J* have a ways to go understanding fatigue
Cheers snoop.
I knew I was correct, but in this game you realize someone always thinks their opinion is the right one.
I suffer acute fatigue after every flight, but I sleep, I wake up and I feel fine.
If I didn't, then I would start to wonder if i were starting to feel the affects of chronic fatigue. If I did, I'd take a holiday...........what my bid was unsuccessful? I need to fly 5 earlies straight next roster?? WHAT!!! You want me to work on my RDO?? WHAT??? you don't want to give me a day in lieu? WHAT!!! You want me to work on my DIL?? WHAT???I am rostered to fly with a 200 hour cadet whilst I am fatigued on my 5th early straight??? WHAT????We are hiring Pilots outside the EBA???WHAT!!!The cadets are getting bases that I've been trying to get for 2 years and I'm stuck in Darwin????WHAT!!!
And they wonder why Pilots revolt.........
And so it goes
I knew I was correct, but in this game you realize someone always thinks their opinion is the right one.
I suffer acute fatigue after every flight, but I sleep, I wake up and I feel fine.
If I didn't, then I would start to wonder if i were starting to feel the affects of chronic fatigue. If I did, I'd take a holiday...........what my bid was unsuccessful? I need to fly 5 earlies straight next roster?? WHAT!!! You want me to work on my RDO?? WHAT??? you don't want to give me a day in lieu? WHAT!!! You want me to work on my DIL?? WHAT???I am rostered to fly with a 200 hour cadet whilst I am fatigued on my 5th early straight??? WHAT????We are hiring Pilots outside the EBA???WHAT!!!The cadets are getting bases that I've been trying to get for 2 years and I'm stuck in Darwin????WHAT!!!
And they wonder why Pilots revolt.........
And so it goes
When you live....
"I definately don't operate to my normal standard"
And, to come to the conclusion that he doesn't operate to the best of his abilitly, he had to 'trial and error' - would have hated to be on a flight which was an 'error'.
Light reading:
137.300 Pilot to be fit for duty
(1) The pilot must not commence an application operation if he or she is not fit for duty.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(2) The operator of an aeroplane to be used in an application operation must not allow the pilot to commence the operation if the operator has reason to believe that the pilot is not fit for duty.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(3) For subregulations (1) and (2), a pilot is not fit for duty if, for example:
(a) he or she has not had adequate rest, food or drink; or
(b) he or she is adversely affected by a medical condition or a psychoactive substance.
Note The expression psychoactive substances refers to alcohol, drugs and volatile solvents, but not coffee and tobacco: see clause 60 of Part 2 of the Dictionary.
(4) In paragraph (3) (b):
medical includes psychological and psychiatric.
(5) A contravention of subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict liability.
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/
67.270 Offence — doing act while efficiency impaired
(1) This regulation applies in relation to a licence of any of the following kinds:
(a) flight crew licence;
(b) special pilot licence;
(c) flight radiotelephone licence;
(d) air traffic controller licence.
(2) The holder of the licence must not do an act authorised by the licence if at the time:
(a) he or she knows that he or she has a medically significant condition; and
(b) the condition has the result that his or her ability to do the act is impaired.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Light reading:
137.300 Pilot to be fit for duty
(1) The pilot must not commence an application operation if he or she is not fit for duty.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(2) The operator of an aeroplane to be used in an application operation must not allow the pilot to commence the operation if the operator has reason to believe that the pilot is not fit for duty.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(3) For subregulations (1) and (2), a pilot is not fit for duty if, for example:
(a) he or she has not had adequate rest, food or drink; or
(b) he or she is adversely affected by a medical condition or a psychoactive substance.
Note The expression psychoactive substances refers to alcohol, drugs and volatile solvents, but not coffee and tobacco: see clause 60 of Part 2 of the Dictionary.
(4) In paragraph (3) (b):
medical includes psychological and psychiatric.
(5) A contravention of subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict liability.
