QANTAS AIPA 7.30 report
Hey ANQ;
Your bitterness if preventing you from realising that no-one is claiming this... Our beef with this matter is one minute AJ is patting us on the backs on TV then a few months later he's at our backs again, this time with a knife.
NOIP/ozbiggles,
A little precious are we not.
Which part don’t you agree with?
There have been many cases of seriously disabled airliners surviving through the skills and training of non QF pilots. I am not suggesting QF pilots are not well trained or experienced, but MOST other fliers are also.
Its nice to see the back slapping on TV of the crew involved but it is creating a false image that QF pilots are unique.
TID edit
A little precious are we not.
Which part don’t you agree with?
There have been many cases of seriously disabled airliners surviving through the skills and training of non QF pilots. I am not suggesting QF pilots are not well trained or experienced, but MOST other fliers are also.
Its nice to see the back slapping on TV of the crew involved but it is creating a false image that QF pilots are unique.
TID edit
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An
You made a generalised, armchair statement about situations that were considerably more complex than you allude to.
No-one is saying QF mainline pilots are any better than any other pilot group from other First level airlines. They all strive to better themselves.
And I hate to burst your bubble, but if you think that on a world-wide basis, most other pilots are well trained or experienced, you need to get out more. Hence - would most pilots have returned the aircraft to terra-firma? Absolutely, they ALL would have. Not necessarily in one piece, or on the runway with a good touchdown and without an over-run or immolation though. A large number would NOT have achieved the outcome.
Just like the Hudson River. A great result in both cases by dedicated professionals that had luck, skill and great decision making on their side.
N
You made a generalised, armchair statement about situations that were considerably more complex than you allude to.
No-one is saying QF mainline pilots are any better than any other pilot group from other First level airlines. They all strive to better themselves.
And I hate to burst your bubble, but if you think that on a world-wide basis, most other pilots are well trained or experienced, you need to get out more. Hence - would most pilots have returned the aircraft to terra-firma? Absolutely, they ALL would have. Not necessarily in one piece, or on the runway with a good touchdown and without an over-run or immolation though. A large number would NOT have achieved the outcome.
Just like the Hudson River. A great result in both cases by dedicated professionals that had luck, skill and great decision making on their side.
N
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"No-one is saying QF mainline pilots are any better than any other pilot group from other First level airlines."
Maybe not directly. But there are a lot of posts here from people who clearly allude to such an idea. And the media are gulping it up too, for the ratings.
And what exactly is a first level airline?
Maybe not directly. But there are a lot of posts here from people who clearly allude to such an idea. And the media are gulping it up too, for the ratings.
And what exactly is a first level airline?
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Jack Ranga -
QF pilots are the only crews who could have recovered this scenario??? That's bollocks.
I agree that most 380 pilots would get it back on the ground. The aircraft saved them.
QF pilots are the only crews who could have recovered this scenario??? That's bollocks.
I agree that most 380 pilots would get it back on the ground. The aircraft saved them.
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Aircraft or crew saved the A380 situation? This would be the textbook definition of a hypothetical question. This question is unanswerable in any meaningful way. The scenario cannot & will not be replicated. Good engineering & good crew performance saved the day. That is the only conclusion that can be drawn.
One thing we can say, is that given some recent accidents, Adam Air, Yogyakarta, Taipei (SQ) & Turkish, QF1 amongst others, that crew performance does make a significant difference to the outcome. QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge. I would expect crews from many other other high standard operators from around the world to also meet these challenges, but it is not a forgone conclusion that every crew sitting in an RPT high capacity jet world wide can deal with every problem to a safe outcome. If it were, there would be no accidents.
One thing we can say, is that given some recent accidents, Adam Air, Yogyakarta, Taipei (SQ) & Turkish, QF1 amongst others, that crew performance does make a significant difference to the outcome. QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge. I would expect crews from many other other high standard operators from around the world to also meet these challenges, but it is not a forgone conclusion that every crew sitting in an RPT high capacity jet world wide can deal with every problem to a safe outcome. If it were, there would be no accidents.
