Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority
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Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority
"QANTAS pilots will hold crucial talks with airline management tomorrow aimed at shoring up job security, amid worries about the viability of international operations at the nation's major full-service carrier.
The Australian and International Pilots Association is prepared to limit annual pay rises to 2.5 per cent in return for jobs guarantees, but warns that it will apply to take protected industrial action if the company rejects the claim.
The results of the talks will be discussed at pilot meetings on Friday and Monday.
The union, in the new enterprise negotiations, is also seeking changes to the way pilots are promoted so that there is one seniority list throughout the Qantas Group's airlines. Pilots say this would lead to a clearer career path, starting at regional carrier QantasLink and progressing through Jetstar to end with A380 operations with Qantas mainline.
The union's moves come as Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce warned that the airline's full-service international arm was in trouble and vowed to pursue all options to arrest its decline.
Mr Joyce said yesterday he was determined to stop a long-term trend in which Qantas International's market share dropped from 42 per cent in 1977 to less than 20 per cent today."
- Steve Creedy, The Australian
The Australian and International Pilots Association is prepared to limit annual pay rises to 2.5 per cent in return for jobs guarantees, but warns that it will apply to take protected industrial action if the company rejects the claim.
The results of the talks will be discussed at pilot meetings on Friday and Monday.
The union, in the new enterprise negotiations, is also seeking changes to the way pilots are promoted so that there is one seniority list throughout the Qantas Group's airlines. Pilots say this would lead to a clearer career path, starting at regional carrier QantasLink and progressing through Jetstar to end with A380 operations with Qantas mainline.
The union's moves come as Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce warned that the airline's full-service international arm was in trouble and vowed to pursue all options to arrest its decline.
Mr Joyce said yesterday he was determined to stop a long-term trend in which Qantas International's market share dropped from 42 per cent in 1977 to less than 20 per cent today."
- Steve Creedy, The Australian
Last edited by Long John Silver; 7th Feb 2011 at 20:52.
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It's not going to happen! One senority list? How long has it been since Eastern and Sunstate have been trying to merge theirs and what success do they have?
It smells funny how mainline now wants a joint senority in times when intenational part of mainline has gone clunckers. Just imagine that a 5years SO of mainline can outbid a 4 years 11months FO in sunstate who has served their time in the dash for a command spot.
Lets face it. International is a dying for mainline and those pilots need an escape route.
No threat exisits!
It smells funny how mainline now wants a joint senority in times when intenational part of mainline has gone clunckers. Just imagine that a 5years SO of mainline can outbid a 4 years 11months FO in sunstate who has served their time in the dash for a command spot.
Lets face it. International is a dying for mainline and those pilots need an escape route.
No threat exisits!
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The Australian and International Pilots Association is prepared to limit annual pay rises to 2.5 per cent in return for jobs guarantees, but warns that it will apply to take protected industrial action if the company rejects the claim
So you bad boys are actually going for a paycut? Don't know whether you fellas read the papers but the reserve bank are smashing us with interest rate rises trying to control inflation...........that is running at above 2.5%
Don't get me wrong, if a company genuinely needs to control its costs by reducing its wages bill in tough times, go for it
BUT DO YOU THINK JOYCE WILL BE TAKING A PAYCUT DURING THIS PERIOD?
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Sorry Bubble head but you are wrong.
Eastern and Sunstate have been very close to a combined seniorority list for about two years but it is management that, after initially instigating the talks, have no said that there is no need for such a list, not the pilots. In fact i believe the both pilot groups are getting closer together particularly in relation to the debarcle thats called check, check, check and whats that other stuff we should do?
Secondly there are no 4 year 11 month FO's in at QLINK (turbo props) and there are no currently upgradable FO's for vacant command positions. Some recently appointed captains are having there first taste of twin (any twin) command so the idea of SO's able to switch may benefit the "GROUP" as a whole.
Eastern and Sunstate have been very close to a combined seniorority list for about two years but it is management that, after initially instigating the talks, have no said that there is no need for such a list, not the pilots. In fact i believe the both pilot groups are getting closer together particularly in relation to the debarcle thats called check, check, check and whats that other stuff we should do?