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/
67.270 Offence — doing act while efficiency impaired
(1) This regulation applies in relation to a licence of any of the following kinds:
(a) flight crew licence;
(b) special pilot licence;
(c) flight radiotelephone licence;
(d) air traffic controller licence.
(2) The holder of the licence must not do an act authorised by the licence if at the time:
(a) he or she knows that he or she has a medically significant condition; and
(b) the condition has the result that his or her ability to do the act is impaired.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/
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I left Jetstar a few years ago, having started with them at Qantaslink, and surviving the dreadful 'evolution' into Jetstar. I was Cabin Crew, and I saw the beginning of the end for me a couple of years before my actual departure.
The attitude from the top down is 'get over yourselves, deal with it' and my personal favourite, 'if you don't like it, leave'. Whether it's fatigue, or common-sense safety in practice...it didn't matter. Any solution that was seen to either cost money, or even engage the workforce, didn't register.
Fast forward a few years, I'm with a different carrier, and studying my Masters, majoring in human factors. With the benefit of study, different perspectives since leaving JQ and my own experiences, I am, for want of a better word, gobsmacked that any pilot can in all conscience can mitigate fatigue as being a non-issue.
For years now, the RTA/TAC and relevant bodies have been enforcing the need for drivers of cars to not drive while tired - yet, apparently, 'princesses' in charge of multi-million dollar aircraft, with 100's of souls on board at a speed of 800km p/h, are the issue in this case, not anything to do with unsound rostering, shortages, and lack of resources at JQ, which for the record were the same issues that existed years ago when I left.
I gravely fear that it's going to take something catastrophic for anyone with any considerable power to force both our Government, and this country, to recognise that our air system is being saved by good fortune, and little else. The sad fact of our so-called 'perfectly safe' aviation system is that it's created generational complacency - especially in the public's mind - towards issues that can have serious consequences in undermining that safety. Joe Public probably doesn't give two hoots if pilots carried on about fatigue. He might, however, have a different perspective if a loved one of his was involved in a fatal accident.
The public's attitudes operate largely on hindsight and experiences. I'd hope that as far as this inquiry is concerned, we can stop the rot before something more serious has to yield change.
The attitude from the top down is 'get over yourselves, deal with it' and my personal favourite, 'if you don't like it, leave'. Whether it's fatigue, or common-sense safety in practice...it didn't matter. Any solution that was seen to either cost money, or even engage the workforce, didn't register.
Fast forward a few years, I'm with a different carrier, and studying my Masters, majoring in human factors. With the benefit of study, different perspectives since leaving JQ and my own experiences, I am, for want of a better word, gobsmacked that any pilot can in all conscience can mitigate fatigue as being a non-issue.
For years now, the RTA/TAC and relevant bodies have been enforcing the need for drivers of cars to not drive while tired - yet, apparently, 'princesses' in charge of multi-million dollar aircraft, with 100's of souls on board at a speed of 800km p/h, are the issue in this case, not anything to do with unsound rostering, shortages, and lack of resources at JQ, which for the record were the same issues that existed years ago when I left.
I gravely fear that it's going to take something catastrophic for anyone with any considerable power to force both our Government, and this country, to recognise that our air system is being saved by good fortune, and little else. The sad fact of our so-called 'perfectly safe' aviation system is that it's created generational complacency - especially in the public's mind - towards issues that can have serious consequences in undermining that safety. Joe Public probably doesn't give two hoots if pilots carried on about fatigue. He might, however, have a different perspective if a loved one of his was involved in a fatal accident.
The public's attitudes operate largely on hindsight and experiences. I'd hope that as far as this inquiry is concerned, we can stop the rot before something more serious has to yield change.
I gravely fear that it's going to take something catastrophic for anyone with any considerable power to force both our Government, and this country, to recognise that our air system is being saved by good fortune, and little else.
The regulator is still stuck in a "self regulation" mindset towards all major airlines, and have yet to adapt to LCC thinking, but are being hurried along that pathway by this enquiry.
