Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....
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Yes, brave...and constructive.
I think we will look back on this period and be VERY glad that people like Joe had the courage to stick their head above the parapet for something they passionately believed in.
On ya Joe!
PG
I think we will look back on this period and be VERY glad that people like Joe had the courage to stick their head above the parapet for something they passionately believed in.
On ya Joe!
PG
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This thread is full of what is most rotten in this industry. Grown men and women from positions of trust within our industry blaming everyone else for their lot and being as petty and as juvenile as they can about someone who should be applauded and supported for drawing a line in the sand.
No wonder our industry is up s#!t creek when even QF pilots start whining and moaning about everyone else's capitulation instead of their own. Yes I am very aware of what went on thank you very much... however it is always going to be the public attitudes of 's like Ken B and Autobrakes that tar many really good people in QF with a that same brush.
No wonder our industry is up s#!t creek when even QF pilots start whining and moaning about everyone else's capitulation instead of their own. Yes I am very aware of what went on thank you very much... however it is always going to be the public attitudes of 's like Ken B and Autobrakes that tar many really good people in QF with a that same brush.
May I humbly suggest, that some of the previous posters, read this again, carefully?
Once they have, they might like to reflect on their own maturity & think where the industry is going & not where it has been.
For, at the moment the divisive bickering & lack of unity is exactly why terms & conditions are going where they are.......
Hear hear.
When you live....
Reluctantly joining this thread - congratulations on a well written article.
To those who consider that moving Jetstar jobs to Singapore is just the next evolution of the creation of Jetstar itself, please consider:
a) it is undeniable that Jetstar has created more demand in the market than would otherwise have existed and hence more flying jobs (irrespective of conditions)
b) Jetstar (in it's original form) created Australian jobs. Jetstar Singapore, once devoid of Australian pilots will simply crew from SE Asia into the Australian domestic market.
Fundamental differences. Please stop shooting yourselves and each other in the foot.
UTR
To those who consider that moving Jetstar jobs to Singapore is just the next evolution of the creation of Jetstar itself, please consider:
a) it is undeniable that Jetstar has created more demand in the market than would otherwise have existed and hence more flying jobs (irrespective of conditions)
b) Jetstar (in it's original form) created Australian jobs. Jetstar Singapore, once devoid of Australian pilots will simply crew from SE Asia into the Australian domestic market.
Fundamental differences. Please stop shooting yourselves and each other in the foot.
UTR
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AIPA did this, Jet* Pilots did that, blah blah blah.....
Who allegedly did what to whom previously is quite irrelevant. We find ourselves as a group where we are now and if we want to save our profession from ruin we have to forget about previous division and look forward. Harping on about perceived ironies and hypocrisies is pointless and does nothing but play into the hands of the Managers and ‘Consultants’ that concoct these plays. The term cutting off your nose despite your face springs to mind. It’s time to let that crap go and look forward. The good news here is that I believe the majority are and it’s normal that we will always get a couple of posters who lack the maturity to think bigger.
Ps: Well done Joseph.
Ps: Well done Joseph.
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Well said Joe - eloquent and concise.
People like Ken Borough and Autobrakes 4, yes you might have valid points BUT IT IS IN THE PAST. I don't much like the pilots from 1989 because they interrupted my planned career but that was long ago.
TIME TO MOVE ON.
We need more succinct, calm and rational voices like Joseph to fix the future. These traits are what our profession is supposedly renowned for. Learn from the past but don't dwell on it.
Mega-orders and too few experienced pilots make for a wonderful scenario for us now. But perpetually rambling on about past ills (no matter how justified) is absolutely futile. Anonymous sniping at colleagues on PPRuNe is exactly what those who try to control you would wish for.
Intelligent and concerted PR media-bites like Josephs are exactly what is needed now and on a continued and persistent basis. The PR damage to managers who try to undermine years of accumulated Australian aviation safety-culture to fatten corporate profits and CEO's wallets is powerful.
