View Poll Results: Would you willingly submit to full body scanning, should it be introduced?
Yes
82
10.12%
No
685
84.57%
Undecided
43
5.31%
Voters: 810. This poll is closed
Body Scanners: Will you go for the genital feel up or the nude photos and a cancer?
This is not a question of employee benefits or travel perks. This core issue is subjecting pilots to unreasonable security checks (bordering on harassment in the U.S.) every time they present for work.
Firstly a key issue:
Common sense dictates that pilots are a very low threat to security. In fact they are responsible for the safe conduct of their flight.
Do pilots represent a threat to their own aircraft, and how should this be managed?
I would imagine that most readers on this forum would be aware that pilots control the trajectory of their own aircraft, and should one pilot wish to do the unthinkable while the other was taking a bathroom break, it wouldn't be that hard. Pilots are employed to ensure the safe conduct of their flight, a great deal of trust is instilled with this responsibility. Pilots should be, and are, adequately vetted, profiled and monitored to ensure this trust is not misplaced. Any reasonable person can see that checking a pilot for weapons, explosives or even a 110g tube of toothpaste is a waste of time and resources.
But what about if they were to pass a weapon to someone else in the sterile area with the view to threatening an aircraft other than their own?
Well, we've already established that a pilot has been vetted and entrusted with the safety of their own aircraft, ie. they do not represent a serious risk of a suicide mission, so what could be the possible motivations for such an action? The pilot is under duress? perhaps his/her family has been threatened or taken hostage? Why would a pilot be a greater risk for this than a law enforcement officer who is already exempt from screening, or a screening officer? and besides, I have enough faith in airport security and screening officers that they would be able to detect the differences that would present in the persona of a pilot/police officer/screener in such a circumstance. How about financial incentive? Well really how much is a pilot at risk? I would suggest pilots as professional workers, with years of training and who are reasonably well remunerated present the same, if not less of a risk profile that a law enforcement officer or screening personnel.
But what if someone was to impersonate a pilot?
or as Ken Borough put it
Why would it be easier to impersonate a pilot than a police officer? How can the threat be managed? How about the same as it will be soon in the US, a database of airline pilot's with matching photos and two forms of high quality ID.
What about this business of aircraft cleaners and ramp personnel?
Heres the ridiculous part, we screen pilots who present a very low threat yet choose not to screen airport workers who; have access to aircraft, could easily hide an explosive or weapon, generally (some) earn a lower salary than pilots and would therefore be more at risk to financial persuasion, can enter their job with very little training (lead time), and are less able to be monitored than qualified airline pilots.
Airport security must be simple and pilots are just being precious aren't they?
Screening pilots is counter-productive and does nothing for simplicity. There are already groups of people exempt from screening. Pilots should be allowed to go about their jobs and critical pre-flight routine without distraction and harassment, they should be part of the security solution, not part of the problem!!!
One final note, this exemption to screening for pilots, is not about any perceived superiority complex, it just makes good sense, we are not talking about allowing pilots to bypass security when they are off-duty but when they are working and entrusted with the ultimate responsibility for the safety of their flight and the 400 odd people they may be carrying.
Regards,
MHA
Firstly a key issue:
Common sense dictates that pilots are a very low threat to security. In fact they are responsible for the safe conduct of their flight.
Do pilots represent a threat to their own aircraft, and how should this be managed?
I would imagine that most readers on this forum would be aware that pilots control the trajectory of their own aircraft, and should one pilot wish to do the unthinkable while the other was taking a bathroom break, it wouldn't be that hard. Pilots are employed to ensure the safe conduct of their flight, a great deal of trust is instilled with this responsibility. Pilots should be, and are, adequately vetted, profiled and monitored to ensure this trust is not misplaced. Any reasonable person can see that checking a pilot for weapons, explosives or even a 110g tube of toothpaste is a waste of time and resources.
But what about if they were to pass a weapon to someone else in the sterile area with the view to threatening an aircraft other than their own?