Only new regulation will save us from these market forces and bonus driven managers. And it is regulation that they fear.
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'if you don't like it, leave'
!
Don't think we have much support out the from Joe Public regarding flight/cabin crew fatigue
Not that I disagree at all about the whole cadet crap... But seriously, ask all the rescue helicopter/fixed wing operators out there about BOC flying (launching at any hour with little or no notice)... Maybe some forward planning should enable pilots to be well rested prior to signing on? You do know your roster do you not? (have a kip before you goto work), granted it's not problem solved, but it helps.
I don't condone of any dodgy practices, but seriously it takes two to tango? How many jet* pilots keep a sleep diary, and actually get the required amount of sleep IAW some FRMS...
** I fly choppers so clearly I have no connection to Jet*, however the principles remain the same do they not re: BOC flying? ie know your shift and get adequate rest prior to signing on?
I don't condone of any dodgy practices, but seriously it takes two to tango? How many jet* pilots keep a sleep diary, and actually get the required amount of sleep IAW some FRMS...
** I fly choppers so clearly I have no connection to Jet*, however the principles remain the same do they not re: BOC flying? ie know your shift and get adequate rest prior to signing on?
havick- very valid point but the issue can still be with the rostering. If you are rostered to within flight and duty limits it is still very possible to be (short term) fatigued after a 3 or 4 day grouping. For instance you could have a minimum rest overnight (9hrs FoD) with a 10 hour duty day either side, followed by a 5am sign on the following day followed by a 6am sign on for a 6 sector day on the 4th day. This could be surrounded by days off, but that 4th day you are pretty much a vegetable and are making little mistakes left right and centre.
I use the above example as that has been rostered where I work. Thankfully not very often, but it can happen, and when it does even adjusting your sleep patterns for that week doesn't fully mitigate the fatigue that has set in by the 4th day.....let alone if you are rostered for 6 days in a row!!
Jetstar should be hauled over the coals if this staff intimidation is causing pilots not to report fatigue and/or other reportable matters in a SMS format.
I use the above example as that has been rostered where I work. Thankfully not very often, but it can happen, and when it does even adjusting your sleep patterns for that week doesn't fully mitigate the fatigue that has set in by the 4th day.....let alone if you are rostered for 6 days in a row!!
Jetstar should be hauled over the coals if this staff intimidation is causing pilots not to report fatigue and/or other reportable matters in a SMS format.
nope.. I don't know the airline roster at all (cut me down at the knees right here and now)... But is it that difficult to get adequate rest prior to signing on (given that you know your roster in advance)? Extending a promulgated roster clearly a different kettle of fish..
Like I said, I don't condone dodgy practices. But there's plenty of other operators out there flying BOC operations, at short notice and far more complex missions. They seem to prepare themselves adequately for the tasking without too much trouble, if fatigue starts coming an issue then there is adequate protocols in place to knock back a job (have your sleep diary in hand), if the whole of the pilot group is too scared to act within the bounds of your FRMS then you're obviously rolling over (putting your own lives and pax lives at risk).
Just some food for thought..
** Key point being, have a sleep diary. Most FRMS's reference a sleep diary, it's up to the you to understand your own limitations and ensure that you are adequately rested for your shifts. If it all turns to poo, you have your trusted sleep diary in hand to back up your decisions. what do you think the ATSB will ask to see if the 'touch wood' horror situation occurs.
Like I said, I don't condone dodgy practices. But there's plenty of other operators out there flying BOC operations, at short notice and far more complex missions. They seem to prepare themselves adequately for the tasking without too much trouble, if fatigue starts coming an issue then there is adequate protocols in place to knock back a job (have your sleep diary in hand), if the whole of the pilot group is too scared to act within the bounds of your FRMS then you're obviously rolling over (putting your own lives and pax lives at risk).
Just some food for thought..