Indeed I see Joe's letter as part of a bigger public service. The media howled (correctly) when the Garuda crash killed their own. Why do we then even consider allowing non Australian-trained pilots to fly Australian airliners? Having experienced first-hand the relatively poor standards of many foreign aviation jurisdictions I believe we have a duty to highlight this to innocent Australian passengers who otherwise know no differently. Why should it take more Garuda-type crashes to make this point? And shame on these managers who wish to go down this path solely to further undermine your salaries.
People like Ken Borough and Autobrakes 4, yes you might have valid points BUT IT IS IN THE PAST. I don't much like the pilots from 1989 because they interrupted my planned career but that was long ago.
TIME TO MOVE ON.
We need more succinct, calm and rational voices like Joseph to fix the future. These traits are what our profession is supposedly renowned for. Learn from the past but don't dwell on it.
Mega-orders and too few experienced pilots make for a wonderful scenario for us now. But perpetually rambling on about past ills (no matter how justified) is absolutely futile. Anonymous sniping at colleagues on PPRuNe is exactly what those who try to control you would wish for.
Intelligent and concerted PR media-bites like Josephs are exactly what is needed now and on a continued and persistent basis. The PR damage to managers who try to undermine years of accumulated Australian aviation safety-culture to fatten corporate profits and CEO's wallets is powerful.
Indeed I see Joe's letter as part of a bigger public service. The media howled (correctly) when the Garuda crash killed their own. Why do we then even consider allowing non Australian-trained pilots to fly Australian airliners? Having experienced first-hand the relatively poor standards of many foreign aviation jurisdictions I believe we have a duty to highlight this to innocent Australian passengers who otherwise know no differently. Why should it take more Garuda-type crashes to make this point? And shame on these managers who wish to go down this path solely to further undermine your salaries.
The expression is "cutting off your nose to spite your face" Shakespeare!
The past is relevant. I just can't get past this guys hypocrisy! It's all about the "me" generation.
Quick let's join AIPA, we're getting screwed. It's funny how the screwer becomes the "screwee"! Or what goes around comes around!
The past is relevant. I just can't get past this guys hypocrisy! It's all about the "me" generation.
Quick let's join AIPA, we're getting screwed. It's funny how the screwer becomes the "screwee"! Or what goes around comes around!
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Quick let's join AIPA, we're getting screwed. It's funny how the screwer becomes the "screwee"! Or what goes around comes around! 
With no award in Sin, those accepting this contract will likely be screwed in the future when j* Sin introduce a 'B' scale contract lowering their own pay at contract renewal.
Im sure they will get little sympathy.
Autobrakes4 & Ken Borough
FFS you are doing managements job for them. Divide and conquer. I was as critical about JQ and DJ contracts and the people taking them when they first came out as you but even I can see it solves absolutely nothing harping on about the past. Get over it. To solve what is happening now we need to look to the future and work together as a unified group, not a bunch of bickering school children stuck in the past.
FFS you are doing managements job for them. Divide and conquer. I was as critical about JQ and DJ contracts and the people taking them when they first came out as you but even I can see it solves absolutely nothing harping on about the past. Get over it. To solve what is happening now we need to look to the future and work together as a unified group, not a bunch of bickering school children stuck in the past.
Ineresting insigts,
I have known Mr. Eakins for years and can certainly vouch for his integrity as well as his intelligence. In person he has the same passion, commitment and vocabulary as the article. While it is unfortunate that the terms and conditions aren't what they were 10 years ago, or 10 years before that, or even 10 years before that, but what we can do is change what they will be 10 years from now. Rather than winge about the current state of affairs as we all do, Joe is fighting to improve the future, not only for himself but for all of us.
Upper management has done a wonderful job at getting us to fight amongst ourselves, thereby dispersing our energy from root of the poblems and effectively taking them out of the ring. What Joe is proposing is finally standing side by side
I gladly put my future in Joe's hands and will back the decisions that he makes, I am glad that his voice is heard and that so many agree with what is said.
