View Poll Results: Would you willingly submit to full body scanning, should it be introduced?
Yes
82
10.12%
No
685
84.57%
Undecided
43
5.31%
Voters: 810. This poll is closed
Body Scanners: Will you go for the genital feel up or the nude photos and a cancer?
I have not had a desire to go the USA until they became a lot less paranoid, but the TSA is just totally over-the-top and not constrained by any sane sense of proportion. (a lot of it is still the legacy of 'dubya' bush, but Obama hasn't improved things)
I also have no desire to go to places that just roll-over and submit to the USA demands on all sorts of issues.
It does somewhat limit where I can go, but it is still a big world and the US of A is not at the centre of it, and they will get the minimum amount of my discretionary money.
I also have no desire to go to places that just roll-over and submit to the USA demands on all sorts of issues.
It does somewhat limit where I can go, but it is still a big world and the US of A is not at the centre of it, and they will get the minimum amount of my discretionary money.
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No Ken Do
porch monkey,
Has Ken come back to you yet ?? I thought not. Expert on nothing that is why. If only Ken could rule the world I am sure he would think it a much better place. I dont think he is Alabanese as Albanese is way smarter than Ken !!
Ken, you continually prove yourself to be an idiot. First, with the jump seat issue, now with this. We already get the same checks as everybody else. While most of us grumble about it, we do it. The issue is the further personal degradation and possible health affects by use of the scanning and grope test. Why don't you put your effort in to dealing with the real security issues, like the people who have access who undergo no screening? You seem to think that we as pilots consider ourselves way above everybody else. We don't. We want security like most. The difference is, we see it from the inside, good and bad. That is why we are vocal about addressing the real issues, and getting value for the incredible amounts of money spent. When you can actually understand that concept, then come and talk to us. Or is your real name Albanese?
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I think the above post was for a different thread...
But back to the scanners, get a load of this:
Baywatch Playboy bunny humiliated in airport body scan - Armchair Traveller
But back to the scanners, get a load of this:
Baywatch Playboy bunny humiliated in airport body scan - Armchair Traveller
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Have you seen this??.
Hope I did'nt bugga up the link. (Help mods). Anyway, for those of us with a semblance of humour remaining about this subject.
HELP YOU MAKE IT TO YOUR FLIGHT (On YouTube http://tinyurl.com/TSAtv) | Buck Howdy
HELP YOU MAKE IT TO YOUR FLIGHT (On YouTube http://tinyurl.com/TSAtv) | Buck Howdy
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interesting. All this to stop terrorism. Well, we all know that is the excuse but I think it all started at 9/11. to erode peoples rights.
Pilots For 9/11 Truth
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Firstly, I want to agree with the sentiment on this forum - this is a crock, pure and simple.
Secondly, say you are a 737 pilot coming up to security to get to the 'office'. You are asked to go through the scanner and refuse so they say you must submit yourself to the 'sexual molestation' (and an unwanted firm grope of the male genitals is the perfect description of that). 'No way mate!' is your reply. What happens then? I am assuming they aren't just going to say 'Okay, you called our bluff. Have a good flight.' It seems that you would be stopped from getting onto the plane and since you are needed for the plane to move anywhere beyond the taxiway, the plane will go nowhere.
What will happen then?
Knowing the aviation management scene in Australia, it's likely that some manager would come down from their ivory tower to 'talk it over with you' but if you hold fast what can anyone do? Seems to me that it would show everyone just how much power the pilot has in an airline in determining what goes and what doesn't.
Lastly, I remember reading an article on security at Israeli airports so just had a quick look (and surprisingly for where I live, the word 'Israeli' wasn't blocked and hasn't resulted in the cops belting down my door yet!). There are some things that might not sit entirely comfortably with me (my biggest 'freedom' is freedom from official interference in getting on with my life how I want to) but they do many things that are necessary that the Western world just won't accept - the presence of many TRAINED security personnel to watch everyone who enters the terminal, the checking of passengers and luggage before check in and subjecting checked luggage to overpressure testing to explode any 'devices' before they make it past the first post. Why, oh why, won't these simple but obviously effective measure be adopted yet everything the US does is unfailingly copied, regardless of its effectiveness?