Well, we've already established that a pilot has been vetted and entrusted with the safety of their own aircraft, ie. they do not represent a serious risk of a suicide mission, so what could be the possible motivations for such an action? The pilot is under duress? perhaps his/her family has been threatened or taken hostage? Why would a pilot be a greater risk for this than a law enforcement officer who is already exempt from screening, or a screening officer? and besides, I have enough faith in airport security and screening officers that they would be able to detect the differences that would present in the persona of a pilot/police officer/screener in such a circumstance. How about financial incentive? Well really how much is a pilot at risk? I would suggest pilots as professional workers, with years of training and who are reasonably well remunerated present the same, if not less of a risk profile that a law enforcement officer or screening personnel.
But what if someone was to impersonate a pilot?
or as Ken Borough put it
It is very easy to acquire pilots and crew uniforms and what would pass muster as an ASIC Card or similar.
What about this business of aircraft cleaners and ramp personnel?
Heres the ridiculous part, we screen pilots who present a very low threat yet choose not to screen airport workers who; have access to aircraft, could easily hide an explosive or weapon, generally (some) earn a lower salary than pilots and would therefore be more at risk to financial persuasion, can enter their job with very little training (lead time), and are less able to be monitored than qualified airline pilots.
Airport security must be simple and pilots are just being precious aren't they?
Screening pilots is counter-productive and does nothing for simplicity. There are already groups of people exempt from screening. Pilots should be allowed to go about their jobs and critical pre-flight routine without distraction and harassment, they should be part of the security solution, not part of the problem!!!
One final note, this exemption to screening for pilots, is not about any perceived superiority complex, it just makes good sense, we are not talking about allowing pilots to bypass security when they are off-duty but when they are working and entrusted with the ultimate responsibility for the safety of their flight and the 400 odd people they may be carrying.
Regards,
MHA
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 45
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love the kilt idea, commando style!
Then on the return trip I might even opt to go through the radiation shower wearing a knee length lead vest that I reckon I can borrow from a dentist friend of mine.
FRQ CB
Aye, fight and you may not fly. be scanned, and you'll travel... at least this time. And laying in your hotel beds, many miles from the scanner, would you be willin' to trade ALL the cancer, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our tweezers, but they'll never take... OUR PICTURES!
Then on the return trip I might even opt to go through the radiation shower wearing a knee length lead vest that I reckon I can borrow from a dentist friend of mine.
FRQ CB
Aye, fight and you may not fly. be scanned, and you'll travel... at least this time. And laying in your hotel beds, many miles from the scanner, would you be willin' to trade ALL the cancer, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our tweezers, but they'll never take... OUR PICTURES!
MaxHelixAngle,
Very well said sir. Can I suggest that you send your post in a formal letter to:
Paul Retter - Executive Director OTS,
Mike Mrdak - Secretary Dept of Infrastructure
Anthony Albanese - Minister for Infrastructure and Transport.
It's about time that these clowns in OTS who have clearly never worked in the aviation sector are called to account. It has become something of a haven for retired cops and military types.
Perhaps Senator Xenophon would should also be lobbied. He was after all quite instrumental in defeating the governments latest flight deck access legislation.
Very well said sir. Can I suggest that you send your post in a formal letter to:
Paul Retter - Executive Director OTS,
Mike Mrdak - Secretary Dept of Infrastructure
Anthony Albanese - Minister for Infrastructure and Transport.
It's about time that these clowns in OTS who have clearly never worked in the aviation sector are called to account. It has become something of a haven for retired cops and military types.
Perhaps Senator Xenophon would should also be lobbied. He was after all quite instrumental in defeating the governments latest flight deck access legislation.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But what about if they were to pass a weapon to someone else in the sterile area with the view to threatening an aircraft other than their own?
Flight Attendants are now exempt in the US as well.
US flight attendants exempted from body scanners
In the meanwhile we can all just wear:
Airport body scanner protection | Underwear blocks radiation
US flight attendants exempted from body scanners
In the meanwhile we can all just wear:
Airport body scanner protection | Underwear blocks radiation
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: a nica place
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
YouTube - Young Boy Strip searched by TSA (Original w/ Full Story Description)
Inverted Body Scanner Image Shows Naked Body In Full Living Color
New Body Scanners to Store Biometrics | Dprogram.net
Question is when will this ridiculas security issues stop? Next it will be the train stations, concerts etc etc.
