peanuts, I will NEVER EVER EVER travel with Jet* ever again.
breakfastburrito's comment above:
...reinforces my opinion.
I agree...Jet* obviously DOES recognise the true value of its pilots, and that's clearly why Jet*'s the front-runner in the race to the bottom in high-capacity airline operations here in Australia.
ALL this stuff needs to be put right in front of intending Jet* newstarts BEFORE they even THINK about applying.
Farkkkk, the training cost repayment obligation in year 1 alone should be enough to turn anyone who's got half a brain away from what is a shocker of a deal!
What will eventually work against Jet* management is public opinion and the perception that safety is at risk if it keeps on going the way it's going.
LCCs obviously appeal to the public because of pricing (and a lot of the so-called Jet* low pricing is all smoke-and-mirrors anyway). But safety is also a very powerful determinant, and if it goes to the wire with 'cheap' vs. 'unsafe' in Joe Public's eye, then damaging perception that Jet* is 'unsafe' may well start to prevail.
The recent debacle with the CASA show cause with Tiger should reinforce that notion.
I wonder if Buchanen's thought of that?
Probably not. I watched him on the Senate Estimates, and he seemed so far up himself that he appeared entirely divorced from reality.
I swear his nose also grew longer throughout his appearance before the Senators. Perhaps he was being economical with the truth?
From what I've experienced with Jet* on the three occasions that I've travelled with them (and they weren't my preference, either), it's pretty-well 'take it or leave it' in terms of customer service, with an attitude of 'if you don't like it then st1ff ****.'
I've written to QF and complained, and got the usual letters back saying 'Dear SIUYA, thank you for your comments. We value your feedback, and your comments have been passed to the appropriate manager blah blah blah', but there was never any follow-up to tell me what thewy actually DID as a consequence. I reckon it was nothing, and I wasted my time.
So, having been there, done that, and with the latest news re the new sh1t contract offered to pilots (and its inevitable consequences), and the inevitable conclusion that I can't escape from WRT you get what you pay for, and monkeys and peanuts, I will NEVER EVER EVER travel with Jet* ever again.
breakfastburrito's comment above:
There can be a significant difference between price & value.
perhaps jetstar recognises the true value of pilots, even if those same pilots can't see it.
Last edited by SIUYA; 14th May 2011 at 10:02.
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I hear, in the contract, you must get permission from Crewing on your day off, to leave your base for the day. WTF!!
So, someone based in SYD (on day off),wants to go the the Hunter Valley for the day, must get permission?
So, someone based in SYD (on day off),wants to go the the Hunter Valley for the day, must get permission?
joe cool 69 said:
Does Fair Work Australia really support this sort of cr@p?
"Days leave" is normally taken to mean leave of absence from duty on any day when an employee would normally be rostered for duty, and normally includes leave of absence from any rostered shift commencing on that day.
If intending Jet* newstarts are happy with the limitation that JC69 alludes to (if it's true), then my comment about monkeys and peanuts seems to be appropriate.
I hear, in the contract, you must get permission from Crewing on your day off, to leave your base for the day.
"Days leave" is normally taken to mean leave of absence from duty on any day when an employee would normally be rostered for duty, and normally includes leave of absence from any rostered shift commencing on that day.
If intending Jet* newstarts are happy with the limitation that JC69 alludes to (if it's true), then my comment about monkeys and peanuts seems to be appropriate.
I heard the same thing jc69 said just today. Was in contract apparently emailed to hold file applicants. So far he hasn't received the 'phone' call yet, but good news is he won't be accepting it when it comes.
This crap from Jet* has to stop. It has gone beyond disgusting.
This crap from Jet* has to stop. It has gone beyond disgusting.
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Anyone who accepts this contract needs to have their head examined!
The company I work for has a few guys and girls who are more than suitably qualified to go to Porn Star but everyone I have spoken to, without exception, has said they won't even apply, or have withdrawn their application.
I'd rather stay in GA and fly a King Air all my life (for less than jet pay)than fly a jet for this bunch of penny pinching, halfwitted, T's & C's destroying, bonus chasing, staff screwing, sneaky, congenital imbeciles!!
