Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority
Okay Boeing, I said 'domestic passengers' not 'domestic sectors' 
; I should know; I met some when attending a QF interview (AN management were also on the aircraft, travelling MEL-SYD). To keep the peace I'll edit my post.
And the 'moral support' was greatly appreciated.
; I should know; I met some when attending a QF interview (AN management were also on the aircraft, travelling MEL-SYD). To keep the peace I'll edit my post.And the 'moral support' was greatly appreciated.
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The List?
To put the '89 issue (clearly unrelated) to rest and return to the topic of this thread; would anybody be able to explain how the combined seniority list would work? I believe this to be a critical issue, as it directly relates to the primary thing AIPA is asking for in the new EBA.
If somebody starts at QLink as has been suggested, how do they move say, to the 737? Would they have to become an S/O first? How would QLink get any captains? Surely nobody from Jetstar or Mainline would take a paycut to come back to fly props around... would they? The QLink F/Os would all move on to Jetstar or Mainline.
By no means am I being critical of the concept. Quite the opposite; I'm all for it. However, as it appears to be one of the primary considerations of the EBA negotiation and the title of this thread, I think it deserves some discussion.
One thing a common seniority list does certainly accomplish is unity amongst us all. We WILL all have to take an interest in each others EBAs and conditions, as we are all potential stakeholders and we may find ourselves working elsewhere in the group one day.
If anyone has any information regarding this I would be extremely interested to hear it. PM is fine if necessary.
If somebody starts at QLink as has been suggested, how do they move say, to the 737? Would they have to become an S/O first? How would QLink get any captains? Surely nobody from Jetstar or Mainline would take a paycut to come back to fly props around... would they? The QLink F/Os would all move on to Jetstar or Mainline.
By no means am I being critical of the concept. Quite the opposite; I'm all for it. However, as it appears to be one of the primary considerations of the EBA negotiation and the title of this thread, I think it deserves some discussion.
One thing a common seniority list does certainly accomplish is unity amongst us all. We WILL all have to take an interest in each others EBAs and conditions, as we are all potential stakeholders and we may find ourselves working elsewhere in the group one day.
If anyone has any information regarding this I would be extremely interested to hear it. PM is fine if necessary.
Surely nobody from Jetstar or Mainline would take a paycut to come back to fly props around... would they?
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OFS, I think it would operate as a W list. Say, if you joined Qlink you would have first priority over any Qlink promotional slot subject to seniority in Qlink. Each pilot in each company would have the same priority, subject to seniority, over a slot in that particular company.
To take a slot in any other subsidiary would then depend on datal seniority, after the pilots in that subsidiary have had first crack.
This means that a QF FO could have a JQ Command, but only after the FO's in JQ who were there on the effective date of the W list, have had a shot first.
To take a slot in any other subsidiary would then depend on datal seniority, after the pilots in that subsidiary have had first crack.
This means that a QF FO could have a JQ Command, but only after the FO's in JQ who were there on the effective date of the W list, have had a shot first.
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Krem: Thanks mate. I follow you in most of what you're saying here.
BUT:
By this token, opportunities to transfer between codes would be few and far between. Promotions are almost always going to be able to be filled internally. Say if 20 JQ commands come up and JQ guys get first dibs, they will always be able to fill these spots internally. 20 JQ F/Os will unquestionably put their hands up, right? Therefore Mainline/QLink guys miss out.
If QF need 30 737 F/Os, there will always be 30 QF S/Os willing to take the gig, therefore no hope for QLink or JQ F/Os.
If internal promotions are always considered first (and outside of "Group" seniority), then it would be rare not to fill promotions internally wouldn't it?
I may have missed something though!
BUT:
To take a slot in any other subsidiary would then depend on datal seniority, after the pilots in that subsidiary have had first crack.
If QF need 30 737 F/Os, there will always be 30 QF S/Os willing to take the gig, therefore no hope for QLink or JQ F/Os.
If internal promotions are always considered first (and outside of "Group" seniority), then it would be rare not to fill promotions internally wouldn't it?
I may have missed something though!
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OFS, initially yes, you are correct. But it works both ways in limiting the access that pilots from other subsidiaries have to slots that a pilot rightfully has in their own company.
