Merged: Senate Inquiry
To those guys/gals who have been in this industry for years..............did you really think this 'circus act' inquiry would really go anywhere positively?
'Mr Hat' said it all
It's inevitable that aviation will just be another ordinary job some day.
It's called progress & right or wrong we have to have it but at times one wonders whether it ought to be called 'regress'!
50 years since Yuri was thrust into space, the world took notice back then because it was simply amazing.................now?........just like aviation space travel is common place.
With aviation it had to grow. At first it was dangerous, exciting,glamorous & well respected with heroes almost daily. The public where in awe at pilots, their skills etc giving them almost God like status & the rewards to match it...........now many years latter it too is common place where nobody gives it another thought to travel by air & it's big business............& so an era is coming to an end as we used to know it, such inquiry's/gatherings/meetings as we have been discussing here for ages is just a few final fleeting attempts to keep the mystic alive by the true believers................simply put nobody (or few as in the gen public/pollies) cares anymore, sad really...
Enjoy it whilst you can for the legacy we leave behind for our grandchildren will only be found in the history books.
Wmk2
'Mr Hat' said it all
It's inevitable that aviation will just be another ordinary job some day.
It's called progress & right or wrong we have to have it but at times one wonders whether it ought to be called 'regress'!
50 years since Yuri was thrust into space, the world took notice back then because it was simply amazing.................now?........just like aviation space travel is common place.
With aviation it had to grow. At first it was dangerous, exciting,glamorous & well respected with heroes almost daily. The public where in awe at pilots, their skills etc giving them almost God like status & the rewards to match it...........now many years latter it too is common place where nobody gives it another thought to travel by air & it's big business............& so an era is coming to an end as we used to know it, such inquiry's/gatherings/meetings as we have been discussing here for ages is just a few final fleeting attempts to keep the mystic alive by the true believers................simply put nobody (or few as in the gen public/pollies) cares anymore, sad really...
Enjoy it whilst you can for the legacy we leave behind for our grandchildren will only be found in the history books.
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 14th Apr 2011 at 23:20.
Ben Sandilands latest:
The ‘not the Qantas’ news brought to you by the ABC
Posted: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:41:50 +0000
The ABC has led mainstream media into the Alice-in-Wonderland world of Not Qantas nonsense that Real Qantas has been struggling to reconcile itself with in terms of official statements since a minor incident at Sydney Airport on Wednesday morning.
To quote from that story:
Qantas says the Boeing 737 with the flight number QF50 that made an emergency landing at Sydney Airport on Wednesday was not really a Qantas flight at all.
The plane was flown by wholly owned, New Zealand-based Qantas subsidiary Jetconnect.
We’ve been there for a while now, including yesterday, in relation to the Jetconnect tax and wages dodge involving an allegedly totally independent NZ company that just happens to be completely owned by Qantas and even calls itself The Spirit of Australia.
But the indifference of the mainstream media to anything about Qantas that doesn’t come predigested and Chairman’s Lounge friendly in a press release has at least been given a shake by the national public broadcaster. This is refreshing.
The ‘not the Qantas’ news brought to you by the ABC
Posted: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:41:50 +0000
The ABC has led mainstream media into the Alice-in-Wonderland world of Not Qantas nonsense that Real Qantas has been struggling to reconcile itself with in terms of official statements since a minor incident at Sydney Airport on Wednesday morning.
To quote from that story:
Qantas says the Boeing 737 with the flight number QF50 that made an emergency landing at Sydney Airport on Wednesday was not really a Qantas flight at all.
The plane was flown by wholly owned, New Zealand-based Qantas subsidiary Jetconnect.
We’ve been there for a while now, including yesterday, in relation to the Jetconnect tax and wages dodge involving an allegedly totally independent NZ company that just happens to be completely owned by Qantas and even calls itself The Spirit of Australia.
But the indifference of the mainstream media to anything about Qantas that doesn’t come predigested and Chairman’s Lounge friendly in a press release has at least been given a shake by the national public broadcaster. This is refreshing.
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Qantas flight ?? Jetconnect flight
QANTAS or JETCONNECT 
Well QANTAS - one way it is legal, the other is in conflict with Section 28 of the CAA. The other is simply in conflict with REG. 210/ 206
Come on the legal eagles in the unions, do your homework please - at least draw CASA's attention to this.
