Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority
Just imagine that a 5years SO of mainline can outbid a 4 years 11months FO in sunstate who has served their time in the dash for a command spot.
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This entitlement has increased in value over the years and now we can use it to get some career progression and job security.
Fairly sure the trade is for improved staff travel benefits and confirmed tickets for commuters (amongst other benefits), not "P class" vs career progression on its own.
Certainly career progression is part of the EBA and as part of the whole EBA it does need to be considered.
However...... like the P class trade off....career progression (and the improved staff travel) CANNOT be written and set in stone. So - as we seem to do - we trade off a benefit - hoping that in good faith the company will uphold its end of the deal, and surprise surprise (Well Not really.. just to a few gullible suckers) we lose the benefit and also what we have traded it in for.
Usually its just WIN WIN for the company and execs.
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GUYS!
This article is based on information that is fictitious, imaginary, unreal and not genuine!!!! Otherwise known as BULL****! The source is not credible in this instance and is probably pushing another agenda. . . . . . . .
There will be much more misinformation to come. Stay frosty
This article is based on information that is fictitious, imaginary, unreal and not genuine!!!! Otherwise known as BULL****! The source is not credible in this instance and is probably pushing another agenda. . . . . . . .
There will be much more misinformation to come. Stay frosty
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"HK Based, I'd call that D"
You can call it a bushell of spuds if you like.
Foreign pilots employed direct entry into CX are STILL on B scale and there is no plan to alter this.
Argument over.
You can call it a bushell of spuds if you like.
Foreign pilots employed direct entry into CX are STILL on B scale and there is no plan to alter this.
Argument over.
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On the topic of Cathay..
If you have a spare minute to kill this makes for an interesting read (From Fragrant Harbour Wannabees forum):
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...ck-cathay.html
Gives the picture on the B or C scales. I'm not sure how true but its an interesting one.
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...ck-cathay.html
Why I knocked back Cathay
Over the last few weeks I have been harrassed by my mates as to why I turned my back on working for what is suspposed to be one of the worlds best airlines, so thought I would share my experience to anybody interested so that perhaps any other starry-eyed low-time pilots such as myself can avoid the Cathay trap.
Was I stupid? arrogant? drunk? did I fail?? No on all counts and let me set the record straight as to why.
After a series of interviews, medicals etc and all that good stuff, I was given the nod to join the Cathay cadet program. This involves spending over a year in Adelaide at a private flying college sponsored by Cathay, after which I would have a commerical license signed off for Hong Kong, and would then go straight into the (back)seat of a heavy jet. Sounds too good to be true right?, well wait theres more.
Thankfully I have a few friends in Cathay, both First Officers and very senior Captains (ex management in fact), all level headed blokes with no axe to grind, and the overriding impression I received from them, and from a few other experienced guys in other airlines (Emirates, ANA, VA), whom I spoke in the lead up to this decision was basically this: dont do it, but if you do, make sure you have a very good sense of humor.
Cathay fly to some great destinations, but as it was pointed out, I would have zero chance of enjoying them, ever, because the time spent at destination is less than 24 hours, usually 18 hours, and apparently after a flight, you have to sleep straight away because you usually arrive after not having slept all night, and then you have to get presleep for the following nights flight. All the crew go straight to bed (called "slam-clickers"!), and even if you wanted to have a drink with one of the flight attendants (which as a single guy I always thought was part of the job description in any airline!), well the cabin crew will just stay in their rooms because they have to save their overnight allowances to compensate for their low salary. And besides apparently, most of them are quite difficult to communicate with.
So essentially you turn up to work 70 minutes before a flight, then go straight to the aircraft where after takeoff you usually go to sleep for the first half of the flight, and "work" for the second half of the flight.
Work basically involves checking off flight times on a fight plan, doing fuel checks, following the route on maps, and talking to ATC. This is not hands on flying, but "flight management".
As a second officer, you arent allowed to takeoff or land. So basically you are locked in the flight deck or the bunk, for 12-16hours, and then you spend an hour on a bus to a 3 star hotel in the middle of nowhere, where you sleep and cant go out because the hotel is usually in an industrial or outskirts area, and then you do it all in reverse again back to Hong Kong.