Secondly there are no 4 year 11 month FO's in at QLINK (turbo props) and there are no currently upgradable FO's for vacant command positions. Some recently appointed captains are having there first taste of twin (any twin) command so the idea of SO's able to switch may benefit the "GROUP" as a whole.
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Of course QF International is suffering. Of course QF is suffering. This has been the grand plan all along. ALL the money and growth has been poured into Jetstar. This is a 20 year plan people. QF will "loose" money until the paycuts and fear of retrenchments start flowing in. And its working a bloody treat. This is Alan Joyces finest moment, his most decorated performance. Bravo
!
Isn't it strange that now Jetstar are gradually offering extra services over and above that of a true low cost carrier. Jetstar will be repainted in the Qantas colours 20 years after its inception mark my word. The only low cost part of Jetstar will be the employees conditions.
As for single seniority list? Well you might find the company will take that one given that V regional is about to kick off! Word is that within moments of V regional being announced various sausage sizzles took place around the country at Qlink bases.
Qlink employee: do not fall for ploys. If QF didn't want you in the first place they do not want you now. They'll just let a trickle go thru and the rest will be scratching their heads regarding the cubes. ACTION: If V regional offer a leg up into Virgin Australia crush Qlink and leave.
My pet hate is a company increasing conditions ONLY when a threat exists.
. ALL the money and growth has been poured into Jetstar. This is a 20 year plan people. QF will "loose" money until the paycuts and fear of retrenchments start flowing in. And its working a bloody treat. This is Alan Joyces finest moment, his most decorated performance. Bravo!Isn't it strange that now Jetstar are gradually offering extra services over and above that of a true low cost carrier. Jetstar will be repainted in the Qantas colours 20 years after its inception mark my word. The only low cost part of Jetstar will be the employees conditions.
As for single seniority list? Well you might find the company will take that one given that V regional is about to kick off! Word is that within moments of V regional being announced various sausage sizzles took place around the country at Qlink bases.
Qlink employee: do not fall for ploys. If QF didn't want you in the first place they do not want you now. They'll just let a trickle go thru and the rest will be scratching their heads regarding the cubes. ACTION: If V regional offer a leg up into Virgin Australia crush Qlink and leave.
My pet hate is a company increasing conditions ONLY when a threat exists.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 8th Feb 2011 at 01:21.
It smells funny how mainline now wants a joint senority in times when intenational part of mainline has gone clunckers. Just imagine that a 5years SO of mainline can outbid a 4 years 11months FO in sunstate who has served their time in the dash for a command spot.
Back in the times of the TAA*/Qantas merge one primary plank of the integration agreement was that no-one in either organisation would be disadvantaged when it came to promotion in that part of the group. We effectively now have close to one seniority list.
(Introducing a new type is a whole different story.)
*Used TAA to distinguish the airline from the later Australian Airlines.
It may help also to examine careful media placement of information at the time of significant EBA negotiations and the goal of the Chief Executive and Chairman to drive the organisation to the Jetstar model.
And as for accepting a 2.5% p.a. deal if (and it's a big if) that secures the flying under the current agreement, it is a whole lot better than 3% and seeing the A330 and domestic flying become part of the Jetstar network, with or without their current crew, by 2015.
Last edited by C441; 7th Feb 2011 at 22:23.
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As already said, Joyce has got mainline where he wants.
If you can get a 2.5 rise than take it, as he wants a full B scale system. Aka Jetstar wages on mainline.
Surprised it hasn't happened already. Cathay are up to D or something. EK are nothing what they use to be, and the golden singapore contracts of the past are just that. In the past.
Joyce knows he could get jetstar crew tomorrow to fly the 380 for 150K no worries. They would be lining up.
Have no doubt he would shut down mainline international to rebrand and repaint qantas in years to come if thought that would help.
If you can get a 2.5 rise than take it, as he wants a full B scale system. Aka Jetstar wages on mainline.
Surprised it hasn't happened already. Cathay are up to D or something. EK are nothing what they use to be, and the golden singapore contracts of the past are just that. In the past.
Joyce knows he could get jetstar crew tomorrow to fly the 380 for 150K no worries. They would be lining up.
