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DJ Turboprops announced in Skywest tie up

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DJ Turboprops announced in Skywest tie up

Old 12th Jan 2011, 08:20
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The owner of Skywest said on the telelink that the flying to be done was not in WA. This means the Q400/ATR will be doing routes that Embraers do and smaller. Afterall, Embraers were originally brought in to compete against the Qlink "400s".

Do you think JB is going to keep both running side by side particularly when the Q400 wont be under the VB EBA? This means no 11/12 days off 12 hours min rest means etc. The Q400 is not only cheaper to run, it doesn't break down every 5 minutes AND it will have cheaper crew with more rostering flexibility.

Does it need to be spelt out any clearer than that? Its not what people want to hear but its reality.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 08:41
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The Q400 doesn't breakdown every 5 minutes??????....if you believe that you clearly don't fly one.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 09:00
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you clearly don't fly one.
yes thank god.

JB is of the opinion that they are better than Ejets and thats all that matters! Might be ATR's. Some say this 600 is pretty special but other say its slow compared to the Q400.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 09:09
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I never cease to be amazed at the negativity of the new breed of Australian pilots.

Have any of you ever considered that Mr B is smart enough to know that a happy and cohesive workforce is actually an asset rather than a liability.
Have you ever considered that he may even think that engagement is more profitable than disengagement.
Have you ever considered that the reason he was not given the gong in the Q is because he is a reasonable guy, with traditional values.

Mr B will be well aware that one of the biggest blows he can land on his opposition will be to emasculate it's workforce. All he has to do is offer similar salaries, preferential recruitment (for allies) and fleetwide career progression and he will have a compliant, satisfied workforce, and access to as many aircrew as this country can provide. The last thing he would want to do is to piss off those who will make his dream, work.

It is my tip that none of the doomsday scenario's will eventuate. VB will move to a more consultative and inclusive mode.

The plan is not yet fully exposed.

Give the man some credit, and learn to dream. It may come true.

Maui
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 10:08
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Could be ATR 600's and the launch customer for the supposed 90 seater ATR. That would be really interesting.

Bluebottle beat me to it, haven't the Q400's been all grounded at least once this year. Not the most reliable machine, it goes fast and burns the fuel to prove it.

I heard a rumour that QLink was running them a bit slower to try and get close to the advertised engine life. Heard that third hand so happy to be corrected.

New ATR sim in AKL too. New alliance with big brother maybe a regional alliance?
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 10:20
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Realistic TAS for the Q400 is around 315-325kts, depending on weight and conditions. ATR -600 wouldn't be much slower than that.

Either way it would appear that QLink's days of screwing QLD towns may be numbered
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 11:05
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New ATR sim in AKL too
I would say that the ATR - 600 is too far removed from the older models in terms of it's cockpit differences that a new - 600 sim would be required by Casa.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 11:09
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When is the soonest that the ATR -600's realistically would be available? Have they started making them yet?
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 11:51
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Note, not all Embraers are leaving DJ. JB confirmed yesterday to all staff the 170's will be gone by mid-year and replaced with the turboprop. 190's are here for at least the medium term has their reliablity has approved and is equal to the 737 and are working well (ie making money) on the thin routes.

-600 deliveries are due to start mid this year and ATR are showing 40 orders, split between the 42 and 72 for undisclosed customers.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 19:54
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Good source says ATR and don't I recall something about the ATR being placed on VB's AOC 12 or so mths ago?

Also Avaition is a lease company so may have options for these a/c it can exercise shortly. Its not VB ordering them.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 20:13
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What's it going to be????

This little foray is off to a good start. Getting the announcement right would be a priority wouldn't it???

Investegate |Skywest Airlines Ltd Announcements | Skywest Airlines Ltd: Strategic Alliance with Virgi

Skywest says turbo jets, Virgin says turbo props......
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 20:51
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Has anyone stopped and thought,that a reasonable number of the F/O positions for this new DJ/Skywest operation, could be filled by Skywest's cadets?

Yes, Skywest has cadets training in MEL from scratch.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 22:42
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Of course!

A perfect tie up. Cadets pay for it all themselves in OZ, and the status quo for their wages will fit in nicely with VB's policy of reducing T&C's with the introduction of each new Operation and/or type. They can source Type Rated Captains from Europe, The US, South Africa etc, Pay them $70K P/A, and these people will be grateful.

Slicker than snot!

maui:

Agree with your sentiments 100%, but do you honestly believe that JB will embark upon such an enlightened path. They are all tared with the same brush, and with the utmost of respect, you of all people should know that. If I'm wrong, I'll shout it from the rooftops, but I'm afraid I have to agree with Kenny and ANCDU (posts #64 &#65) of the most likely outcome, crewing wise!
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 00:00
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Krusty.