It will then take you a few days to get over your jet lag, which apparently is not very good for your long term health. And speaking of health, if the job doesnt kill you then the pollution will apparently. The government even has official "stay indoors" days! because it can get quite thick.
Rinse, repeat, for four years, the average time spent as a second officer.
And just in case you were thinking of leaving Cathay to fly elsewhere, the rating Cathay give is a "P2X" which is not a full conversion and is Hong Kong specific, so other airlines will not accept your Airbus or Boeing qualifications.
Then when you finally go right hand seat as First Officer, it only lasts 2 years maximum as you will then become a "Relief Pilot" which is another term they invented to save costs to save having 2 captains on a flight. What this means is that you will spend your time doing the same job as.. guess what..? Yes a Second Officer again! So great, you do relief pilot work for probably 5 to 10 years until your command. And they have just extended the retirement age, so you will have to wait even longer for upgrade to Captain.
And even better, when you are a first officer and a Captain, you will be working your ring off. The working hours are apaprently ****e. I personally dont mind working hard but these guys say that their efforts are beyond resonable definitions. They told me about a loophole the compnay uses called "split duty" where you fly to a destination at night, spend 40 minutes on a bus to a crappy hotel where you sleep for around 5 hours, then bus back to the airport and fly back to Hong Kong, which I guess would be ok once in awhile but they do it all the time. Sounds like the Hong Kong regulator turns a bit of a blind eye over there which is not very reassuring.
And then every year Cathay will introduce a new route or destination where they will make guys fly really hard, wait until the regulator tells them to use more pilots on the route or rest more, which they will do for a short time, but then they will go back to the previous roster to see how long they can try it on for. Which sounded to me like some backyard GA outfits in Oz you read about.
So surely all this sounds a little backward as far as employee relations go I asked them? "Exactly" was the response, which is why Cathay is always in court. They recently hired first officers directly over second officers who were ready for upgrade, which in my book sounds a bit dissapointing. The second officers actually took the comany to court over it. And the cabin crew are always on the brink of striking too.
Oh and if you complain? Well they mark your comments in your file, then basically tell you to leave and work elsewhere.. Hmmm.
So what about the cool aircraft you guys fly? Well they say that after a few years it doesnt really matter if its a 380 or a 180, the flying becomes just a job, which I guess I can understand.
So whats it really like being a 2nd officer in Cathay? I enthusiastically asked my potentially fellow aviation brethren, looking for some kind of bone here..well not good news here either Im afraid. The unofficial line is that you are treated with a subtle mix of indifference and resentment, and if you join as a cadet you are basically considered as incompetent also, and a poor substitute for the higher paid Captain who would otherwise be sitting there were it not for managements constant drive to keep cutting costs. Plenty of jokes about second officers being known as "sandwich eaters", because thats all they do. Sounds pretty depressing to me. They make you do a simulator every 2 months (other pilots only do simulator exercises every 6 months).
And eventually, and I do mean eventually, in around 15 years, when you come up for command, there is a very large failure rate amongst cadets. Basically this is they say because the cadets dont have any real aviation experience to fall back on. And once you fail a command upgrade twice, then they either sack you or keep you as a first officer for ever. This deal keeps on getting worse by the minute!
Finally, the M question. Money.
So great, now Im back in Hong Kong and its time to live it up right? After all Ive made it to the top and can kick back a little in my huge pad and German car? Hong Kong with its low tax and company subsidised housing sounds like a pretty sweet deal? Well err not quite.
I was in for a shock - take home buying power for a First Officer is below Jetstar! Hard to believe but true. Food, gas, and most importantly beer, and well even more importantly a place to live, cost an absolute fortune. With a newly minted salary, I did some checking because I didnt believe what the guys were saying, and even if I spend two thirds of my take-home dollars, I would still be living in a classic highrise smaller than the size of my garage, complete with washing hanging out the windows (plenty of property websites to check for yourself). And thats just to rent, because to own a house up there now is apaprently impossible because of the rising prices.
