BNE ATC Holding
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
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BNE ATC Holding
Does anyone know what is going on in BNE recently? Seems if the weather requires Instrument approaches you get a ridiculous amount of holding. In the last week there was unforcast low viz (1500m) but everyone was getting in ok, 58mins holding, 2 nights ago at 9.30pm with normal showery weather 25mins holding, tonight with no weather requirements (There were some TCU around a couple hours earlier but nothing too bad) 48 mins holding arriving 8.30pm. Is there something going on industrially with ATC? Even in the wet when there was Instrument approaches all day and night long there was rarely more than 15mins hold usually only a 5-10 min delay.
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We held for 75min and then went to the Goldy.....
Pax were unimpressed is an understatement, Absolute joke. If they think that BNE will cope with all the future FIFO and related development without a parallel runway.
Add a little rain and a few well spread clouds the place went silly
Every quarter there is continued pax growth all along the J-curve..... where's the added infrastructure..???
Thats right... they are shopping malls with a passenger terminal attached now
Pax were unimpressed is an understatement, Absolute joke. If they think that BNE will cope with all the future FIFO and related development without a parallel runway.
Add a little rain and a few well spread clouds the place went silly
Every quarter there is continued pax growth all along the J-curve..... where's the added infrastructure..???
Thats right... they are shopping malls with a passenger terminal attached now
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Some all-star in a Cirrus doing a missed approach on 14 and having a close encounter of the Boeing kind with an aircraft on final for 19.
It was one of those Pandora's box incidents that didn't happen for twenty years, but once it did it was impossible for all the relevant agencies to say "oh well, let's stick that back in the box and pretend it didn't happen". With the information from that incident, the risk assessment for a lot of the dual runway ops suddenly looked...risky.
ihd, the parallel runway is on the way but it got delayed by a year. Even on the original time line it wouldn't have been ready yet. It is a big aviation infrastructure project and it will happen, but there's a lot of ground work to do before the land is suitable for runway building. The airport probably should have been built with a parallel 01/19 back in 1988 but no-one realised how busy Brisbane was going to get.
http://bne.com.au/projects-and-devel...sked-questions
It was one of those Pandora's box incidents that didn't happen for twenty years, but once it did it was impossible for all the relevant agencies to say "oh well, let's stick that back in the box and pretend it didn't happen". With the information from that incident, the risk assessment for a lot of the dual runway ops suddenly looked...risky.
ihd, the parallel runway is on the way but it got delayed by a year. Even on the original time line it wouldn't have been ready yet. It is a big aviation infrastructure project and it will happen, but there's a lot of ground work to do before the land is suitable for runway building. The airport probably should have been built with a parallel 01/19 back in 1988 but no-one realised how busy Brisbane was going to get.
http://bne.com.au/projects-and-devel...sked-questions
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 29th Apr 2011 at 22:51.
BN already has a second airport but ya can't get off da plane, it's called 'BLAKA'!!!
Aussie airports are a disgrace. We have been playing backwood politics for years being left behind from the rest of the advanced world, they must look at our aviation infrastructure & laugh!
Look at SYD. Australia's gateway airport & our busiest, it's a coastal drome & it's curfewed with the politicians running it!!!
CB, Australia's Capital city drome, CTAF R after hrs!!!!!
ML, No Precision App on it's main Nth rwy & now with a new twr being built (75 mtrs high) I'd bet that the Min will be higher on the 34VOR!!! (920ft now) I hear curfew is being discussed for this drome, yep great idea, nowhere too go (well T/off after you have arrived due curfew like AD) when the whole SE region gets ugly due wx!!
PH..........need I say more !!!
AD, sleepy, curfewed, nobody wants to go there anyway
Yep it's a great country for sure just not for RPT into Major dromes!
Wmk2
Aussie airports are a disgrace. We have been playing backwood politics for years being left behind from the rest of the advanced world, they must look at our aviation infrastructure & laugh!
Look at SYD. Australia's gateway airport & our busiest, it's a coastal drome & it's curfewed with the politicians running it!!!
CB, Australia's Capital city drome, CTAF R after hrs!!!!!
ML, No Precision App on it's main Nth rwy & now with a new twr being built (75 mtrs high) I'd bet that the Min will be higher on the 34VOR!!! (920ft now) I hear curfew is being discussed for this drome, yep great idea, nowhere too go (well T/off after you have arrived due curfew like AD) when the whole SE region gets ugly due wx!!