After a few years the situation irons itself out. The Qantas Y list initially protected members of the different hauls from "poaching" of their slots by pilots on the other haul. Now, most QF pilots have joined below the Y, and if their seniority is sufficient, they can bid for a slot in either long or short haul without fear that someone in the other haul has priority.
Seniority is the only criteria in most cases now. I believe all A list pilots have seniority for a 767 command now if they wanted one and there is one available.
After a few years the situation irons itself out. The Qantas Y list initially protected members of the different hauls from "poaching" of their slots by pilots on the other haul. Now, most QF pilots have joined below the Y, and if their seniority is sufficient, they can bid for a slot in either long or short haul without fear that someone in the other haul has priority.
Seniority is the only criteria in most cases now. I believe all A list pilots have seniority for a 767 command now if they wanted one and there is one available.
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QF pilots gave us all the support they could. And any foreign pilot who thought a lift on A QF flight deck was a cert. soon found out it was not. We were grateful for their support. That was 20 years ago, and lessons learnt. Calm fella's calm. Today is today, careful, careful. Slowly, slowly.
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Qantas~Grand Plan~Bankruptcy
Pilots take protected industrial action.Eventually management proclaims business unviable and is put into administration.Then reborn as a new company Want your job back ?Reapply but on new lower wages and conditions
Happened in the States
Can it happen here?
Happened in the States
Can it happen here?
Last edited by Captain.Que; 13th Feb 2011 at 00:23. Reason: semantic clarification
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Captain.Que, this exact scenario has been rattling around in my brain for a while. The reason, quite simple, the Qantas Sale Act. With the apparent blind eye being turned to the sale act/j* international operation, this is obviously the game plan.
Although counter-intuitive, I think we have seen enough to say with a reasonable degree of confidence this is the end game. But as always, a scapegoat was needed, it is now obvious who is being lined up to deal the death blow, and carry the blame. Let the record show that management have held customers, staff & shareholders in contempt for the last 10 years. Management have made every effort to destroy the international operation. Deliberately starving it of capital, waging war against the staff & hobbling the premium product with old aircraft, & uncompetitive fares. It has destroyed it to justify its destruction.
Counter-intuitive? Why would they destroy the "Qantas brand". Well, thats the clever bit, destroy the "Qantas International brand", but domestically it will survive. Qantas is an iconic brand within Australia, whilst recognizable internationally, it not of same commercial benefit.
So, j* will be the international vehicle, free to offshore, engaging in regulatory arbitrage that will allow it to avoid any serious scrutiny. It will operate as a conglomerate of franchised business. It will be free of the Qantas Sale Act, engaging in ownership arrangements that Qantas International could not.
Qantas domestic & Qlink will continue to operate, as a major profit centres, j* international will go upmarket, however the B787 delays have obviously caused a major timing issue with the process. I suspect management wanted to wait until the deliveries started prior to initiation of the "final solution".
Management, have killed Qantas, in spite of the efforts of the staff to save it. RIP big fella.
Although counter-intuitive, I think we have seen enough to say with a reasonable degree of confidence this is the end game. But as always, a scapegoat was needed, it is now obvious who is being lined up to deal the death blow, and carry the blame. Let the record show that management have held customers, staff & shareholders in contempt for the last 10 years. Management have made every effort to destroy the international operation. Deliberately starving it of capital, waging war against the staff & hobbling the premium product with old aircraft, & uncompetitive fares. It has destroyed it to justify its destruction.
Counter-intuitive? Why would they destroy the "Qantas brand". Well, thats the clever bit, destroy the "Qantas International brand", but domestically it will survive. Qantas is an iconic brand within Australia, whilst recognizable internationally, it not of same commercial benefit.
So, j* will be the international vehicle, free to offshore, engaging in regulatory arbitrage that will allow it to avoid any serious scrutiny. It will operate as a conglomerate of franchised business. It will be free of the Qantas Sale Act, engaging in ownership arrangements that Qantas International could not.
Qantas domestic & Qlink will continue to operate, as a major profit centres, j* international will go upmarket, however the B787 delays have obviously caused a major timing issue with the process. I suspect management wanted to wait until the deliveries started prior to initiation of the "final solution".
Management, have killed Qantas, in spite of the efforts of the staff to save it. RIP big fella.
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Why don't the union just ask for salary increases at CPI and nothing more. Make it cost neutral to the company. If the only other thing AIPA really ask for is job security and progression (combined seniority list & subsidiary EBA protection), there should be no argument by the company that this is anything sinister on the part of the pilots.