Previously the pilots received a housing subsidy, but now management has introduced a "C" scale package which is just basic salary (there were A and B scale packages before, each better than the last).
And if you try and send money home back to Australia, what you can buy with your salary is pretty minimal. It would take me 20 years to save for a small house in Doncaster, a fairly average Aussie suburb, which is where my family is.
And dont fall into the trap that the comany will keep wages to match inflation as they wont.
So just to reconvince myself that this is the best decision I never made, just let me recap:
salary - less than any Australian airline..crap
accommodation - living in an apartment with refugee camp dimensions?..crap
lifestyle - not being able to go jogging because of the pollution, and having any family exposed to that kind of smog?..crap
fellow pilots - sorry boys, nothing personal but not exactly a cosy family
cabin crew - nothing on a Virgin girl! (call me shallow)
career prospects - this airline seems to always slot in other pilots ahead of others on the list..the rating then is crap
flying - playing seat warmer for 4 years..crap
how hard I have to work...I believe in an honest days pay for an honest days work, but from what I hear its like slave labour.
Bottom line..40 years of that? Tell them theyre dreaming!
Hope this little synopsis doesnt appear too negative, after all I did a lot of research and tried to be objective the whole way through, after all I even committed to the entire interview process, but frankly it just plainly doesnt stack up, that to leave Australia to work for those kind of people would mean that there would have to be something wromg with me.
I encourage anybody else out there considering Cathay to really do their homework too and make up their own mind - dont take it from me.But I would be suprised if you come to any other conclusion. I was suprised at how appealing the lcoal creer options really are, and that the grass was not greener. It seems that the good old days at Cathay are exactly that.
Also BTW the decision to say no to Cathay was perhaps a little easier than just saying no, as I was not the only one, as a few applicants I have kept in touch with have done the same - apologies if I sounded like the first!.
I personally think its better to get some solid command and multi hours before I go for an airline, if only for the self reassurance of having some experience for my later command days. So right now Im taking a solid GA path instead with some multi turboprop hours on the horizon, and then in a year or two will look at Virgin or Jetstar, or one of the nearby airlines (Brunei etc).
But have still got the name on the file for Qantas as a backup just in case
Over the last few weeks I have been harrassed by my mates as to why I turned my back on working for what is suspposed to be one of the worlds best airlines, so thought I would share my experience to anybody interested so that perhaps any other starry-eyed low-time pilots such as myself can avoid the Cathay trap.
Was I stupid? arrogant? drunk? did I fail?? No on all counts and let me set the record straight as to why.
After a series of interviews, medicals etc and all that good stuff, I was given the nod to join the Cathay cadet program. This involves spending over a year in Adelaide at a private flying college sponsored by Cathay, after which I would have a commerical license signed off for Hong Kong, and would then go straight into the (back)seat of a heavy jet. Sounds too good to be true right?, well wait theres more.
Thankfully I have a few friends in Cathay, both First Officers and very senior Captains (ex management in fact), all level headed blokes with no axe to grind, and the overriding impression I received from them, and from a few other experienced guys in other airlines (Emirates, ANA, VA), whom I spoke in the lead up to this decision was basically this: dont do it, but if you do, make sure you have a very good sense of humor.
Cathay fly to some great destinations, but as it was pointed out, I would have zero chance of enjoying them, ever, because the time spent at destination is less than 24 hours, usually 18 hours, and apparently after a flight, you have to sleep straight away because you usually arrive after not having slept all night, and then you have to get presleep for the following nights flight. All the crew go straight to bed (called "slam-clickers"!), and even if you wanted to have a drink with one of the flight attendants (which as a single guy I always thought was part of the job description in any airline!), well the cabin crew will just stay in their rooms because they have to save their overnight allowances to compensate for their low salary. And besides apparently, most of them are quite difficult to communicate with.
So essentially you turn up to work 70 minutes before a flight, then go straight to the aircraft where after takeoff you usually go to sleep for the first half of the flight, and "work" for the second half of the flight.
Work basically involves checking off flight times on a fight plan, doing fuel checks, following the route on maps, and talking to ATC. This is not hands on flying, but "flight management".
