J* have a ways to go understanding fatigue

[1a sound asleep]

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2...star-email.pdf

Full email link, if anybody hasnt seen it

[Keg]

To address the original post...

J* have a ways to go understanding fatigue

I suspect they understand it perfectly. I also suspect that they're doing their very best to:
a. Stop crew from dropping trips because of it,
b. intimidate crews into not reporting it,
c. Ensuring that the senators think that pilots don't work that hard.

I fear for the direction this industry is taking.

[abc1]

There is truth to ''Reap what you sow'' proverb after all.

Maybe the Cadets can take note of what they will be faced with one day.

Because Joe public cares only about low fares everyday and not how that is actually possible.

[Sunfish]

Mr. Joyce has got to leave Qantas right now if what he said to the Committee was reported correctly.

The Jetstar email demonstrates that the actual safety culture at Qantas is completely at variance with the official safety culture.

I can hear a Senior counsel cross examining Joyce after the Third smoking hole:

"Mr. Joyce, how do you reconcile your statement to the Senate Committee to the effect that: "It is up to the pilot to identify if he is feeling fatigue ... and shouldn't be flying," with the threat implicit in the Jetstar email, that if pilots complained of fatigue the Perth base would be downsized or closed?"

[The Kelpie]

Even Moodys has lost confidence in the Rat.

Negative outlook and degradation of credit rating with possible further downgrades.

Now that is something that Alan will understand!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[teresa green]

Watching Joyce last night on the ABC, I would like to be a fly on the wall when the offending writer is brought in for "tea and bickies". When you retire it does not take you long to realise how tired you were, for years, but still able to operate very well. You still have to have a family life, often with small children, you still have to stop the house fulling down around you with work to be done, and you do this with your body clock still out of kilter, often this leads to being irritable, which in turn leads to the missus getting the dirts, which in turn leads to family problems. I am not saying this happens in all households but it sure as hell happens in many, too many. The divorce rate amongst pilots is very high, always has been, it is a profession that is numbered up there with military, police, and politicians. So not only are you tired, but you have to try to keep the missus on side, and it is very hard on the wives, left with small demanding kids, they have to become independent, and most important of all realise your need to rest, given they need to rest too and need a break, it becomes a balancing act. Many get thru it, some don't, and the sadness of family breakup becomes a real threat. So this is more than about fatigue, its about a whole lifestyle, and needs to be addressed as such.

[Come in spinner]

Jetstar rostering practices = fatigue
In a previous life I was require to do 4-5 BoC in a row. Having young children I got 1-2 hrs sleep before they woke up another 4-5 during the day if I was lucky and used my 2 days off to catch up and coped. In Jetstar I struggle with this roster
Day Off
5am start 10 hr shift
3pm start 10 hr shift
7pm start 11hrs shift BoC
36 hrs off followed by 8 am start
Day Off
Some of those are 4 sector days and 200 hr cadets on the way.
I am one of the first to put my hand up and say I don’t work anywhere near as much people in other industries but for Christ sake Jetstar do something about the rosters

[framer]

Day Off
5am start 10 hr shift
3pm start 10 hr shift
7pm start 11hrs shift BoC
36 hrs off followed by 8 am start
Day Off

Ok, so, go to sleep at 8pm in order to get 8 hours sleep,(hope your kids are quiet and you can actually drift off and the missus doesn't wake you on her way to bed) wake at four am day one, finish at 3pm, home at 4pm....no problem. Pretty tired after a long day, don't wanna obey the body clock though and go to bed at 8pm or you'l wake at 5am after nine hours so you should hang out til at least 10pm, sleep 8hours til 6am....sweet....you've got your 8hrs sleep, leave home at 2pm and arrive back at 2am feeling pretty rubbish as 48hrs ago that was pretty much your alarm time. Wind down, in bed by 3am. Try to sleep through til 11am but you wake at about 8am as yesterday you were waking at 6am. Bugger, only 5hours sleep. Leave for work at 6pm after being awake for 10 hours, then start an 11 hour duty, on final approach you've been awake for 21 hours after a five hour sleep the day before, better hope you don't have a tricky crosswind onto a wet runway combined with some sort of mechanical failure, and if you do better hope your mate is switched on and has your back.....oh no thats right he has 200 hours and is maxed out with normal proceedures let alone something out of the ordinary.....but you pull it off, it's now 6am, home at 7am, kids running around your ankles til 8am, you collapse into bed (missus takes kids to the park to get them away from a grumpy Dad), you get your 8 hours....it's 4pm and you're day is beginning, you'd better stay up in front of the discovery channel til 4am while your family sleeps though because you need to sleep through til lunchtime if you're going to avoid being awake for ten hours before the next shift starts and the whole process starts again.
What are you moaning about Come In Spinner? Sounds like a nice way to exist to me.