I mean, how pathetic would a company look if they were to say "Sorry ladies and gentlemen of Australia, but the only reason we went out of business was because the pilots wanted to keep their jobs...". Every man and his dog would plainly see that this was another mismanaged Aussie icon, killed off by corporate greed.
I mean, how pathetic would a company look if they were to say "Sorry ladies and gentlemen of Australia, but the only reason we went out of business was because the pilots wanted to keep their jobs...". Every man and his dog would plainly see that this was another mismanaged Aussie icon, killed off by corporate greed.
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OhForSure, AIPA could sit there and ask for nothing. Management will simply work around this through threatening demotions & redundancies (they have already floated the balloon). Management need to provoke a dispute, and know full well that the destruction of career progression is sufficient leverage, if applied over an extended period of time. As I said, timing is the problem for the company now as they don't have replacement aircraft (B787) ready. I believe this turn of events (PIA) has caught them off-guard.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Much as I like the airline QANTAS doesn't help itself at times. My wife takes a trip to SIN, from MEL, for a few days approx. once a year, previously too easy, QF9 and QF10, fare in the region of $1000.00.
Tried last year out bound they wanted $845.00, OK,we ticked that but they said the return flight was not possible with our selected outbound! WTF I asked myself. We tried several combinations and it all boiled down to them wanting us to do one sector on Jetstar, either via SYD or ADL and in one case a five hour wait on the ground in Darwin! A 13 hour flight!!!
Went to the Singapore web site, three direct non-stop flights a day, take your pick, $947.00 return, all done in five minutes, tickets printed, the lot, seats selected too.
It is QF Commercial and Marketing that need to get their act together, they have lost our business and this year it is 2 x Business class to LHR and return.
Tried last year out bound they wanted $845.00, OK,we ticked that but they said the return flight was not possible with our selected outbound! WTF I asked myself. We tried several combinations and it all boiled down to them wanting us to do one sector on Jetstar, either via SYD or ADL and in one case a five hour wait on the ground in Darwin! A 13 hour flight!!!
Went to the Singapore web site, three direct non-stop flights a day, take your pick, $947.00 return, all done in five minutes, tickets printed, the lot, seats selected too.
It is QF Commercial and Marketing that need to get their act together, they have lost our business and this year it is 2 x Business class to LHR and return.
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KKR and Clifford
KKR is a private equity company.
Guess who is an advisor.
Leigh Clifford
Richard Leigh Clifford, AO has been a Senior Adviser of Australia operations at Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. since January 2009.
Mr. Clifford served as the Chief Executive Officer of Rio Tinto PLC and Rio Tinto Ltd. from 2000 to May 1, 2007.
A Mining Engineer, He has held various roles in The Rio Tinto Group's coal and metalliferous operations since joining in 1970, including Managing Director of Rio Tinto Limited and Chief Executive of the Energy group. He also served ... as Chief Executive Officer of Rio Tinto Group. from 2000 to May 2007.
Mr. Clifford served as a Marketing Manager at Kembla Coal & Coke Pty. Limited. Mr. Clifford has extensive experience of managing a business that operates in a number of global regions.
He has been Chairman of the Board of Qantas Airways Limited since November 14, 2007. Mr. Clifford serves as the Chairman of the Board at International Council on Mining and Metals. Mr. Clifford has been a Director of Qantas Airways Limited since August 9, 2007. He served as a Director of Barclays Bank PLC and its holding Barclays PLC from October 1, 2004 to September 30, 2010. He serves as a Director at Murdoch Childrens Research Institute. Mr. Clifford served as an Executive Director of Rio Tinto PLC from 1994 to 2007 and served as a Director of Rio Tinto Limited from 1995 to 2007. He served as a Director of Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold Inc. from 2000 to May 2004 and previously served as its Director from September 1995 to August 1997. He served as Chairman of the Coal Industry Advisory Board of the International Energy Agency from 1998 to 2000. He was appointed to the Bechtel Board of Counsellors in May 2007. Mr. Clifford holds Bachelor of Engineering from the University of Melbourne as a Mining Engineer and gained a Master of Engineering Science from the University of Melbourne.
Guess who is an advisor.
Leigh Clifford
Richard Leigh Clifford, AO has been a Senior Adviser of Australia operations at Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. since January 2009.