As a second officer, you arent allowed to takeoff or land. So basically you are locked in the flight deck or the bunk, for 12-16hours, and then you spend an hour on a bus to a 3 star hotel in the middle of nowhere, where you sleep and cant go out because the hotel is usually in an industrial or outskirts area, and then you do it all in reverse again back to Hong Kong.
It will then take you a few days to get over your jet lag, which apparently is not very good for your long term health. And speaking of health, if the job doesnt kill you then the pollution will apparently. The government even has official "stay indoors" days! because it can get quite thick.
Rinse, repeat, for four years, the average time spent as a second officer.
And just in case you were thinking of leaving Cathay to fly elsewhere, the rating Cathay give is a "P2X" which is not a full conversion and is Hong Kong specific, so other airlines will not accept your Airbus or Boeing qualifications.
Then when you finally go right hand seat as First Officer, it only lasts 2 years maximum as you will then become a "Relief Pilot" which is another term they invented to save costs to save having 2 captains on a flight. What this means is that you will spend your time doing the same job as.. guess what..? Yes a Second Officer again! So great, you do relief pilot work for probably 5 to 10 years until your command. And they have just extended the retirement age, so you will have to wait even longer for upgrade to Captain.
And even better, when you are a first officer and a Captain, you will be working your ring off. The working hours are apaprently ****e. I personally dont mind working hard but these guys say that their efforts are beyond resonable definitions. They told me about a loophole the compnay uses called "split duty" where you fly to a destination at night, spend 40 minutes on a bus to a crappy hotel where you sleep for around 5 hours, then bus back to the airport and fly back to Hong Kong, which I guess would be ok once in awhile but they do it all the time. Sounds like the Hong Kong regulator turns a bit of a blind eye over there which is not very reassuring.
And then every year Cathay will introduce a new route or destination where they will make guys fly really hard, wait until the regulator tells them to use more pilots on the route or rest more, which they will do for a short time, but then they will go back to the previous roster to see how long they can try it on for. Which sounded to me like some backyard GA outfits in Oz you read about.
So surely all this sounds a little backward as far as employee relations go I asked them? "Exactly" was the response, which is why Cathay is always in court. They recently hired first officers directly over second officers who were ready for upgrade, which in my book sounds a bit dissapointing. The second officers actually took the comany to court over it. And the cabin crew are always on the brink of striking too.
Oh and if you complain? Well they mark your comments in your file, then basically tell you to leave and work elsewhere.. Hmmm.
So what about the cool aircraft you guys fly? Well they say that after a few years it doesnt really matter if its a 380 or a 180, the flying becomes just a job, which I guess I can understand.
So whats it really like being a 2nd officer in Cathay? I enthusiastically asked my potentially fellow aviation brethren, looking for some kind of bone here..well not good news here either Im afraid. The unofficial line is that you are treated with a subtle mix of indifference and resentment, and if you join as a cadet you are basically considered as incompetent also, and a poor substitute for the higher paid Captain who would otherwise be sitting there were it not for managements constant drive to keep cutting costs. Plenty of jokes about second officers being known as "sandwich eaters", because thats all they do. Sounds pretty depressing to me. They make you do a simulator every 2 months (other pilots only do simulator exercises every 6 months).
And eventually, and I do mean eventually, in around 15 years, when you come up for command, there is a very large failure rate amongst cadets. Basically this is they say because the cadets dont have any real aviation experience to fall back on. And once you fail a command upgrade twice, then they either sack you or keep you as a first officer for ever. This deal keeps on getting worse by the minute!
Finally, the M question. Money.
So great, now Im back in Hong Kong and its time to live it up right? After all Ive made it to the top and can kick back a little in my huge pad and German car? Hong Kong with its low tax and company subsidised housing sounds like a pretty sweet deal? Well err not quite.
I was in for a shock - take home buying power for a First Officer is below Jetstar! Hard to believe but true. Food, gas, and most importantly beer, and well even more importantly a place to live, cost an absolute fortune. With a newly minted salary, I did some checking because I didnt believe what the guys were saying, and even if I spend two thirds of my take-home dollars, I would still be living in a classic highrise smaller than the size of my garage, complete with washing hanging out the windows (plenty of property websites to check for yourself). And thats just to rent, because to own a house up there now is apaprently impossible because of the rising prices.