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I really hope it doesn't come to flight cancellation/delays but if it does the Australan media will smash the pilots. I can see the scenes now at airports around Australia with the A Current Affair reporters interviewing frothing at the mouth , angry overweight Yanks complaining that this "would never happen back home".
The incorrect public perception of pilots is that of an overpaid elite , jetting around the globe staying in 5 star hotels.The right wing conservative media will follow this line. I can see Mel or Kochie out at SIT now turning the whole thing into some obscene spectator sport not unlike their coverage of the Qld floods or the CHC earthquake.
Only one thing to do. Totally ignore all media coverage. If pilots are seriously concerned what Laws, Jones, Hadley , Grimshaw et al report then you may as well hoist the white flag now.
The incorrect public perception of pilots is that of an overpaid elite , jetting around the globe staying in 5 star hotels.The right wing conservative media will follow this line. I can see Mel or Kochie out at SIT now turning the whole thing into some obscene spectator sport not unlike their coverage of the Qld floods or the CHC earthquake.
Only one thing to do. Totally ignore all media coverage. If pilots are seriously concerned what Laws, Jones, Hadley , Grimshaw et al report then you may as well hoist the white flag now.
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If pilots are seriously concerned what Laws, Jones, Hadley , Grimshaw et al report then you may as well hoist the white flag now.
2SM - John Laws - Sydney's Talk, News and Entertainment Station
It's brief and right at the end of the audio highlights for the 10th of March but he does seem to be sympathetic to the pilot's cause, mentioning Job security and nothing about the 26% payrise line from management.
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Sim - You're wrong!
Engineers were in the same position last EBA; company against us, in the media spreading BS, handing out notes to pax saying what bastards we were. We won because we stayed united, had a good media message, and our demands were reasonable.
The pilots have a better case now than we did then. You aren't asking for a big pay rise but fighting a company that is off-shoring your jobs!
The pilots have a better case now than we did then. You aren't asking for a big pay rise but fighting a company that is off-shoring your jobs!
Last edited by Millet Fanger; 10th Mar 2011 at 09:33. Reason: Typo
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Whatever the LAME's achieved in their last dispute does not mean they will repeat that this time , nor the Pilots. Please stop this belief that things can go on as they where ! and get better. the world has changed for the better or the worse , for me the worse . I am an old unconstructed trade Unionist,sorry but i call it as I see it. Start too plan to protect for the future . Please!
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Other Australian workers are next!
If Qantas can employ people on overseas awards then other workers will be next. There is a free trade agreement with NZ and America may be next. All australians can be undercut by overseas workers if they get away with this one.
All you need is training in NZ (or soon in the USA) and a company regsistered there so you can use their employment conditions and pay scales.
Isn't that scary.
That appears to be what Qantas are trying to start
Joe public will be VERY interested in that.
All you need is training in NZ (or soon in the USA) and a company regsistered there so you can use their employment conditions and pay scales.
Isn't that scary.
That appears to be what Qantas are trying to start
Joe public will be VERY interested in that.
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Well media reports that the AIPA have cooled on lodging their application for a PiA ballot until at least next week when further meetings occur. The report I read noted that the AIPA came out an said the 2.5% increase trying to distance itself from the 26% figure. Not a bad ploy publicly. Maybe they've been reading some of the posts here 
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Truth is the first casualty of PIA, just ask the engineers. Seems to me your biggest problem is not what Qf will do but what JQ pilots flying the same machines for less money (A330) will do. That is what QF will use against you, you will seriously need to get them on side.
The next trojan horse will be the 787, why else would jetstar be getting them first if not to dictate the wage rate to all pilots and possibly engineers.
Good luck to you and stay together.
The next trojan horse will be the 787, why else would jetstar be getting them first if not to dictate the wage rate to all pilots and possibly engineers.
Good luck to you and stay together.
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“Is every QF pilot's ability head and shoulders above every non QF pilot? No.”
How obvious.
“As a group are they very well skilled? Yes.”
As are all airline pilots.
“Did the crew of QF32 do a very good job? You bloody bet they did!!”