My point is that the ink is not yet dry and indeed the chapter is not yet fully written. Many more pages to come. And still we have all in sundry jumping on the "how are they going to screw us this time" band wagon.

Mr B is yet to prove his credentials WRT to enlightenment/engagement, however unless/until he shows evil intent, he deserves the chance to lay out his plans in an orderly fashion.

When it is all out there, if you don't like it, kick and scream as much as you like.
I have spoken with the man on a one to one basis, and came away impressed. Naive? Perhaps. Only time will tell.
Sure as hell though if people piss him off enough with their "not fair, not fair" rantings he has the power to screw us all mightily, should he feel that way inclined. Having said that, I gained the distinct impression that he felt engagement was by far the better option.

Personally, I think the nay sayers and second guessers should wind their necks in a bit, and allow management to manage. We should do what we do best, operate the company's equipment, and if at the end of the day when ALL plans are known, it is not to our liking, THEN we should be stridently vocal.

For info, I am at the stage where I don't really have a horse in this race, I am along for the ride but the outcome for me is largely irrelevant. Perhaps that gives me the comfort of a different perspective. I am not and never have been an apologist for management. I have the badges and the scars to prove it. The one thing I have learned is that the old saying about continually doing the same, inevitably results in the same outcome, is so true.
The expression "self fulfilling prophesy" looms large in my mind.
How about doing something different, like giving a professional manager a chance to declare what he is about, BEFORE we hang him. You never know, maybe that nice guy exterior may just extend below the surface.

Maui
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 00:05
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ATR have three undisclosed customers for the 600 series whereas Bombardier have no undisclosed orders late last year, ATR also have a major annual press conference next week, however I expect the announcement will be made at Avalon.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 00:06
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Realistic TAS for the Q400 is around 315-325kts, depending on weight and conditions. ATR -600 wouldn't be much slower than that.
QLink operates the Q400 at these speeds for whatever reason, it can easily achieve 340kts in cruise.

The ATR-72-500 is only capable of 275TAS at max weight in optimum conditions. The -600 has 5% more power available for take-off and max continuous climb. This allows an increase in max take-off weight and cruise altitude capability but there is no mention of increased speed as the cruise power settings would not increase much. Considering the increased weight the aircraft should be about the same speed. The ATR 42 because of its lighter weight and smaller frame is capable of 300KTAS.

The speed difference on the longer sectors is noticed by the passengers, even when its only 40kts its still around 5-10minutes on a 200nm sector and the slower time to climb will also make a difference.

Other differences between the two aircraft is that the ATR 72 will struggle above FL160 heavy (especially in ice), the dash easily makes FL200+. A big consideration with weather in SE Aus. During winter the worst icing occurs in the 10000ft to FL200 range. At least a SAAB will happily fly long distances under 10000ft with its helicopter engines to avoid headwinds and ice.

The first delivery of ATR-600 to a leasing company is not due until late 2011.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 00:58
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If people would read the Skywest T & Cs in Riding the Goat's post on page 3 they would find a lot of the answers to their questions. SALPA have done a lot of good work over the years and I doubt you will see them leading the race to the bottom.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 03:56
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Just read the Skywest EBA and agree they are far from the bottom.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 05:00
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If people would read the Skywest T & Cs in Riding the Goat's post on page 3 they would find a lot of the answers to their questions. SALPA have done a lot of good work over the years and I doubt you will see them leading the race to the bottom.
What's the saying about, you can lead a horse to water, but you cann't make it drink. Most pilots are only interested in the salary chart and skip the fine print. The EBA has provisions for new aircraft types, new bases, direct entry crew for new aircraft on contract, bonds (new to Skywest), etc, and it was helped by the TWU!

For those that again are too lazy to look, here is the sales pitch for the ATR. Like all good marketing material, take 5% off the stated figures and that is probably what it will do:

ATR-600 Series - ATR - Propelling Tomorrow's World

500 Series Perf Specs (scroll down page):

ATR 72-500 - ATR - Propelling Tomorrow's World

ATR makes sense as 42/72-600 are a common cockpit, engine, etc. Very easy for crewing, ops and maint. They also offer a business class option, which would be an interesting addition on a regional in OZ.

If the competion is QLink, why would you go head to head with an established operator with the same equipment unless you could keep costs down. At this stage it doesn't look like Skywest are going to screw the T&C's of their staff so it makes sense that they are going to offer a different product as their point of difference, enter the ATR.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 07:00
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The ATR 600 looks good, easy conversion for Q400 crews..... and Skywest pay more than Qlink....
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