Previously the pilots received a housing subsidy, but now management has introduced a "C" scale package which is just basic salary (there were A and B scale packages before, each better than the last).
And if you try and send money home back to Australia, what you can buy with your salary is pretty minimal. It would take me 20 years to save for a small house in Doncaster, a fairly average Aussie suburb, which is where my family is.
And dont fall into the trap that the comany will keep wages to match inflation as they wont.
So just to reconvince myself that this is the best decision I never made, just let me recap:
salary - less than any Australian airline..crap
accommodation - living in an apartment with refugee camp dimensions?..crap
lifestyle - not being able to go jogging because of the pollution, and having any family exposed to that kind of smog?..crap
fellow pilots - sorry boys, nothing personal but not exactly a cosy family
cabin crew - nothing on a Virgin girl! (call me shallow)
career prospects - this airline seems to always slot in other pilots ahead of others on the list..the rating then is crap
flying - playing seat warmer for 4 years..crap
how hard I have to work...I believe in an honest days pay for an honest days work, but from what I hear its like slave labour.
Bottom line..40 years of that? Tell them theyre dreaming!
Hope this little synopsis doesnt appear too negative, after all I did a lot of research and tried to be objective the whole way through, after all I even committed to the entire interview process, but frankly it just plainly doesnt stack up, that to leave Australia to work for those kind of people would mean that there would have to be something wromg with me.
I encourage anybody else out there considering Cathay to really do their homework too and make up their own mind - dont take it from me.But I would be suprised if you come to any other conclusion. I was suprised at how appealing the lcoal creer options really are, and that the grass was not greener. It seems that the good old days at Cathay are exactly that.
Also BTW the decision to say no to Cathay was perhaps a little easier than just saying no, as I was not the only one, as a few applicants I have kept in touch with have done the same - apologies if I sounded like the first!.
I personally think its better to get some solid command and multi hours before I go for an airline, if only for the self reassurance of having some experience for my later command days. So right now Im taking a solid GA path instead with some multi turboprop hours on the horizon, and then in a year or two will look at Virgin or Jetstar, or one of the nearby airlines (Brunei etc).
But have still got the name on the file for Qantas as a backup just in case
Gives the picture on the B or C scales. I'm not sure how true but its an interesting one.
The author of the above post has an agenda.
The majority of his reasoning can be applied to most long haul airlines - they are not CX specific.
"....and then in a year or two will look at Virgin or Jetstar"
How times have changed.
The majority of his reasoning can be applied to most long haul airlines - they are not CX specific.
"....and then in a year or two will look at Virgin or Jetstar"
How times have changed.
Nunc est bibendum
I suspect that 'anothernewbie' is going to find it very difficult to find ANY flying job that meets their very strict criteria for maximum money, minimum time at work, short time to command, lots of 'hands on', etc. 
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Thread drift,
Foreign pilots employed direct entry into CX are STILL on B scale and there is no plan to alter this.
Argument over.
I don't think so, please tell me the last foreign pilot who was employed with housing? Fact is all expats hired in the last year don't get housing, even the instuctor pilots that were promised housing have had it withdrawn.
Being hired on B scale without housing is not B scale! If you want to call it B scale go ahead why don't you call it A scale
Foreign pilots employed direct entry into CX are STILL on B scale and there is no plan to alter this.
Argument over.
Being hired on B scale without housing is not B scale! If you want to call it B scale go ahead why don't you call it A scale
That reads like probably a pretty good assessment of the facts of the situation to me.
None of that is what outsiders or potentials ever get to hear from the companies involved. Hearing it from the insiders who have been thru it and /or still work there is the best info you can get.
I would have made the same decision even if offered a direct entry SO slot given those facts.
None of that is what outsiders or potentials ever get to hear from the companies involved. Hearing it from the insiders who have been thru it and /or still work there is the best info you can get.
I would have made the same decision even if offered a direct entry SO slot given those facts.