The company I work for has a few guys and girls who are more than suitably qualified to go to Porn Star but everyone I have spoken to, without exception, has said they won't even apply, or have withdrawn their application.
I'd rather stay in GA and fly a King Air all my life (for less than jet pay)than fly a jet for this bunch of penny pinching, halfwitted, T's & C's destroying, bonus chasing, staff screwing, sneaky, congenital imbeciles!!
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Question for those union members who ave been offered this contract, what is your union doing about it? I am yet to have anyone explain to me how this contract can be legal (regardless of whether some poor schmuck signs it). If it is part time how an they require full time availability? And why are the pilot's annual hours not divided up along the same percentage as the 'part time arrangement'? Conversely, if the company requires full time commitment ie standby availability and no means to fly hours outside Jetstar to earn their living why are they not meeting the award minimums for pay and leave.
This is quite apart from the legal and ethical issues of being able to just set up another company name and abandon their commitments. Not sure about every union that represents pilots but I know AIPA is a member of the ACTU and thus funds flow through to it and the ALP. IN '07 the ACTU and ALP made such a fuss about Workchoices and how it was screwing individuals. Where is their outrage now? And the ALP is in Govt, what are they doing about it?
This is quite apart from the legal and ethical issues of being able to just set up another company name and abandon their commitments. Not sure about every union that represents pilots but I know AIPA is a member of the ACTU and thus funds flow through to it and the ALP. IN '07 the ACTU and ALP made such a fuss about Workchoices and how it was screwing individuals. Where is their outrage now? And the ALP is in Govt, what are they doing about it?
RECRUITMENT BAN!
AIPA & AFAP need to get an IFALPA Recruitment Ban in place. This needs to happen NOW. It needs to be made very public. If you sign up on these conditions, you are on your own. Period. Email & call your union to demand this. This is what you pay fee's for. Stop sitting on the sidelines hoping your buddies will do the leg work for you.
AIPA & AFAP need to get an IFALPA Recruitment Ban in place. This needs to happen NOW. It needs to be made very public. If you sign up on these conditions, you are on your own. Period. Email & call your union to demand this. This is what you pay fee's for. Stop sitting on the sidelines hoping your buddies will do the leg work for you.
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The thought came to me a little while ago while I was thinking how this could possibly have happened. Does anyone else think there is some kind of psychological warfare going on here??
Here we suddenly have a situation that no one could have dreamed of only a couple of years ago when everyone was talking about the looming pilot shortage. The company have seized an opportunity to debase the profession with this excrement of a contract that no one saw coming.
They are out to squash this profession and they are doing it by stealth.
Offering this rubbish in the hope that some will accept will, in their eyes, create a new low from which to work from.
It may be a far fetched idea, but to me, it kind of makes perverse sense.
They stand to gain more if they devalue pilots in the way they just have. Not only in pilots own perception, but that of the general public.
Here we suddenly have a situation that no one could have dreamed of only a couple of years ago when everyone was talking about the looming pilot shortage. The company have seized an opportunity to debase the profession with this excrement of a contract that no one saw coming.
They are out to squash this profession and they are doing it by stealth.
Offering this rubbish in the hope that some will accept will, in their eyes, create a new low from which to work from.
It may be a far fetched idea, but to me, it kind of makes perverse sense.
They stand to gain more if they devalue pilots in the way they just have. Not only in pilots own perception, but that of the general public.
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And just to clarify, a day off is considered to be "twenty four consecutive hours free of all duty".
So knowing these clowns, finish day 1 at 1200. Start day 2 at 1201 means you have just had a day off!
So knowing these clowns, finish day 1 at 1200. Start day 2 at 1201 means you have just had a day off!
Completely agree with you Flava. This should be put into place ASAP. I think Tinee hinted to the same thing, he also said some good things, those who sign up should not be permitted to be union member and never be protected by them. It is a full on disgrace what this company is doing. Jet* should be dragged in and made to explain themselves.
Can anyone within this airline comment on what's happening internally? I have a mate in JQ and he has told me it was going to head this way 18 months ago, didn't believe it then, but clearly I should have. He has said its a dead end airline.
WTF is happening here!
Can anyone within this airline comment on what's happening internally? I have a mate in JQ and he has told me it was going to head this way 18 months ago, didn't believe it then, but clearly I should have. He has said its a dead end airline.