PH..........need I say more !!!
AD, sleepy, curfewed, nobody wants to go there anyway
Yep it's a great country for sure just not for RPT into Major dromes!
Wmk2
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WTD.
Surely you are not suggesting that those responsible pull their respective heads out of their respective armpits and see how the rest of the world operates?
In fairness to the guys on the mic. they are hamstrung to a degree by Aus archaic rules, malevolent noise lobbies and weak as piss pollies. They do however have a responsibility to offer professional advice on how to improve the system. A trip to a few overseas airports would work wonders for the corporate knowledge base. (Chicago, LAX, JFK, Atlanta, Narita, Incheon, Heathrow, and Gatwick to name a few)
Who knows, maybe we could even get away from the fallacy that SYD/ BNE and MEL are busy airports. Sunday picnic parks more like it.
"behind the landing, line up and wait be ready immediate, following at 10 miles"
SS
Surely you are not suggesting that those responsible pull their respective heads out of their respective armpits and see how the rest of the world operates?
In fairness to the guys on the mic. they are hamstrung to a degree by Aus archaic rules, malevolent noise lobbies and weak as piss pollies. They do however have a responsibility to offer professional advice on how to improve the system. A trip to a few overseas airports would work wonders for the corporate knowledge base. (Chicago, LAX, JFK, Atlanta, Narita, Incheon, Heathrow, and Gatwick to name a few)
Who knows, maybe we could even get away from the fallacy that SYD/ BNE and MEL are busy airports. Sunday picnic parks more like it.
"behind the landing, line up and wait be ready immediate, following at 10 miles"
SS
ML, No Precision App on it's main Nth rwy
Nunc est bibendum
I must admit to having seen some excellent ATC work in recent days from TWR controllers. Getting departures away with four miles between arrivals. It's been pretty to watch.
I'll admit to having seen the occasional clanger (being asked to taxi as number 2 to Thai out of PER the other day was one of them given that we could have been airborne before he had reached the holding point given his slow taxi speed) but these things happen from time to time with the best of intentions. More often than not it's been great work and far better than I've experienced in most places around SE Asia.
If we could go to an system such as used in HKG, LHR, LAX, etc for SYD airport then it'd be great. One runway for arrivals, the other for departures.
I'll admit to having seen the occasional clanger (being asked to taxi as number 2 to Thai out of PER the other day was one of them given that we could have been airborne before he had reached the holding point given his slow taxi speed) but these things happen from time to time with the best of intentions. More often than not it's been great work and far better than I've experienced in most places around SE Asia.
If we could go to an system such as used in HKG, LHR, LAX, etc for SYD airport then it'd be great. One runway for arrivals, the other for departures.
Yep, Keg the Perth tower guys have been on fire recently with the single runway ops off 06/24.
Maybe this calls for an Airport Infrastructure Senate Inquiry!? Get the heads of those aiports mentioned above in for a bit of a 'chat'.
Maybe this calls for an Airport Infrastructure Senate Inquiry!? Get the heads of those aiports mentioned above in for a bit of a 'chat'.
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In fairness to the guys on the mic. they are hamstrung to a degree by Aus archaic rules, malevolent noise lobbies and weak as piss pollies. They do however have a responsibility to offer professional advice on how to improve the system. A trip to a few overseas airports would work wonders for the corporate knowledge base. (Chicago, LAX, JFK, Atlanta, Narita, Incheon, Heathrow, and Gatwick to name a few)
Two questions though. What 'Aus archaic rules' are you referring to, and what is, for example Gatwick's arrival rate compared to BN?
Surely Govt, BAC, ATC (whoever is doing the ass covering) could get parallel runway ops back by putting something into ERSA like 'No go-around available RWY14 during parallel ops' or similar.
It's hardly groundbreaking, there are many airports in the world where a go-around is unavailable (usually terrain), so if you only let people land who were happy to accept a no go-around landing, what's the (legal) problem?
In fact, you could even have something like 'if going around, early left turn must be made as to avoid entering 19 final approach path.'
Any reason this can't be done?
It's hardly groundbreaking, there are many airports in the world where a go-around is unavailable (usually terrain), so if you only let people land who were happy to accept a no go-around landing, what's the (legal) problem?
In fact, you could even have something like 'if going around, early left turn must be made as to avoid entering 19 final approach path.'
Any reason this can't be done?