Mr. Clifford served as the Chief Executive Officer of Rio Tinto PLC and Rio Tinto Ltd. from 2000 to May 1, 2007.
A Mining Engineer, He has held various roles in The Rio Tinto Group's coal and metalliferous operations since joining in 1970, including Managing Director of Rio Tinto Limited and Chief Executive of the Energy group. He also served ... as Chief Executive Officer of Rio Tinto Group. from 2000 to May 2007.
Mr. Clifford served as a Marketing Manager at Kembla Coal & Coke Pty. Limited. Mr. Clifford has extensive experience of managing a business that operates in a number of global regions.
He has been Chairman of the Board of Qantas Airways Limited since November 14, 2007. Mr. Clifford serves as the Chairman of the Board at International Council on Mining and Metals. Mr. Clifford has been a Director of Qantas Airways Limited since August 9, 2007. He served as a Director of Barclays Bank PLC and its holding Barclays PLC from October 1, 2004 to September 30, 2010. He serves as a Director at Murdoch Childrens Research Institute. Mr. Clifford served as an Executive Director of Rio Tinto PLC from 1994 to 2007 and served as a Director of Rio Tinto Limited from 1995 to 2007. He served as a Director of Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold Inc. from 2000 to May 2004 and previously served as its Director from September 1995 to August 1997. He served as Chairman of the Coal Industry Advisory Board of the International Energy Agency from 1998 to 2000. He was appointed to the Bechtel Board of Counsellors in May 2007. Mr. Clifford holds Bachelor of Engineering from the University of Melbourne as a Mining Engineer and gained a Master of Engineering Science from the University of Melbourne.
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Parabellum, I have to agree and have had the same issue getting to London and return.
SIA has better schedules (lunchtime departures from Singas and evening arrivals into LHR), free stopovers in Singas, seats allocated online (great since we need the bassinet for an infant) and priced to beat QF. Nice, cool and quiet A330s, 2-4-2 seating (no weird/drunk stranger in the third seat) and 400 channels of IFE.
No wonder QF's international market share is slipping.
SIA has better schedules (lunchtime departures from Singas and evening arrivals into LHR), free stopovers in Singas, seats allocated online (great since we need the bassinet for an infant) and priced to beat QF. Nice, cool and quiet A330s, 2-4-2 seating (no weird/drunk stranger in the third seat) and 400 channels of IFE.
No wonder QF's international market share is slipping.
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The Union are asking for less than CPI!
All the rest of the company produced media crap is just that...spin.
AIPA has even offered a 10% pay cut to ensure Qantas aircraft are crewed by Qantas mainline pilots.
Aipa are not asking for Jetstar to be crewed by Qantas pilots as the media are reporting.
Qantas is refusing to ensure we are not sidelined by cheap foreign labour even with the offer of a pay cut.
All the rest of the company produced media crap is just that...spin.
AIPA has even offered a 10% pay cut to ensure Qantas aircraft are crewed by Qantas mainline pilots.
Aipa are not asking for Jetstar to be crewed by Qantas pilots as the media are reporting.
Qantas is refusing to ensure we are not sidelined by cheap foreign labour even with the offer of a pay cut.
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Why don't the union just ask for salary increases at CPI and nothing more.
Furthermore, there is not one airline CEO or politician whose wage has gone up at the CPI index or less, they are priveledged to receive rises in excess of 20-50% on average as a minimun. I am starting to think the only way to get any action happenning in this country at any level is do what they have done Egypt....
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By NO means am I suggesting that CPI increases are all that pilots are worth. Couldn't be further from the truth. I'm talking about winning the PR battle, which is how industrial wars are won and lost these days.
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I am starting to think the only way to get any action happenning in this
country at any level is do what they have done Egypt....
Yes it is sad that this is the only way the little guy can get things done.
Stick together and trust the union to co-ordinate proceedings.
Like someone nicely pointed out during the lames dispute,
if you don't quite have the stomach for it,
wait in the car till daddy finishes what he needs to do.
country at any level is do what they have done Egypt....
Yes it is sad that this is the only way the little guy can get things done.
Stick together and trust the union to co-ordinate proceedings.
Like someone nicely pointed out during the lames dispute,
if you don't quite have the stomach for it,
wait in the car till daddy finishes what he needs to do.