I have known Mr. Eakins for years and can certainly vouch for his integrity as well as his intelligence. In person he has the same passion, commitment and vocabulary as the article. While it is unfortunate that the terms and conditions aren't what they were 10 years ago, or 10 years before that, or even 10 years before that, but what we can do is change what they will be 10 years from now. Rather than winge about the current state of affairs as we all do, Joe is fighting to improve the future, not only for himself but for all of us.
Upper management has done a wonderful job at getting us to fight amongst ourselves, thereby dispersing our energy from root of the poblems and effectively taking them out of the ring. What Joe is proposing is finally standing side by side
I gladly put my future in Joe's hands and will back the decisions that he makes, I am glad that his voice is heard and that so many agree with what is said.
Well done that man!
P.S To the white rat brigade, stop bitching and moaning about the past. I'm not saying to forget, but you should put it aside as this turn of events will directly affect you too.
It won't be too long before Jetstar will replace you on all but the Kangaroo and Cityflyer routes. Once this transition is complete, the rollers will be out painting the tails red and the bodies white with the real end goal complete. The Qantas brand is far more powerful than Jetstar and the Jetstar brand was only ever created to bypass legacy conditions.
Grow a set and join the fight to protect your current and future career aspirations and conditions.
P.S To the white rat brigade, stop bitching and moaning about the past. I'm not saying to forget, but you should put it aside as this turn of events will directly affect you too.
It won't be too long before Jetstar will replace you on all but the Kangaroo and Cityflyer routes. Once this transition is complete, the rollers will be out painting the tails red and the bodies white with the real end goal complete. The Qantas brand is far more powerful than Jetstar and the Jetstar brand was only ever created to bypass legacy conditions.
Grow a set and join the fight to protect your current and future career aspirations and conditions.
Last edited by The Green Goblin; 12th Oct 2010 at 12:09.
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Never claimed to be Shakespeare.......
Autobrakes4,
The past is relevant for the writing of history books and so we don’t repeat mistakes. Not recognizing the situation we are in and continuing to hold a grudge for a perceived ill to the detriment of yourself and your profession is ignoring history. Please show me how this can help any of us and what your ideas are to stop the off-shoring of jobs.
If it’s all about the ‘Me’ generation then we’re all included because there are Jet* Pilots aged from their 20’s through to their 60’s.
The past is relevant for the writing of history books and so we don’t repeat mistakes. Not recognizing the situation we are in and continuing to hold a grudge for a perceived ill to the detriment of yourself and your profession is ignoring history. Please show me how this can help any of us and what your ideas are to stop the off-shoring of jobs.
If it’s all about the ‘Me’ generation then we’re all included because there are Jet* Pilots aged from their 20’s through to their 60’s.
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You t*ssers harping on about Mainline pilots needing to support their j* brethen or have their careers undercut need a reality check. For anyone who has joined mainline after about mid 2000, there is no career left! 10 years in the company will not get you a RH seat in the 330. Shorthaul pilots have watched their flying evaporate over the last 5 years.
AIPA hasn't been able to protect the pay and conditions of mainline pilots, so good luck with them stopping the rot at J*. Mr Eakins may be a lovely bloke, but he's got NFI!
AIPA hasn't been able to protect the pay and conditions of mainline pilots, so good luck with them stopping the rot at J*. Mr Eakins may be a lovely bloke, but he's got NFI!
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Well done Joe.
We should all support this man. He is intelligent, articulate and is not scared to say what we are all thinking.
Anyone who doesn't understand the content or reasons behind his post are either bot affected or perhaps don't completely comprehend the ramifications of this change in tactics by the airlines (Jetstar escpescially).
We should all support this man. He is intelligent, articulate and is not scared to say what we are all thinking.
Anyone who doesn't understand the content or reasons behind his post are either bot affected or perhaps don't completely comprehend the ramifications of this change in tactics by the airlines (Jetstar escpescially).