I wouldn't get a warm fuzzy feeling or have that group hug about combined seniority list's just yet.
Go back to the mid 1980's when airline companies big and small were bought and sold by the likes of Ables etc, and watch the fighting over combining or intergrating seniority list's. Some guys in East-West, Skywest, did very well compared to those in the Ansett system.
Worth having a read of the book about the history of the AFAP, and trying to get the Dash-8 guys into Qantas, and the reason for being knockbacked!
Perhaps some of the Qantas Pacifc Barons may yearn for the simple life of captaining a Dash8 around rural NSW, to avoid jet lag a nd soend more quality time with the family?
Go back to the mid 1980's when airline companies big and small were bought and sold by the likes of Ables etc, and watch the fighting over combining or intergrating seniority list's. Some guys in East-West, Skywest, did very well compared to those in the Ansett system.
Worth having a read of the book about the history of the AFAP, and trying to get the Dash-8 guys into Qantas, and the reason for being knockbacked!
Perhaps some of the Qantas Pacifc Barons may yearn for the simple life of captaining a Dash8 around rural NSW, to avoid jet lag a nd soend more quality time with the family?
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Joyce Rejects Job Security
Senior Qantas management including Mr Alan Joyce, Mr Lyell Strambi, Capt Peter Wilson and Mr John Farrow (from Oldmeadow Consulting) today delivered the message that Qantas is not prepared to work with pilots to provide written job security provisions in return for improved flexibility and productivity.
AIPA provided management with a list of claims (CLICK HERE) signalled at the start of negotiations over six months ago, aimed at providing members with an avenue to Secure Our Flying under reasonable terms and conditions. These claims identify areas of work traditionally considered by both parties to be “Qantas” work and additionally set out methods for dealing with the distribution of that work.
How did it get to this?
After witnessing the demise of the “mainline” business through mismanagement under the stewardship of many different CEOs and Boards, AIPA members have indicated through surveys and direct discussions that no deal is to be done without formal written agreements in place regarding the critical areas of job security and career progression.
Unfortunately this message has failed to get through to senior management and a loud and united voice is now required from all pilots.
The degradation of mainline has, as we all know, not stopped at the first subsidiary. Jetstar is now being undercut and off-shored at every opportunity, with the imminent formation of more off-shore bases proudly announced by Mr Joyce at recent Company roadshows. Additionally, QantasLink is under threat through the acquisition of new “fly-in, fly-out operations” (read: not operations that current pilots are ever likely to participate in!).
If mainline pilots thought they may somehow be immune to this - then think again!! The sham Jetconnect operations have seriously reduced members’ career opportunities and there are no guarantees from management that will restrict the rapid expansion of the off-shoring of mainline operations. In fact, management has confirmed that "all options will be considered".
After the years of neglect and asset stripping of mainline our members have endured, we not only have to give up our entitlements, but also our jobs to boot. Of course, it is the employees’ fault… and the engineers, cabin crew, baggage handlers, airport staff, administration staff and pilots that will mainly have to pay for it.
Unfortunately Qantas pilots and AIPA members, as custodians of our iconic airline, do not have long to turn this around.
Redundancies are imminent with the continual threat that a surplus of 80 to 90 pilots exists. Some categories will shortly run out of leave and with that will come a reduction in numbers and the prospect of even more redundancies. We do of course have some categories operating at comfortable margins above minimum (if not at maximum) however, management does not see fit to promote in order to avoid further degradation. Rather, management will continue with running down entitlements before showing you the door.
In summary, on instructions from our members, the focus of this EA negotiation is not remuneration but rather to secure a written agreement which provides job security. Qantas was advised of AIPA’s move away from remuneration based outcomes and our desire to consider contract flexibility in order to achieve job security and career progression provisions.
Management’s rejection of this position has led us to the Off Duty Pilot Meetings to be held as follows:
Sydney
Friday, 11 February 2011
St George Rowing Club
1 Levey Street, Wolli Creek NSW
11:00 am
Melbourne
Monday, 14 February 2011
Melrose Melbourne Conference and Reception Centre
Corner Melrose and Carrick Drives, Tullamarine VIC
11:00 am
AIPA has been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, "no matter how low you go, they will always look for someone cheaper".