As would most other crew. Don’t underestimate the power of using ur rat cunning to get the thing on the ground to save ones ass.
“but if you think that on a world-wide basis, most other pilots are well trained or experienced, you need to get out more.”
Actually, I have been out a lot. Probably more than you. How many airlines have you worked for outside Australia? What do you have to measure QF pilots against?
“QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge.”
So have crews from other airlines. Again, this is the type of comment that goes under the heading of “no one is saying that QF pilots are any better . . . . but gee whiz blah blah blah”. You all love implying it.
Unionist1974 is bang on the money. Be very carefull fighting the previous battle as the landscape has changed dramatically. The 787 will be a game changer industrially for both sides.
How obvious.
“As a group are they very well skilled? Yes.”
As are all airline pilots.
“Did the crew of QF32 do a very good job? You bloody bet they did!!”
As would most other crew. Don’t underestimate the power of using ur rat cunning to get the thing on the ground to save ones ass.
“but if you think that on a world-wide basis, most other pilots are well trained or experienced, you need to get out more.”
Actually, I have been out a lot. Probably more than you. How many airlines have you worked for outside Australia? What do you have to measure QF pilots against?
“QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge.”
So have crews from other airlines. Again, this is the type of comment that goes under the heading of “no one is saying that QF pilots are any better . . . . but gee whiz blah blah blah”. You all love implying it.
Unionist1974 is bang on the money. Be very carefull fighting the previous battle as the landscape has changed dramatically. The 787 will be a game changer industrially for both sides.
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“QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge.”
So have crews from other airlines.
So have crews from other airlines.
Originally Posted by breakfastburrito
QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge. I would expect crews from many other other high standard operators from around the world to also meet these challenges,
"The most serious near disaster QF has ever faced" was probably the accident in BKK.
I presume you are quoting AJ with "The most serious near disaster QF has ever faced" from the 7:30 report, not pilots on this board. So right from the start, your comments have been designed to hijack this thread, using a management quote. Not sure what you agenda is here, but its not to assist pilots in a pay dispute with management. Do you actually have anything constructive to add to the debate, or are you just here to sh1t stir? I don't see any solutions or suggestions to help pilots, just bile. Prove me wrong.
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There are clearly some management types on this thread trying to upset the apple cart. Have fun with them guys, during the LAME dispute 2 years ago when all was settled Kevin Brown made mention that the first thing he did at the end of each day was to log on to Pprune and see what was happening. I got the feeling he was losing focus from the things that really mattered like 1000's of passengers sitting around terminals costing them squillions as the LAMEs got their point across.
Just another thing to watch out for. I read a fair few comments and suggestions from good pilots about how to handle the press, what actions should be taken and other points about how to run a well prepared dispute that is predominently about job security. Some of the suggestions are well intentioned but fatally flawed because of certain sections of the fair work act. Be safe in the knowledge that your leadership team will make decisions based in legal advice and input from others with experience in such matters. Make sure you are lead by one General into this battle, if you all go seperate ways it will get a little messy.
cheers
Steve
Just another thing to watch out for. I read a fair few comments and suggestions from good pilots about how to handle the press, what actions should be taken and other points about how to run a well prepared dispute that is predominently about job security. Some of the suggestions are well intentioned but fatally flawed because of certain sections of the fair work act. Be safe in the knowledge that your leadership team will make decisions based in legal advice and input from others with experience in such matters. Make sure you are lead by one General into this battle, if you all go seperate ways it will get a little messy.
cheers
Steve
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QF pilots are the only crews who could have recovered this scenario??? That's bollocks.
What I highlighted was:
The hero of QF32 was the Airbus. Most drivers worldwide would have returned it to terra firma.
Ya reckon?
Once again, Dale Read The effing Post, comprehend it, and then argue your point.
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The message - Qantas pilots still call Australia home!
Qantas Pilots still call Australia home. What's wrong with that?
For me, this is the thrust of the issue with QF management. As the issue grows I am sure "Joe public" will pick up and support this simple message, if the media run with it.