Have no doubt he would shut down mainline international to rebrand and repaint qantas in years to come if thought that would help.
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“Can someone find me one industry or company where this is taking place during a period of growth?”
QF is a “group” of business’s that range from fixing planes to feeding passengers to frequent flyer programs. Some of these are doing very well, but the business that carts passengers on long haul flights is not doing very well at all. Its performance can hardly be described as “a period of growth”.
Labor costs and labor inefficiencies in long haul are a significant problem that the QF CEO must solve.
“so you bad boys are actually going for a paycut?”
The smartest thing a pilot group with individuals earning high 3 figure salaries can do is offer wage cuts and efficiency gains unless marginalization is what you are seeking.
“BUT DO YOU THINK JOYCE WILL BE TAKING A PAYCUT DURING THIS PERIOD?”
Only if the market/shareholders deem it necessary. But probably not, he is considered to be an effective CEO despite not winning the most popular kid in class award from pilots.
“Cathay are up to D or something.”
Not for HKG based crew. Check your information.
QF is a “group” of business’s that range from fixing planes to feeding passengers to frequent flyer programs. Some of these are doing very well, but the business that carts passengers on long haul flights is not doing very well at all. Its performance can hardly be described as “a period of growth”.
Labor costs and labor inefficiencies in long haul are a significant problem that the QF CEO must solve.
“so you bad boys are actually going for a paycut?”
The smartest thing a pilot group with individuals earning high 3 figure salaries can do is offer wage cuts and efficiency gains unless marginalization is what you are seeking.
“BUT DO YOU THINK JOYCE WILL BE TAKING A PAYCUT DURING THIS PERIOD?”
Only if the market/shareholders deem it necessary. But probably not, he is considered to be an effective CEO despite not winning the most popular kid in class award from pilots.
“Cathay are up to D or something.”
Not for HKG based crew. Check your information.
Reality is that QF international will be the 380 and a handful of other aircraft that will drop into Singapore and feed JQ throughout Asia and Europe.
The B744 will wither on the vine and become a distant memory like the Classic. Commitment has been made on the B787, so unless Boeing completely shelve it QF will not see the B777, the aircraft does not fit into the new business model. The future is out of Singapore with 787/350 aircraft servicing smaller destinations in Europe/Asia.
Dont bother with seniority lists in Australia, it will be Singapore where the career opportunities will be.
The B744 will wither on the vine and become a distant memory like the Classic. Commitment has been made on the B787, so unless Boeing completely shelve it QF will not see the B777, the aircraft does not fit into the new business model. The future is out of Singapore with 787/350 aircraft servicing smaller destinations in Europe/Asia.
Dont bother with seniority lists in Australia, it will be Singapore where the career opportunities will be.
Hey bubble head what doesn't smell funny but more like "sh*T" is the fact you could have joined mainline say 2001, 2002, prior to the impulse takeover, prior to jetstar, prior to 320/330s in orange and still have no chance of a 330 fo spot.
I know others will say to mainline guys, "well go F&CK yourselves." but ultimately this is probably the last opportunity to stop the rot.
The group seniority list isn't a new concept. If you'd cared to consider its points you would have seen that the a 5th year so couldn't out bid the 4 year 11 month fo in sunstate for the position. Because all the current sunstate blokes would have had to have an opportunity to take the spot prior to anyone else, mainline, jetstar etc. Similarly the jetstar fo's have the first crack at command spots there when they came up at jetstar. The big benefit is to new joiners where the opprotunities open up alot more when positions become available within the group.
If you can suggeat another way of stopping the continual creating/ playing off group pilots amoungst each other, well spell it out. Don't waste time with the dribble of the uninformed here.
Perhaps Kaboy is right. Let's just forget about it and I let the missus and family know that singers is fine this time of year. Schooling and other costs I'm not so sure about.
I know others will say to mainline guys, "well go F&CK yourselves." but ultimately this is probably the last opportunity to stop the rot.