Secondly, say you are a 737 pilot coming up to security to get to the 'office'. You are asked to go through the scanner and refuse so they say you must submit yourself to the 'sexual molestation' (and an unwanted firm grope of the male genitals is the perfect description of that). 'No way mate!' is your reply. What happens then? I am assuming they aren't just going to say 'Okay, you called our bluff. Have a good flight.' It seems that you would be stopped from getting onto the plane and since you are needed for the plane to move anywhere beyond the taxiway, the plane will go nowhere.
What will happen then?
Knowing the aviation management scene in Australia, it's likely that some manager would come down from their ivory tower to 'talk it over with you' but if you hold fast what can anyone do? Seems to me that it would show everyone just how much power the pilot has in an airline in determining what goes and what doesn't.
Lastly, I remember reading an article on security at Israeli airports so just had a quick look (and surprisingly for where I live, the word 'Israeli' wasn't blocked and hasn't resulted in the cops belting down my door yet!). There are some things that might not sit entirely comfortably with me (my biggest 'freedom' is freedom from official interference in getting on with my life how I want to) but they do many things that are necessary that the Western world just won't accept - the presence of many TRAINED security personnel to watch everyone who enters the terminal, the checking of passengers and luggage before check in and subjecting checked luggage to overpressure testing to explode any 'devices' before they make it past the first post. Why, oh why, won't these simple but obviously effective measure be adopted yet everything the US does is unfailingly copied, regardless of its effectiveness?
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Cos it costs money. Money the federal government doesn't have and wouldn't spend if it did.
It's the same reason they didn't regain control of the screening points the day after 9/11 by making all screening staff public servants with proper training, pay and conditions so decent people would want to work there. They were full of empty promises about how it would all change, but in the end nothing did except for the ban on tweezers and knitting needles.
Instead, despite all the whimpering in the press about how they're 'committed to aviation safety' the Department of Infrastructure is happy to leave the basic security checks up to a bunch of poorly paid and minimally trained subcontractors, employed by companies who won those contracts through the tender process by undercutting all their competitors and cutting every corner they possibly could. These are the same badly trained private subcontractors that the DOI would be happy to see frisk search 'random' people, despite the fact that until now, frisk and strip searching powers have been strictly limited to government employed law enforcement officers (who are required to have a level of security clearance, background checks and basic intelligence) with recorded and challengeable reasonable grounds to do so. The only exception is privately run prisons, so basically aviation workers get to be treated the same as convicted criminals
.
Don't assume that the government wants effective security (as the Israeli government provides) because it's a flawed assumption. What they want is the impression of effective security at no cost or responsibility to themselves.
It's the same reason they didn't regain control of the screening points the day after 9/11 by making all screening staff public servants with proper training, pay and conditions so decent people would want to work there. They were full of empty promises about how it would all change, but in the end nothing did except for the ban on tweezers and knitting needles.
Instead, despite all the whimpering in the press about how they're 'committed to aviation safety' the Department of Infrastructure is happy to leave the basic security checks up to a bunch of poorly paid and minimally trained subcontractors, employed by companies who won those contracts through the tender process by undercutting all their competitors and cutting every corner they possibly could. These are the same badly trained private subcontractors that the DOI would be happy to see frisk search 'random' people, despite the fact that until now, frisk and strip searching powers have been strictly limited to government employed law enforcement officers (who are required to have a level of security clearance, background checks and basic intelligence) with recorded and challengeable reasonable grounds to do so. The only exception is privately run prisons, so basically aviation workers get to be treated the same as convicted criminals
. Don't assume that the government wants effective security (as the Israeli government provides) because it's a flawed assumption. What they want is the impression of effective security at no cost or responsibility to themselves.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 19th Dec 2010 at 12:19.
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'No way mate!' is your reply. What happens then? I am assuming they aren't just going to say 'Okay, you called our bluff. Have a good flight.'
PENALTIES:
Have the document somewhere or someone that has it electronically (worrals..
) could post it. Ranging from thousands of dollars to imprisonment are the penalties. So be darn careful what you say and do at security people. Whilst I speak out here I'm not silly enough to speak out or obstruct at the screening point. Remember if you are a hard working tax payer you are living in a police state. If you are a criminal or dole bludger you are living in heaven in Australia. The law only applies to hard working Australians.Albanese has already said: body scan or no fly = no feel up here. This will be a true test for the "unions". If they're weak on this one we're going to be either leaving the industry or staying and facing the risks of cancer and/or birth defects in the case of pregnant women.