With this in mind, at these meetings AIPA will confirm the direction from its members in regards to action to be taken. It is expected a discussion on Protected Industrial Action will take place and AIPA legal staff, the EA Negotiating Team and members of the COM and Executive will be present to answer questions. It is imperative that all members attend and wear your Secure Our Flying lanyards.
REMEMBER, IT’S YOUR FUTURE.
AIPA provided management with a list of claims (CLICK HERE) signalled at the start of negotiations over six months ago, aimed at providing members with an avenue to Secure Our Flying under reasonable terms and conditions. These claims identify areas of work traditionally considered by both parties to be “Qantas” work and additionally set out methods for dealing with the distribution of that work.
How did it get to this?
After witnessing the demise of the “mainline” business through mismanagement under the stewardship of many different CEOs and Boards, AIPA members have indicated through surveys and direct discussions that no deal is to be done without formal written agreements in place regarding the critical areas of job security and career progression.
Unfortunately this message has failed to get through to senior management and a loud and united voice is now required from all pilots.
The degradation of mainline has, as we all know, not stopped at the first subsidiary. Jetstar is now being undercut and off-shored at every opportunity, with the imminent formation of more off-shore bases proudly announced by Mr Joyce at recent Company roadshows. Additionally, QantasLink is under threat through the acquisition of new “fly-in, fly-out operations” (read: not operations that current pilots are ever likely to participate in!).
If mainline pilots thought they may somehow be immune to this - then think again!! The sham Jetconnect operations have seriously reduced members’ career opportunities and there are no guarantees from management that will restrict the rapid expansion of the off-shoring of mainline operations. In fact, management has confirmed that "all options will be considered".
After the years of neglect and asset stripping of mainline our members have endured, we not only have to give up our entitlements, but also our jobs to boot. Of course, it is the employees’ fault… and the engineers, cabin crew, baggage handlers, airport staff, administration staff and pilots that will mainly have to pay for it.
Unfortunately Qantas pilots and AIPA members, as custodians of our iconic airline, do not have long to turn this around.
Redundancies are imminent with the continual threat that a surplus of 80 to 90 pilots exists. Some categories will shortly run out of leave and with that will come a reduction in numbers and the prospect of even more redundancies. We do of course have some categories operating at comfortable margins above minimum (if not at maximum) however, management does not see fit to promote in order to avoid further degradation. Rather, management will continue with running down entitlements before showing you the door.
In summary, on instructions from our members, the focus of this EA negotiation is not remuneration but rather to secure a written agreement which provides job security. Qantas was advised of AIPA’s move away from remuneration based outcomes and our desire to consider contract flexibility in order to achieve job security and career progression provisions.
Management’s rejection of this position has led us to the Off Duty Pilot Meetings to be held as follows:
Sydney
Friday, 11 February 2011
St George Rowing Club
1 Levey Street, Wolli Creek NSW
11:00 am
Melbourne
Monday, 14 February 2011
Melrose Melbourne Conference and Reception Centre
Corner Melrose and Carrick Drives, Tullamarine VIC
11:00 am
AIPA has been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, "no matter how low you go, they will always look for someone cheaper".
With this in mind, at these meetings AIPA will confirm the direction from its members in regards to action to be taken. It is expected a discussion on Protected Industrial Action will take place and AIPA legal staff, the EA Negotiating Team and members of the COM and Executive will be present to answer questions. It is imperative that all members attend and wear your Secure Our Flying lanyards.
REMEMBER, IT’S YOUR FUTURE.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Qantas Rejects Pilots Offer
Looks like things are starting to "heat-up" at the flying kangaroo. Today the CEO of Qantas rejected an offer from the pilots seeking job security in lieu of remuneration. In a statement released today.... Senior Qantas management delivered the message that Qantas is not prepared to work with pilots to provide written job security provisions in return for improved flexibility and productivity.
Further to this, the pilots have stated that......... AIPA has been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we [AIPA] are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, "no matter how low you go, they [QF]will always look for someone cheaper".
Off-duty meetings are planned this week and next.