The group seniority list isn't a new concept. If you'd cared to consider its points you would have seen that the a 5th year so couldn't out bid the 4 year 11 month fo in sunstate for the position. Because all the current sunstate blokes would have had to have an opportunity to take the spot prior to anyone else, mainline, jetstar etc. Similarly the jetstar fo's have the first crack at command spots there when they came up at jetstar. The big benefit is to new joiners where the opprotunities open up alot more when positions become available within the group.
If you can suggeat another way of stopping the continual creating/ playing off group pilots amoungst each other, well spell it out. Don't waste time with the dribble of the uninformed here.
Perhaps Kaboy is right. Let's just forget about it and I let the missus and family know that singers is fine this time of year. Schooling and other costs I'm not so sure about.
Keg :
x2. Have faith in the negotiating team. When they and the company come up with a negotiated position, we will then vote appropriately. Both sides of the table hold power in certain areas and the package will be viewed as a whole, just like the last one!
I wonder if the term 'headline rate' means anything to most ppruners? Guessing by most of these comments, probably not.
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They have already lost my vote. Based on the key Duty Travel Trade off. Unforgivable.
Whilst I recognise that there is a lot more to it than this - this should never ever be touched - and more to the point the items being traded for are easily worked around by the company.
Whilst I recognise that there is a lot more to it than this - this should never ever be touched - and more to the point the items being traded for are easily worked around by the company.
Nunc est bibendum
ODL, I'm pretty comfortable with what I've seen so far and what I've heard that they're asking for. This 2.5% that ppruners are bagging is a headline rate. That will allow AJ to tell the markets that he got a good deal. Meanwhile, we've got exactly what we want.
Blueloo, I reckon the travel plan is excellent and provides great value for the overwhelming majority of crew. Given how rare P class is these days, and then how rarely crew pax on those a/c, and the ratifying of ST as part of the award, I reckon they've struck a great balance.
Blueloo, I reckon the travel plan is excellent and provides great value for the overwhelming majority of crew. Given how rare P class is these days, and then how rarely crew pax on those a/c, and the ratifying of ST as part of the award, I reckon they've struck a great balance.
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Having worked with your negotiation team I would recommend all members put full faith in the AIPA blokes. Their plan cuts a lot deeper than just a headline 2.5% increase. It will also go a long way to securing your future and the leakage of flying jobs to Asia.
See you on Friday at the Rowers.
See you on Friday at the Rowers.
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“Cathay are up to D or something.”
Not for HKG based crew. Check your information.
Not for HKG based crew. Check your information.
HK Based, I'd call that D! They are currently going though training and will be kicked out of the hotel once checked to line.
'A' has been left to wither on the vine or become 'B', which over time will become C/D.
The seniority list has been decimated they don't stick to seniority yet we still hold it as the Holy Grail
We just put an end to out of seniority freighter commands to get back to a seniority based airline and now look http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...ml#post6230675
Whispering "T" Jet
Ah....integration. It's a beautiful thing.
I was involved in the integration of ASA, MMA and Airlines of NSW after Ansett took them over and in those days we had a very powerful AFAP overseeing the negotiations. None of the subsidiary Companies ever believed at the end of it........to quote Keg
and neither did Ansett mainline pilots. However, it happened because it was always going to happen and (according to AN Managemement)for survival of the collective group,had to happen. As it will with QF.
Good luck chaps !
I was involved in the integration of ASA, MMA and Airlines of NSW after Ansett took them over and in those days we had a very powerful AFAP overseeing the negotiations. None of the subsidiary Companies ever believed at the end of it........to quote Keg
Meanwhile, we've got exactly what we want.
Good luck chaps !
blueloo
*
Seriously?! That's what it comes down to for you? You must pax A LOT! I respect your decision, though it will likely fall in the minority.
In reality, the J of today exceeds the P of yesteryear in many ways. This entitlement has increased in value over the years and now we can use it to get some career progression and job security. If it works (and the rest of the package is acceptable) then I think it is a good trade off.
*
They have already lost my vote. Based on the key Duty Travel Trade off. Unforgivable.
In reality, the J of today exceeds the P of yesteryear in many ways. This entitlement has increased in value over the years and now we can use it to get some career progression and job security. If it works (and the rest of the package is acceptable) then I think it is a good trade off.