Nunc est bibendum
P.S To the white rate brigade, stop bitching and moaning about the past. I'm not saying to forget, but you should put it aside...
What gets forgotten though is that many QF drivers saw this coming a long time before J* crew did. In fact, a long time before many of the current J* crew were even employed by J*. Many QF drivers argued long and hard for pilot unity on this forum even as numerous Impulse/ Jetstar crew gloated in the early days about undermining our pay and conditions and reducing the career prospects that existed at that time for QF crew.
Even as the J* widebody EBA variation was put forwarded many QF crew argued FOR the J* crew that they could do much, much better. We indicated that QF crew wouldn't be taking jobs or promotions from any current J* employee and that we were after a seat at the table. When the quick promotions and payrises (albeit smaller than what they could and should have been) were on the table QF drivers were again ignored and excluded by the JPC and J* crew. I recall J* crew of the time gloating on this forum about their quick promotions onto an international long haul widebody aircraft and how the QF dinosaur was going to a slow and inexorable death.
So, we find ourself in the current day with the QF CEO doing to J* pilots precisely what QF drivers warned would occur a number of years ago unless there was pilot unity.
I'm glad that finally the pilots are beginning to show a united front. I'm glad that the crew to J* who have signed on since QF bought Impulse have realised that the 'golden age' that they thought they were signing on (quick promotions, the 'at least it's better than the $45K I was on in GA) was a smokescreen for continuing to lower the bar even further.
So sure, let's move on from the past and I'll say the same words that I've been saying on PPRUNE since I joined it. Pilot unity is the key. Until we stop seeing each other as the enemy we're doomed. So we'll leave behind the past when many Impulse/ J* crew viewed QF crew as their enemy. I'm thrilled that the majority of J* crew now view QF crew differently to those early days. Perhaps had wiser heads prevailed back in those early dayss we'd be 7-9 years in front of where we are now.
, well actually something that needed to be said. Time to move on i agree.
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ACDU...
i disagree.
All keg is saying is "I told you so" with no facts to back it up!
Generally, in the past i have not disagreed or even bothered to reply to this, as I am not either a JQ or QF pilot, I have however sat back and watched this all unfold.
I WAS offered a JQ position many moons ago, but turned them down.
Whilst this is a many sided debate, what i have seen from observing the last few years is:
1/ IMPULSE pilots wanted to join AIPA ... but AIPA said NO
2/IMPULSE became JETSTAR
3/EVERYONE else in the industry could see that JETSTAR was founded and funded to erode QF terms and conditions..... except QF pilots.
4/QF pilots, to this day STILL believe that QF management will "do the right thing" by them, and that JQ pay is a LONG way off.
5/JQ pilots are have been doing the right thing, by them, but have been shafted by management again, as they do not, and have not formed a UNITED BODY with any backbone..... yet.
6/JQ and QF pilots are blaming anybody but themselves for the current situation. IE "anyone who signs on to the JQ sin terms and conditions is a scab" ...... whereas, in reality, to do so is a HUGE payrise and increase in life expectancy for ANY OZ GA pilot.
Maybe we need to look at GA, and say why is JQ sin or JQ NZ SOOOOOOO fricking attractive??? whereas in reality it is just another bumf$ck with 20$ more per week?
can you REALLY blame the guys and gals who have slogged it out in GA for 3-10 yrs for taking a 100% payrise AND getting "stable" rosters as well as flying more reliable equipment AND not having to pay for jepps renewals/ASIC card costs/CIR renewals??????
the rot started LONG LONG AGO. The new hires are signing on for $80k plus. they work 18 days a month with the opportunity to earn an extra $800 per day..... IF they are lucky enough to be called on a day off.
to work in the TOP END of GA, flying ,MAYBE, a metro or PA31.... you would be on a MAX of $45k ..... with the possibility of earning $$$SFA if you want to work more.there are NO terms and or conditions in GA. there is NO stability or guarantees in rostering. there is NO guarantee that you will still have a job in 3-6 months!!! and yet we blame the GA jock for accepting substandard Terms and conditions, that have been AGREED to but current pilots?
seriously..... put yerself in the position of GA pilot, who has been shafted for 5 years. NEVER been paid more than 600 per week(max), take home, but has to continually save $$$ to pay for the next renewal or Jepps subscription.