[framer]

Day one alarm = 6am
Day two alarm= 2pm
Day three alarm = 5pm
This is the problem, not the number of hours, if they were doing the same number of hours but starting at the same time each day they would be fine. J* doesn't employ enough staff to allow a stable roster. Instead they plug holes with the pilots they do have. This situation will never change unless there is legislation that acknowledges that although the rest period is significant, the change in sleep patterns is just as important. Either that or the company needs to hand out sleeping pills so their pilots can get the required rest when fitting in with the schedule.

[breakfastburrito]

These came out of yesterdays hearing:

Use of bio-mathematical models of human fatigue - further information on the Fatigue Audit InterDyne Model
Rail transport operators that are using the FAID model should review the findings of the United States Department of Transportation Federal Railroad Administration report titled titled Procedures for Validation and Calibration of Human Fatigue Models: The Fatigue Audit InterDyne Tool, in conjunction with the previous information provided by ITSR (Transport Safety Alert no. 34) and consider the applicability of the findings for the context in which they are using FAID in their operations.

Source:NSW Independant Transport regulator - Alert [pdf]

Use of bio-mathematical models in managing risks of human fatigue in the workplace
This alert outlines some of the limitations of fatigue models drawing on findings of a review of computerbased fatigue models undertaken by ITSR. The purpose of this alert is not to criticise fatigue modelling but to alert the rail industry of potential limitations in the use of such modelling, and to provide strategies for incorporating fatigue modelling into a fatigue risk management regime.

Source:NSW Independant Transport regulator - Alert [.pdf]

The basic problem that a computerised rostering will generate roster for LOWEST COST within the rules & regulations and mathematical fatigue models. It will, without thinking push to the edge of these envelopes without thinking about the consequence. LOWEST COST is the only parameter that is important. As we can see from the above links, there are deficiencies in these mathematical modesl. Remember, this is only at the roster build stage. The biggest problem is undercrewing and therefore the carefully constructed roster with its limits goes out the window to meet the minimum legal requirements. FAID and all the other "humanising" constrains are thrown out the window to anwser the question "is it legal".

There is your problem right there, the intersection of the roster build and the actual line flown. The first is"in theory", the second "in reality".
What should be occurring is an retrospective audit of all actual flown lines to compared to the FRM models by the regulator. Rostering is not about theory, it is about the actual practices.

[breakfastburrito]

Lets do a hypothetical. Say that your flying for a base exceeded the "roster build capabilities" of the mathematical fatigue model and humanising factors for whatever reason. If you let the roster build occur, patterns will be built to the "company parameters" and the rosters will be published. However, there will be a significant amount of un-crewed flying.

This flying could then be assigned to crew outside of those build constraints, now it only needs to meet the CAO48E requirements. Hands can be put on hearts, saying we have all these worlds best "onion skin" protections built into the rostering system, with all the business friendliness of the CAO48E in reality.
Just a theory.

[joe cool69]

My favourite....

Day1/ 5am
Day2/ 6am
Day3/ BOC
Day4/ BOC

OFF (2 if your lucky)

Day6/ 5am

It is the transition back into the early after a couple of BOC's that hurt. Starting that day 6, puts you straight onto the back foot in regards to fatigue. Do this continuously over the year and you will be fatigued.

I do my best to manage rest but most of the time my body just doesn't know what the hell is happening

[Capt Toss Parker]

Fatigue Issues ...

[neville_nobody]

YouTube - Too Tired to Fly

[jibba_jabba]

yep agreed,

fight fire with fire so to speak. The masses are ever more bombarded with the 5minunte news clip where big business has there say, why dont we spend some money and get out the fact that you will die in a plane crash from something completely preventable!

God dam, we are the most piss-weak employees ever!
bitch bitch bitch but are so divided management just they just laugh... especially when there bonus's and dividends come in!
so painful.

[LT Selfridge]

Look into a crystal ball.

[GA Driver]

intimidation in this email is alarming and indicates that there may be a bullying culture

Hmmm maybe ask those pilots who HAVE called in fatigued and had their pay docked...

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Greenslopes "seemingly J* have learned nothing from the Colgan Crash"
There was nothing wrong with the Colgan schedule it was the crews travelling pre flight that contributed to the fatigue.

Sometimes you Nigels do need reminding what's happening in the outside world and i thought it was actually quiet good - no offence sorry. I admire the guy for having the balls to send it.

[Lookleft]

Quite good-in what way? The bloke who sent it admitted in his email that he has flown when he was below standard so probably UFD. If he had any balls he would be looking to do something about the roster such as make some of the BOC one way with a night stop. Airlines like J* think that to save some money on accommodation that the pilots have to wear the duties that result.

The sub-text to his "gutsy" email is that he doesn't want the base closed as he is from WA. Well if J* need to close bases again due to the current "difficult operating conditions" and Perth is the first to go then I suggest that he "toughen up princess" and move his goods and chattels and family back east just like many other relocated j* pilots.

[ejectx3]

The reason us nigels have to commute is the salaries are so piss poor that we can't afford to live in the cities we are based.