It is unfounded, and the ironic timing of the shoe and underware bomber, printer bombs in the lead up to the introduction of these scanning devices and the US elections.
Unfortunately the Chernoff who introduced the scanners while in public office is now ceo of the scanner company. Scam/corruption plain and simple.
Not to mention the Health effects of backscattter radiation that is 10x more than a chest xray. And the fact that these machines can also store images and they do, as well as store biometric data as well.
What is the media doing about it? not that much, occasionally coming out with sensationalised stories of threats.
9/11 Mastermind Invited to Pentagon
Al-Qaeda terror mastermind Anwar Al-Awlaki had dinner at the pentagon after 9/11. Is anyone paying attention to this. Most of all of this is govt sponsered terror is to scare populations. And people are so busy, they dont want to read about this, they just believe what the "news" tells them!
Just say NO to the scanners and the patdowns. World Opt out day is NOV 24th 2010.
Inverted Body Scanner Image Shows Naked Body In Full Living Color
New Body Scanners to Store Biometrics | Dprogram.net
Question is when will this ridiculas security issues stop? Next it will be the train stations, concerts etc etc.
It is unfounded, and the ironic timing of the shoe and underware bomber, printer bombs in the lead up to the introduction of these scanning devices and the US elections.
Unfortunately the Chernoff who introduced the scanners while in public office is now ceo of the scanner company. Scam/corruption plain and simple.
Not to mention the Health effects of backscattter radiation that is 10x more than a chest xray. And the fact that these machines can also store images and they do, as well as store biometric data as well.
What is the media doing about it? not that much, occasionally coming out with sensationalised stories of threats.
9/11 Mastermind Invited to Pentagon
Al-Qaeda terror mastermind Anwar Al-Awlaki had dinner at the pentagon after 9/11. Is anyone paying attention to this. Most of all of this is govt sponsered terror is to scare populations. And people are so busy, they dont want to read about this, they just believe what the "news" tells them!
Just say NO to the scanners and the patdowns. World Opt out day is NOV 24th 2010.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 704
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote from MaxHelixAngle:
But what about if they were to pass a weapon to someone else in the sterile area with the view to threatening an aircraft other than their own?
But what about if they were to pass a weapon to someone else in the sterile area with the view to threatening an aircraft other than their own?
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sunny side up
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very easily if you go airside. Airside areas are not part of the sterile area and they have multiple access points that are not in the sterile area. There is basic airside access security now at the bigger airports (and I mean basic) but nothing like the level at the sterile area access points.
This is why people are complaining about cleaners, engineers etc accessing aircraft without going through screening. The majority of staff that access aircraft do so with little or no screening at all.
This is why people are complaining about cleaners, engineers etc accessing aircraft without going through screening. The majority of staff that access aircraft do so with little or no screening at all.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 704
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very easily if you go airside. Airside areas are not part of the sterile area and they have multiple access points that are not in the sterile area. There is basic airside access security now at the bigger airports (and I mean basic) but nothing like the level at the sterile area access points.
This is why people are complaining about cleaners, engineers etc accessing aircraft without going through screening. The majority of staff that access aircraft do so with little or no screening at all.
This is why people are complaining about cleaners, engineers etc accessing aircraft without going through screening. The majority of staff that access aircraft do so with little or no screening at all.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Enroute from Dagobah to Tatooine...!
Posts: 791
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Very eloquent Max Helix Angle - great stuff!
Crew screening is much like screening a Doctor before he walks into the hospital and taking a pocket knife off him before he goes to work with drugs, needles and scalpels as a highly qualified surgeon. The security then smile thinking they have successfully eliminated the possibility of a Dr Patel reoccurrance... Meanwhile, orderlies and nurses who will also work in the operating theatre with the Doctor are allowed in the back door without any screening.
It's a very rough analogy but it illustrates the current stupidity...