** Key point being, have a sleep diary. Most FRMS's reference a sleep diary, it's up to the you to understand your own limitations and ensure that you are adequately rested for your shifts. If it all turns to poo, you have your trusted sleep diary in hand to back up your decisions. what do you think the ATSB will ask to see if the 'touch wood' horror situation occurs.
Last edited by havick; 31st Mar 2011 at 11:21.
There is adequate rest....and there is good rest. Im sure most of us here know the difference. You are right havick, adequate rest should be a no-brainer if you have a roster. But getting 5 hours sleep (which may be adequate) before a 5am sign-on because your body wont shut off at 8pm as that was about mid-sector for most of your flying done the week before is not going to be 'good' sleep.
Its this chopping and changing week to week and in Jetstars case it seems, within the week, that causes the most of fatigue through unstable sleep cycles.
Im not an expert in the field, but have done my share of night freight and 'airline' rosters so Rondair, with respect, if you havent had to do it please keep your comments to yourself.
Its this chopping and changing week to week and in Jetstars case it seems, within the week, that causes the most of fatigue through unstable sleep cycles.
Im not an expert in the field, but have done my share of night freight and 'airline' rosters so Rondair, with respect, if you havent had to do it please keep your comments to yourself.
Rondair...
Brilliant. You've summarily solved the conundrum of years of research into sleep deficit, circadian disrhythmia, shifting sleep patterns & their affect on human performance! Take it to The Lancet journal.
And to think it was so simple!
And to think it was so simple!
chadzdat..
Im not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that there's more factors in play.
Most pilots are mature and endeavour to achieve adequate rest prior to their shift.. Sometimes it can happen that you're too tired (regardless of attempt to achieve adequate sleep), does Jet* have reserve crew in place for this instance? Once again going back to the rescue chopper world, there is always (operator dependant of course) a reserve crew should the primary crews get flogged.
That being said, how many pilots (youngens and oldies) do you know turn up to work after being out the night before or renovating the house etc instead of making sure they are well rested.
Ive been guilty in the past, and have changed my ways.
** Maybe I'm just fortunate and work for a good operation, the annual FRMS training (chief pilot/ head of flying operations drumming into you their expectations) seems to sink in.
I've said my piece, fly safe
TID Edit
Im not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that there's more factors in play.
Most pilots are mature and endeavour to achieve adequate rest prior to their shift.. Sometimes it can happen that you're too tired (regardless of attempt to achieve adequate sleep), does Jet* have reserve crew in place for this instance? Once again going back to the rescue chopper world, there is always (operator dependant of course) a reserve crew should the primary crews get flogged.
That being said, how many pilots (youngens and oldies) do you know turn up to work after being out the night before or renovating the house etc instead of making sure they are well rested.
Ive been guilty in the past, and have changed my ways.
** Maybe I'm just fortunate and work for a good operation, the annual FRMS training (chief pilot/ head of flying operations drumming into you their expectations) seems to sink in.
I've said my piece, fly safe
TID Edit
Last edited by Tidbinbilla; 31st Mar 2011 at 18:01.
and im not disagreeing with you! Its a complex topic!
Of course responsibility lies with the pilot as well. Getting back to the topic of the thread, for a manager of any kind to send that sort of email to the troops is pretty ordinary to say the least. Clearly that particular pairing has been flagged as an "issue" for multiple crews to have illicited that sort of a response from a base manager. If CASA were worth their salt they would be AT LEAST looking into these things that are popping up because of a Senate inquiry, as pilot fatigue is as big a risk as making sure an operators AOC has been printed on the right gsm paper.
Its a complex topic!Of course responsibility lies with the pilot as well. Getting back to the topic of the thread, for a manager of any kind to send that sort of email to the troops is pretty ordinary to say the least. Clearly that particular pairing has been flagged as an "issue" for multiple crews to have illicited that sort of a response from a base manager. If CASA were worth their salt they would be AT LEAST looking into these things that are popping up because of a Senate inquiry, as pilot fatigue is as big a risk as making sure an operators AOC has been printed on the right gsm paper.