This is one if not the most important pressing issue in our industry like it or not.
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from SpringerLink - Journal of Transportation Security, Online First?
via Schneier on Security: Hiding PETN from Full-Body Scanners
The sad thing is, that the multinational security industry will lobby hard for more and more money to be thrown at them by compliant polititians.
(I wonder if Mr Albanese will go for the grope ?)
via Schneier on Security: Hiding PETN from Full-Body Scanners
The sad thing is, that the multinational security industry will lobby hard for more and more money to be thrown at them by compliant polititians.
(I wonder if Mr Albanese will go for the grope ?)
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The relevant legislation is the Aviation Transport Security Act and its Regulations, both available on Comlaw via the Googleopoly. Div 3-4 for the ATSR and Div 2 of the ATSA cover most of this stuff.
From a quick scan, I think s86 of the Aviation Transport Security Act is the most relevant, but only if you insist on entering the sterile area. It carries a 50 penalty unit fine (the current penalty unit is about $110).
If you don't force the issue and walk away, I don't see anything to say that you have committed an offence. I know we discussed this awhile ago and someone else made the valid point that by refusing screening your actions could be seen as suspicious, leaving you open for involuntary search by either the AFP or state police (which is somewhere in the same Act, can't remember where). If you enter the sterile area without screening the operator is also liable for a fine of 200 penalty units if it is found that they didn't administer the screening point properly. Personally I wouldn't take the punt but I'm a naturally cautious individual
.
As for your employer, I don't know about yours, but rightly or wrongly mine would be pretty
ed off. Like most non-violent civil disobedience, a lot would hang on how many other pilots stood with you in defying the screening. I've been hanging around airports for over a decade and on PPRuNe since about 2004, and in that time I haven't seen a lot of solidarity among aviation workers in general and pilots in particular. It could easily turn into one of those 'and the guys are all behind me on this one... guys... guys???' situations.
I think the only way of fighting this is in the media and before it's implemented. Once it's enshrined in legislation (as with Operation Tweezers) it's very hard to work against. Albanese already does a fine job of making himself look stupid, but it's up to all of us to enhance that and point the spotlight at this ridiculous invasion of aviation workers' personal space and health.
Most of the time, individual civil disobedience achieves nothing except making you look like a nutter. If you're not careful it can also make you a criminal. Don't forget that the recent Aviation Screening Review found that the average bogan supports increased aviation screening. Naturally the average bogan only flies once a year (if that) and isn't facing daily irradiation as a condition of their employment.
Fortunately for us, professional noise-makers like Senator Xenaphon and Ben Sandilands have taken a mild interest in this issue, and IMO they can do far more than one person throwing a tantrum at a screening point. Pursuading people like that and our unions to target the issue is far more likely to address this problem, because otherwise we're nothing but ghost opinions in cyberspace fighting the ghost in the government machine.
What will happen then?
If you don't force the issue and walk away, I don't see anything to say that you have committed an offence. I know we discussed this awhile ago and someone else made the valid point that by refusing screening your actions could be seen as suspicious, leaving you open for involuntary search by either the AFP or state police (which is somewhere in the same Act, can't remember where). If you enter the sterile area without screening the operator is also liable for a fine of 200 penalty units if it is found that they didn't administer the screening point properly. Personally I wouldn't take the punt but I'm a naturally cautious individual
. As for your employer, I don't know about yours, but rightly or wrongly mine would be pretty
ed off. Like most non-violent civil disobedience, a lot would hang on how many other pilots stood with you in defying the screening. I've been hanging around airports for over a decade and on PPRuNe since about 2004, and in that time I haven't seen a lot of solidarity among aviation workers in general and pilots in particular. It could easily turn into one of those 'and the guys are all behind me on this one... guys... guys???' situations.I think the only way of fighting this is in the media and before it's implemented. Once it's enshrined in legislation (as with Operation Tweezers
) it's very hard to work against. Albanese already does a fine job of making himself look stupid, but it's up to all of us to enhance that and point the spotlight at this ridiculous invasion of aviation workers' personal space and health. Most of the time, individual civil disobedience achieves nothing except making you look like a nutter. If you're not careful it can also make you a criminal. Don't forget that the recent Aviation Screening Review found that the average bogan supports increased aviation screening. Naturally the average bogan only flies once a year (if that) and isn't facing daily irradiation as a condition of their employment.