HAVE we all forgotten how hard GA is?????
the problem NOW lies NOT with the new recruits..... but with the established bunch who have CONTINUALLLy shown ZERO fortitude or backbone. who have buckled at every management request, and even those who have denied that JQ pilots should be represented by a UNITED QF GROUP pilot body.
SERIOUSLY.... look back to YOUR time in GA and ask yourself, then answer HONESTLY.... would YOU join JQ on 80k with ****ehouse terms and conditions? or stay in GA on 45k, with ZERO terms and conditions??????
who do you now blame for THIS??????
BOTTOM end should be, and should have been looked after a lot better LONG before this ever happened.
i disagree.
All keg is saying is "I told you so" with no facts to back it up!
Generally, in the past i have not disagreed or even bothered to reply to this, as I am not either a JQ or QF pilot, I have however sat back and watched this all unfold.
I WAS offered a JQ position many moons ago, but turned them down.
Whilst this is a many sided debate, what i have seen from observing the last few years is:
1/ IMPULSE pilots wanted to join AIPA ... but AIPA said NO
2/IMPULSE became JETSTAR
3/EVERYONE else in the industry could see that JETSTAR was founded and funded to erode QF terms and conditions..... except QF pilots.
4/QF pilots, to this day STILL believe that QF management will "do the right thing" by them, and that JQ pay is a LONG way off.
5/JQ pilots are have been doing the right thing, by them, but have been shafted by management again, as they do not, and have not formed a UNITED BODY with any backbone..... yet.
6/JQ and QF pilots are blaming anybody but themselves for the current situation. IE "anyone who signs on to the JQ sin terms and conditions is a scab" ...... whereas, in reality, to do so is a HUGE payrise and increase in life expectancy for ANY OZ GA pilot.
Maybe we need to look at GA, and say why is JQ sin or JQ NZ SOOOOOOO fricking attractive??? whereas in reality it is just another bumf$ck with 20$ more per week?
can you REALLY blame the guys and gals who have slogged it out in GA for 3-10 yrs for taking a 100% payrise AND getting "stable" rosters as well as flying more reliable equipment AND not having to pay for jepps renewals/ASIC card costs/CIR renewals??????
the rot started LONG LONG AGO. The new hires are signing on for $80k plus. they work 18 days a month with the opportunity to earn an extra $800 per day..... IF they are lucky enough to be called on a day off.
to work in the TOP END of GA, flying ,MAYBE, a metro or PA31.... you would be on a MAX of $45k ..... with the possibility of earning $$$SFA if you want to work more.there are NO terms and or conditions in GA. there is NO stability or guarantees in rostering. there is NO guarantee that you will still have a job in 3-6 months!!! and yet we blame the GA jock for accepting substandard Terms and conditions, that have been AGREED to but current pilots?
seriously..... put yerself in the position of GA pilot, who has been shafted for 5 years. NEVER been paid more than 600 per week(max), take home, but has to continually save $$$ to pay for the next renewal or Jepps subscription.
HAVE we all forgotten how hard GA is?????
the problem NOW lies NOT with the new recruits..... but with the established bunch who have CONTINUALLLy shown ZERO fortitude or backbone. who have buckled at every management request, and even those who have denied that JQ pilots should be represented by a UNITED QF GROUP pilot body.
SERIOUSLY.... look back to YOUR time in GA and ask yourself, then answer HONESTLY.... would YOU join JQ on 80k with ****ehouse terms and conditions? or stay in GA on 45k, with ZERO terms and conditions??????
who do you now blame for THIS??????
BOTTOM end should be, and should have been looked after a lot better LONG before this ever happened.