Nunc est bibendum
And please don't call it an ATC delay (including on your P/A's when I am aboard!). It is a TRAFFIC delay. Last time I looked, it wasn't me ordering more traffic.
Does that do the job?
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In fairness to the guys on the mic. they are hamstrung to a degree by Aus archaic rules, malevolent noise lobbies and weak as piss pollies. They do however have a responsibility to offer professional advice on how to improve the system. A trip to a few overseas airports would work wonders for the corporate knowledge base. (Chicago, LAX, JFK, Atlanta, Narita, Incheon, Heathrow, and Gatwick to name a few)
Who knows, maybe we could even get away from the fallacy that SYD/ BNE and MEL are busy airports. Sunday picnic parks more like it.
Who knows, maybe we could even get away from the fallacy that SYD/ BNE and MEL are busy airports. Sunday picnic parks more like it.
Vegas in traffic terms is a backwater, there is no good reason why there needs to be excessive delays in anything other than severe wx or poor vis. Words fail me sometimes when I read stuff like this..honestly you have a 3500m or so long runway with plenty of exits..and yet certainly in my Company Doc's (Lido) no mandated minimum rwy occupancy..other than a general note and advising if you need full length.
Am I being unfair in my observations? I'm not having a go...I just can't fathom a 45 minute delay for 1500m viz?
N-Blue, LGW has an average movement rate of a little over 40, but at peak periods it can get up to 52-54 I'm told...LVP's generally dont go into action until vis drops below 800m from memory.
haughtney1, the number of movements is not a useful indication because the arrival rate is the limiting factor.
As P-Dubby said at the start - it's physics. The only way you're going to do better on one runway is by reducing radar standards & you getting off the runway faster. Gatwick could no more handle 50 arrivals in an hour than BN.
As P-Dubby said at the start - it's physics. The only way you're going to do better on one runway is by reducing radar standards & you getting off the runway faster. Gatwick could no more handle 50 arrivals in an hour than BN.
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Surely Govt, BAC, ATC (whoever is doing the ass covering) could get parallel runway ops back by putting something into ERSA like 'No go-around available RWY14 during parallel ops' or similar.
The Cirrus pilot didn't follow the missed approach procedures anyway, hence the close encounter. If it had done so, there would have been no incident.
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P-D, I have no doubt you are accurate in what you say, but where does the 45 mins come from if the numbers you speak of ring true?
Is 45 min a usual figure? or is it exceptional based on an exceptional set of circumstances? just wondering.
With respect to the movement rate, the a/c mix at BNE and LGW is broadly similar, mostly medium jets with a heavy or 3 thrown into the mix...and of course those pesky TP's floating about as well.
FWIW, my experience of Vegas app and twr has been pretty good, and as our usual arrival times are mostly outside peak times..we never usually have any bother.
At LGW (as a comparison) its pretty much always peak time...and yet with a similar runway, less airspace, and certainly a far greater volume of traffic, the worst holding delay in wx above CAT1 was in the region of 20 mins. So with that in mind, where is the difference? is it procedural? is it a systemic difference? is it a competancy issue? (both pilots and controllers?) Or is it perhaps more a cultural or corporate reluctance to deal with these peak traffic periods as effectively as possible?
I know Oz has some unusual procedural stuff (as does the UK, USA, and everywhere else!) so does this contribute into the mix?
Interesting stuff...and I'm interested in the answers, cos we all learn from this.
Is 45 min a usual figure? or is it exceptional based on an exceptional set of circumstances? just wondering.
With respect to the movement rate, the a/c mix at BNE and LGW is broadly similar, mostly medium jets with a heavy or 3 thrown into the mix...and of course those pesky TP's floating about as well.
FWIW, my experience of Vegas app and twr has been pretty good, and as our usual arrival times are mostly outside peak times..we never usually have any bother.
At LGW (as a comparison) its pretty much always peak time...and yet with a similar runway, less airspace, and certainly a far greater volume of traffic, the worst holding delay in wx above CAT1 was in the region of 20 mins. So with that in mind, where is the difference? is it procedural? is it a systemic difference? is it a competancy issue? (both pilots and controllers?) Or is it perhaps more a cultural or corporate reluctance to deal with these peak traffic periods as effectively as possible?
I know Oz has some unusual procedural stuff (as does the UK, USA, and everywhere else!) so does this contribute into the mix?
Interesting stuff...and I'm interested in the answers, cos we all learn from this.