Fortunately for us, professional noise-makers like Senator Xenaphon and Ben Sandilands have taken a mild interest in this issue, and IMO they can do far more than one person throwing a tantrum at a screening point. Pursuading people like that and our unions to target the issue is far more likely to address this problem, because otherwise we're nothing but ghost opinions in cyberspace fighting the ghost in the government machine.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 20th Dec 2010 at 12:58.
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Democracy, freedom of speech and the whistleblower..
TSA vs Pilot The Patriot Pilot | Dedicated to Protecting the American Dream
YouTube - 'Patriot Pilot' Angers TSA With Video Ripping Security
America's 'Patriot Pilot' exposes airport security flaws on YouTube | News.com.au
by Staff WritersFrom: NewsCore December 29, 2010 9:34AM
THE Californian pilot who posted several YouTube videos criticising security at San Francisco International Airport defended his effort to expose flaws in the screening system after revealing his identity.
The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is investigating whether Chris Liu, 50, revealed any sensitive information in the six videos, which, among other things, show how ground crews can enter secure areas just by swiping a badge and passing through a single door.
"As you can see, airport security is kind of a farce," he says during the video shot at San Francisco International.
But Liu and his attorney batted down accusations that the videos revealed any airport secrets.
"There are more videos that are on YouTube that go into more detail than mine," Liu said during a press conference at the airport Tuesday. His attorney Don Werno added that the security problems were in plain view and said, "As we all know, terrorists have video cameras."
Related Coverage
Liu, who calls himself "The Patriot Pilot" on his website, had earlier expressed shock at the national controversy his videos stirred.
"There have been numerous articles written about this security problem, and I just wanted to address it," the pilot said Tuesday on ABC's "Good Morning America." "I didn't really think that anybody was watching YouTube, so I didn't really think much of it."
The videos are no longer posted on the website. Liu said he took them down in compliance with his employer, American Airlines. When asked if he was still employed, Liu said "I hope so," as his lawyer tried to divert attention away from the pilot's personal life.
"It's a story about an American who saw a security problem," Werno said. "It's not a personal interest story -- It's a public interest story."
The pilot had been part of a federal security program allowing him to carry a gun in the cockpit, but his weapon was confiscated by federal Air Marshals and he was suspended from the program in light of the investigation.
The TSA told Fox News in a statement last week that it was "confident" in its airport security measures, adding that all pilots who are part of the program authorising them to carry a weapon are expected to keep "sensitive security information" as a condition of their participation
YouTube - 'Patriot Pilot' Angers TSA With Video Ripping Security
America's 'Patriot Pilot' exposes airport security flaws on YouTube | News.com.au
by Staff WritersFrom: NewsCore December 29, 2010 9:34AM
THE Californian pilot who posted several YouTube videos criticising security at San Francisco International Airport defended his effort to expose flaws in the screening system after revealing his identity.
The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is investigating whether Chris Liu, 50, revealed any sensitive information in the six videos, which, among other things, show how ground crews can enter secure areas just by swiping a badge and passing through a single door.
"As you can see, airport security is kind of a farce," he says during the video shot at San Francisco International.
But Liu and his attorney batted down accusations that the videos revealed any airport secrets.
"There are more videos that are on YouTube that go into more detail than mine," Liu said during a press conference at the airport Tuesday. His attorney Don Werno added that the security problems were in plain view and said, "As we all know, terrorists have video cameras."
Related Coverage
Liu, who calls himself "The Patriot Pilot" on his website, had earlier expressed shock at the national controversy his videos stirred.
"There have been numerous articles written about this security problem, and I just wanted to address it," the pilot said Tuesday on ABC's "Good Morning America." "I didn't really think that anybody was watching YouTube, so I didn't really think much of it."
The videos are no longer posted on the website. Liu said he took them down in compliance with his employer, American Airlines. When asked if he was still employed, Liu said "I hope so," as his lawyer tried to divert attention away from the pilot's personal life.