Its this chopping and changing week to week and in Jetstars case it seems, within the week, that causes the most of fatigue through unstable sleep cycles.
On the face of it a 29 hour break is a big break, but for me, If I finish at midnight, home by 0045hrs, I won't wind down enough to sleep until about 2am, so then if I get 8 hours I'm awake at 10am and have to be in bed again asleep at 8pm in order to get a full nights sleep. The reality is I will still be awake at 11pm or if I'm unlucky midnight, I'l get about 3hours forty five minutes sleep, and then my alarm goes off for a rostered 11 hour day.
So for me it's the re-setting of the body clock that is difficult and my roster is as I said, less demanding than the chop/change J* rosters I have seen.
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You don't know what you don't know. Before doing B.O.C. flying I used to think how hard can a 6 hour flight signing on at 1 am "body clock" time be. It is a lot more taxing than it sounds to the un initiated, especially if you do them often, switching time zones, mixed in with other shifts in the same 28 day cylcle which are 180 degrees out of phase. None of this is taking into account noisy Hotel rest, very different to home or company rest area. No crew rest (short haul), list goes on. So yes i would say it is that difficult at times to get adequate rest before a shift.
Havick are you trying to tell us that you are in your chopper for 8-9 hours BOC with a 1/2 hour turn around in the middle of 2 sectors. Then you get back to your base at 7:00am then sign on again at 7:00 that night for another 8-9 hours flying with the same turnaround. Or while you are waiting for that call-out are you actually able to get some rest during your BOC duty?
For the "International" sectors J* would make you repeat the above scenario for 4 to 5 nights in a row. There is no reserve crew. Usually individuals are contacted on their day off to operate. That pilots will agree to it is another question but the rosters as they are published give you little opportunity for adequate rest. If it was once in a while it would be managable but the Darwin and the Perth crews get a steady stream of BOC. Even the "toughen up princesses" base manager admitted in his email that he was feeling the pinch but that was ok as he just got on with the job.
For the "International" sectors J* would make you repeat the above scenario for 4 to 5 nights in a row. There is no reserve crew. Usually individuals are contacted on their day off to operate. That pilots will agree to it is another question but the rosters as they are published give you little opportunity for adequate rest. If it was once in a while it would be managable but the Darwin and the Perth crews get a steady stream of BOC. Even the "toughen up princesses" base manager admitted in his email that he was feeling the pinch but that was ok as he just got on with the job.
lookleft. Reserve crew being the saving grace. Clearly jet* doesn't adequately budget for them, maybe they should.
comparing rescue work (24hr rosters) with airline rosters is like comparing apples with a lamb skewer, it's just not comparable. both have their own peculiarities..
Reference your scenario, not at my base (crash response but not EMS) but at others that is very possible. If being flogged on the 2nd shift in a row then hopefully the pilot would call in their reserve crew (being the key). Then again, they could be playing xbox/sleeping all shift, but you never know what could happen.
At least airline drivers know what they've got on the cards.. I'm just adding my own thoughts, that is allowed isn't it?
** the point I'm trying to put forward is that Jet* clearly don't have adequate staff in reserve. Also there will always be some pilots that just don't bother to do the right thing and rest up when they know what their roster is, that's just a side note.
comparing rescue work (24hr rosters) with airline rosters is like comparing apples with a lamb skewer, it's just not comparable. both have their own peculiarities..
Reference your scenario, not at my base (crash response but not EMS) but at others that is very possible. If being flogged on the 2nd shift in a row then hopefully the pilot would call in their reserve crew (being the key). Then again, they could be playing xbox/sleeping all shift, but you never know what could happen.
At least airline drivers know what they've got on the cards.. I'm just adding my own thoughts, that is allowed isn't it?
** the point I'm trying to put forward is that Jet* clearly don't have adequate staff in reserve. Also there will always be some pilots that just don't bother to do the right thing and rest up when they know what their roster is, that's just a side note.