Crew screening is much like screening a Doctor before he walks into the hospital and taking a pocket knife off him before he goes to work with drugs, needles and scalpels as a highly qualified surgeon. The security then smile thinking they have successfully eliminated the possibility of a Dr Patel reoccurrance...
Meanwhile, orderlies and nurses who will also work in the operating theatre with the Doctor are allowed in the back door without any screening.It's a very rough analogy but it illustrates the current stupidity...
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sunny side up
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doh! And once airside, what prevents someone accessing the ground-level stairs to get back up to the gate to board the aircraft?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MaxHelixAngle, I have one very serious and possibly insurmountable problem with what you wrote:
It does not take into account the blind stupidity of Governments, politicians, and bureaucracies.
It does not take into account the blind stupidity of Governments, politicians, and bureaucracies.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: at home
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree, anyone goes for a touchup on my nuts, I'll be sure to go a touchup on their face. The last thing they would remember when waking up in hospital is that a fist hit them in the face at a 120mph
Biter...
Somehow I don't think anyone's going to remember ANYTHING if you hit them that hard.
From http://www.ama-assn.org/meetings/pub...a/rtf/csa3.rtf
I totally agree with your sentiments though. 
Somehow I don't think anyone's going to remember ANYTHING if you hit them that hard.
From http://www.ama-assn.org/meetings/pub...a/rtf/csa3.rtf
One kinematic analysis of the mechanical properties of a boxing punch from a professional heavyweight estimated a peak force on impact of 0.4 ton delivered at a velocity of 8.9 meters/sec, which represents a blow to the head approaching 0.63 ton. The latter is equivalent to swinging a padded wooden mallet with a mass of 6 kg at 20 miles per hour.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Body Scanner , it's a danger
I trained as a radiographer in the 70's an let met put some facts in this discussion. Firstly nobody knows how much radiation is too much, there are cumulative dose standards, but they do not explain all eventualities. For example one theory is we need to only hit one cell, in the right place, at the wrong time. It was explained, in this way get your mate to take a marble out and drop it somewhere in Sydney Harbour, then you fly over at FL400 and drop another marble. If you hit, you have a problem.
This theory works in that it explains rare occurrences with minimal exposure and fits the massive exposure scenario, throw out millions of marbles one has to hit. It even explains the people submitted to high levels with no adverse event, they all missed.
Next this ionising radiation is backscatter low energy stuff that does not penetrate far but rather, is absorbed by soft tissue, considered to be more risky.
Radiation is most dangerous to rapidly dividing cells, that's why it's used and is effective in cancer treatment , and you avoid any x-rays on women in early pregnancy at all cost.
One of the fastest growing areas off the body are the cornea of your eyes. It has been described as growing like weed because the cells divide so rapidly .
So you blokes who are going to be driven through these scanners several times a day will be a significant risk of bizarre , rare but increasing in frequency ophthalmic conditions and malignancies . You won't have worry about getting visual on the ILS , it won't look any different.
I will not be exposed anywhere near as much as the professionals, but I am not going through the scanners. I will drive the C172, and if that's out of reach I will not go.
This theory works in that it explains rare occurrences with minimal exposure and fits the massive exposure scenario, throw out millions of marbles one has to hit. It even explains the people submitted to high levels with no adverse event, they all missed.
Next this ionising radiation is backscatter low energy stuff that does not penetrate far but rather, is absorbed by soft tissue, considered to be more risky.
Radiation is most dangerous to rapidly dividing cells, that's why it's used and is effective in cancer treatment , and you avoid any x-rays on women in early pregnancy at all cost.
One of the fastest growing areas off the body are the cornea of your eyes. It has been described as growing like weed because the cells divide so rapidly .
So you blokes who are going to be driven through these scanners several times a day will be a significant risk of bizarre , rare but increasing in frequency ophthalmic conditions and malignancies . You won't have worry about getting visual on the ILS , it won't look any different.
I will not be exposed anywhere near as much as the professionals, but I am not going through the scanners. I will drive the C172, and if that's out of reach I will not go.