"It's a story about an American who saw a security problem," Werno said. "It's not a personal interest story -- It's a public interest story."
The pilot had been part of a federal security program allowing him to carry a gun in the cockpit, but his weapon was confiscated by federal Air Marshals and he was suspended from the program in light of the investigation.
The TSA told Fox News in a statement last week that it was "confident" in its airport security measures, adding that all pilots who are part of the program authorising them to carry a weapon are expected to keep "sensitive security information" as a condition of their participation
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 29th Dec 2010 at 11:40.
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From another blog
Classic!!
Year to date statistics on Airport screening from the Department of Homeland Security:
Terrorist Plots Discovered 0
Transvestites 133
Hernias 1,485
Hemorrhoid Cases 3,172
Enlarged Prostates 8,249
Breast Implants 59,350
Natural Blondes 3
Classic!!
Year to date statistics on Airport screening from the Department of Homeland Security:
Terrorist Plots Discovered 0
Transvestites 133
Hernias 1,485
Hemorrhoid Cases 3,172
Enlarged Prostates 8,249
Breast Implants 59,350
Natural Blondes 3
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US citizens conditioned to accept being a terrorist until proven guilty 300,000,000+
We all know that 911 was conceived to push through the Patriot Act (and if you don't then it's time to pull your head out of your a$$!)
It has been happening here as well - The Truth About Bali Bombings
Did you know that Federal Police can now search your house without a warrant an hold you indefinitely under the Australian legislation. You don't even need to be suspected of terrorism, just anti government sentiment. Free country aye.
Radiation and nude photos will be the least of our problems. I think it's time intelligent people to start waking up
We all know that 911 was conceived to push through the Patriot Act (and if you don't then it's time to pull your head out of your a$$!)
It has been happening here as well - The Truth About Bali Bombings
Did you know that Federal Police can now search your house without a warrant an hold you indefinitely under the Australian legislation. You don't even need to be suspected of terrorism, just anti government sentiment. Free country aye.
Radiation and nude photos will be the least of our problems. I think it's time intelligent people to start waking up
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Did you know that Federal Police can now search your house without a warrant an hold you indefinitely under the Australian legislation. You don't even need to be suspected of terrorism, just anti government sentiment. Free country aye.
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Cops frisk rail travellers
01 Mar, 2011 01:00 AM
RAIL commuters were made to walk through metal detectors and have police frisk them with hand-held wands at Frankston station on Friday afternoon.
Transit police seized three weapons, arrested a wanted teenager, issued a cannabis caution notice and carried out 175 random searches during Operation Omni, the first of many to be carried out at metropolitan stations.
During the operation, a member of the public told the police he had identified a teenager on the platform as the person depicted in a Crime Stoppers poster at the station.
The police approached the teenager, who admitted to being the person.
The 17-year-old Hastings male was arrested and will be charged on summons with theft and other offences.
Inspector Phillip Green of the Victoria
Police transit safety division said police were committed to targeting crime on public transport.
"We have 250 specialist transit police who are dedicated to ensuring Victoria has a safe public transport system," he said.
-Mike Morris
01 Mar, 2011 01:00 AM
RAIL commuters were made to walk through metal detectors and have police frisk them with hand-held wands at Frankston station on Friday afternoon.
Transit police seized three weapons, arrested a wanted teenager, issued a cannabis caution notice and carried out 175 random searches during Operation Omni, the first of many to be carried out at metropolitan stations.
During the operation, a member of the public told the police he had identified a teenager on the platform as the person depicted in a Crime Stoppers poster at the station.
The police approached the teenager, who admitted to being the person.
The 17-year-old Hastings male was arrested and will be charged on summons with theft and other offences.
Inspector Phillip Green of the Victoria
Police transit safety division said police were committed to targeting crime on public transport.
"We have 250 specialist transit police who are dedicated to ensuring Victoria has a safe public transport system," he said.
-Mike Morris
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Australia is more paranoid with rules than the usa
1) in usa standby bags go to destination regardless of whether passenger gets on
2) in usa if you fail to make flight, bags don't get offloaded (domestically at least)
How do I know? 1st hand experience.
1) in usa standby bags go to destination regardless of whether passenger gets on
2) in usa if you fail to make flight, bags don't get offloaded (domestically at least)
How do I know? 1st hand experience.