With this in mind, at these meetings AIPA will confirm the direction from its members in regards to action to be taken. It is expected a discussion on Protected Industrial Action will take place.
One wonders how how long it will be before Operation Dragon will become Operation DragonSlayer..........
.... the rot really has set in...... very sad...
Further to this, the pilots have stated that......... AIPA has been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we [AIPA] are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, "no matter how low you go, they [QF]will always look for someone cheaper".
Off-duty meetings are planned this week and next.
With this in mind, at these meetings AIPA will confirm the direction from its members in regards to action to be taken. It is expected a discussion on Protected Industrial Action will take place.
One wonders how how long it will be before Operation Dragon will become Operation DragonSlayer..........
.... the rot really has set in...... very sad...
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A lot of pilots I have spoken to will be there.
I have a question.
This time 2 years ago, many pilots were threatened with redundancy.
Most took a flexi-line (pay cut) to raise $8m to keep some 130 pilot in a job for 12 months. Due to enough flexi-lines being taken, there were no redundancies.
It was then seen that Dixon received an $11m payout for ....
So is this just round two? I mean, if Qantas were serious about resurrecting the International arm of the airline, why would they get rid of some 80-90 pilots who would probably be need for expansion or increase in route frequency.
If we take a flexi line AGAIN to save our jobs, will Joyce retire, get a pay out and we're all still in the same boat?
Im pretty f*&ken sick of this game, I love the job, I love the crew I operate with, but for crying out loud, what is with these fricken chess matches? Joyce, it's things are so bad, take a bloody pay cut! Ha, yeah right!!
Is it time to apply to Virgin?
I have a question.
This time 2 years ago, many pilots were threatened with redundancy.
Most took a flexi-line (pay cut) to raise $8m to keep some 130 pilot in a job for 12 months. Due to enough flexi-lines being taken, there were no redundancies.
It was then seen that Dixon received an $11m payout for ....
So is this just round two? I mean, if Qantas were serious about resurrecting the International arm of the airline, why would they get rid of some 80-90 pilots who would probably be need for expansion or increase in route frequency.
If we take a flexi line AGAIN to save our jobs, will Joyce retire, get a pay out and we're all still in the same boat?
Im pretty f*&ken sick of this game, I love the job, I love the crew I operate with, but for crying out loud, what is with these fricken chess matches? Joyce, it's things are so bad, take a bloody pay cut! Ha, yeah right!!
Is it time to apply to Virgin?
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Joyce inherited a poison chalice when he took the gig at QF. We may all hate the wiley Dixon but he knew a lemon when he saw one and he knew that with all the cost cutting he presided over eventually something would have to give.
Years of cutting to the bone prior to Joyce's arrival has left him little left to skin. He knows that he has some real problems on his hands trying to maintain profit for the shareholders, but where is he going to turn his attention to next ? Yep, all those 'greedy, nasty selfish pilots' ( I say this tongue in cheek). Yes, how dare those pilots earn a decent quid keeping tens of thousands of people safe each day, sacrificing family life to work shift work and miss watching the kids grow up.
No I suspect Alan will go on one last cost cutting spree (or maybe several) hopefully jacking up the profits enough to set himself up with a tidy departure nest egg and maybe return as a consultant or board member ?
Years of cutting to the bone prior to Joyce's arrival has left him little left to skin. He knows that he has some real problems on his hands trying to maintain profit for the shareholders, but where is he going to turn his attention to next ? Yep, all those 'greedy, nasty selfish pilots' ( I say this tongue in cheek). Yes, how dare those pilots earn a decent quid keeping tens of thousands of people safe each day, sacrificing family life to work shift work and miss watching the kids grow up.
No I suspect Alan will go on one last cost cutting spree (or maybe several) hopefully jacking up the profits enough to set himself up with a tidy departure nest egg and maybe return as a consultant or board member ?
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Dont bother with Virgin go for all the contracts happening atm, go to Rishworth and register, unless you need to stay here, everyone has there own situations.
F/O positions in Asia for 10k US atm. Think outside the red square..
F/O positions in Asia for 10k US atm. Think outside the red square..