WTF is happening here!
All my friends are saying the same thing. If you want a command as an EBA pilot, you will have t take a contract and resign from the EBA.
Dead end Airline? You bet.
If you think it's a means to an end to get into Emirates, Cathay etc, check out the a Cathay is going!
The only money in aviation will be in the trough with management.
Dead end Airline? You bet.
If you think it's a means to an end to get into Emirates, Cathay etc, check out the a Cathay is going!
The only money in aviation will be in the trough with management.
short flights long nights
At the risk of being banned..I will say it again..it started at the year that cannot be talked about..and is being dripped fed from the top..those at the top do not care about those at the bottom, as long as they stay on thier large pay packets and bonusus, they showed their true colours once and they are showing them again.
But for those thinking this new contract is a great deal..can I put something in perspective...in 1988 as a 3 year FO with Ansett, covered by an AFAP award , I was earning $52000, I just checked my payslip, $52000 over 20 years ago, all I say is please think about waht you are doing if you take this contract.
For me..I dont care..I am on the end run of this industry and have seen some of the best (and worst) times, but now its getting out of control, where will it stop? Jetstar says give us $100000 and you can "work" for us for a year? Give us $500000 and you can stay for life?.,..This whole thing is totally totally out of control, it makes me cry that an industry in Australia that I loved so much has been reduced to this.....
I wish you all well it what you do, and hope for you own sakes you make the best descion.....
SOPS
But for those thinking this new contract is a great deal..can I put something in perspective...in 1988 as a 3 year FO with Ansett, covered by an AFAP award , I was earning $52000, I just checked my payslip, $52000 over 20 years ago, all I say is please think about waht you are doing if you take this contract.
For me..I dont care..I am on the end run of this industry and have seen some of the best (and worst) times, but now its getting out of control, where will it stop? Jetstar says give us $100000 and you can "work" for us for a year? Give us $500000 and you can stay for life?.,..This whole thing is totally totally out of control, it makes me cry that an industry in Australia that I loved so much has been reduced to this.....
I wish you all well it what you do, and hope for you own sakes you make the best descion.....
SOPS
Looks like the last week's rejections from applicants may be having an effect. Clearly JQ management is likely getting feedback from the field that these contracts are draconian and the poor part-time wages are not worth leaving any reasonable job! So today....
Chief Pilot sends out an email (on Saturday....never done before), assuring everyone that pilots on these contract will fly as much as anyone else, despite the contract saying otherwise (and in doing so directly contravening the Pilot Award's part-time requirements)....and
A roadshow appears planned to sell this sh1te to company pilots who are clearly advising their buddies how bad these contracts really are. Wouldn't it be interesting if no one went?
The word is out there....spread the word.
Chief Pilot sends out an email (on Saturday....never done before), assuring everyone that pilots on these contract will fly as much as anyone else, despite the contract saying otherwise (and in doing so directly contravening the Pilot Award's part-time requirements)....and
A roadshow appears planned to sell this sh1te to company pilots who are clearly advising their buddies how bad these contracts really are. Wouldn't it be interesting if no one went?
The word is out there....spread the word.
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How funny,
wasnt Impulse AKA jetstar the first to start the race to the bottom?
Now it seems the guys that started the race are upset because they no longer want to play!
You guys started the game.
Before you all shoot me down, I dont agree with it!
However I never accepted a job with them as I have never agreed with paying for company training or there treatment of employees so good luck but its most of the guys and girls in the pointy ends of all those J* aircraft to blame!
wasnt Impulse AKA jetstar the first to start the race to the bottom?
Now it seems the guys that started the race are upset because they no longer want to play!
You guys started the game.
Before you all shoot me down, I dont agree with it!
However I never accepted a job with them as I have never agreed with paying for company training or there treatment of employees so good luck but its most of the guys and girls in the pointy ends of all those J* aircraft to blame!
If they can't get the numbers you know what will happen? Crying poor to the minister and justification for cadet schemes and 457 visas
If your end goal was Ethiad/Emirates/Qatar this deal will accelerate your career quicksmart. Afterall that is all that happens in Europe with LCC. It's really their version of GA.