CASA is also guilty by not pursuing a matter of public importance [misfeasance again??] - or is it simply big boys and their toys??.
Perhaps Sen. X?? could ask the question.
Well QANTAS - one way it is legal, the other is in conflict with Section 28 of the CAA. The other is simply in conflict with REG. 210/ 206
Come on the legal eagles in the unions, do your homework please - at least draw CASA's attention to this.
CASA is also guilty by not pursuing a matter of public importance [misfeasance again??] - or is it simply big boys and their toys??.
Perhaps Sen. X?? could ask the question.
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Airline codes-J - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I would have thought if the flight was a "Jetconnect" callsign & operated as the airline designator code QNZ. Then it would be a jetconnect flight codesharing for Qantas (QF).
The absence of the QNZ designator & callsign, combined with the conditions of carriage on the QF website stating that QF, QFLink & Jetconnect services are Qantas services pretty much sums it up.
I would have thought if the flight was a "Jetconnect" callsign & operated as the airline designator code QNZ. Then it would be a jetconnect flight codesharing for Qantas (QF).
The absence of the QNZ designator & callsign, combined with the conditions of carriage on the QF website stating that QF, QFLink & Jetconnect services are Qantas services pretty much sums it up.
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QF and JETCONNECT
Have a look at the AOC for JETCONNECT - shows Business name as "QANTAS", however, is this registered in NZ by QANTAS, or by JC.
The issue is the Trades Practices Act, and that there is to be "no Confusion" for the user of a service.
Have a look at the AOC for JETCONNECT - shows Business name as "QANTAS", however, is this registered in NZ by QANTAS, or by JC.
The issue is the Trades Practices Act, and that there is to be "no Confusion" for the user of a service.
When punters fly on a 717 from Cairns, Darwin, Perth etc, they get a red tail and cabin crew dressed like QF. On the boarding pass is a note "operated by National Jet" and I believe the aircraft have some sign writing adjacent to 1L which can be seen on boarding.
Do Jetconnect do these things?
Do Jetconnect do these things?
Not sure about what's written on the aircraft, as it has been several years since I have traveled on a Jetconnect aircraft, however I've never heard the Jetconnect callsign being used. It's always "Qantas XX"
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When punters fly on a 717 from Cairns, Darwin, Perth etc, they get a red tail and cabin crew dressed like QF. On the boarding pass is a note "operated by National Jet" and I believe the aircraft have some sign writing adjacent to 1L which can be seen on boarding.
Do Jetconnect do these things?
Do Jetconnect do these things?
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NZScion,
That's my point!
If it's considered by QF to be a different entity. It should be using (in my opinion) the QNZ designator & a Jetconnect callsign, which it doesn't.
That's my point!
If it's considered by QF to be a different entity. It should be using (in my opinion) the QNZ designator & a Jetconnect callsign, which it doesn't.
It's inevitable that aviation will just be another ordinary job some day.
It's called progress & right or wrong we have to have it but at times one wonders whether it ought to be called 'regress'!
50 years since Yuri was thrust into space, the world took notice back then because it was simply amazing.................now?........just like aviation space travel is common place.
With aviation it had to grow. At first it was dangerous, exciting,glamorous & well respected with heroes almost daily. The public where in awe at pilots, their skills etc giving them almost God like status & the rewards to match it...........now many years latter it too is common place where nobody gives it another thought to travel by air & it's big business............& so an era is coming to an end as we used to know it, such inquiry's/gatherings/meetings as we have been discussing here for ages is just a few final fleeting attempts to keep the mystic alive by the true believers................simply put nobody (or few as in the gen public/pollies) cares anymore, sad really...
Enjoy it whilst you can for the legacy we leave behind for our grandchildren will only be found in the history books.
It's called progress & right or wrong we have to have it but at times one wonders whether it ought to be called 'regress'!
50 years since Yuri was thrust into space, the world took notice back then because it was simply amazing.................now?........just like aviation space travel is common place.
With aviation it had to grow. At first it was dangerous, exciting,glamorous & well respected with heroes almost daily. The public where in awe at pilots, their skills etc giving them almost God like status & the rewards to match it...........now many years latter it too is common place where nobody gives it another thought to travel by air & it's big business............& so an era is coming to an end as we used to know it, such inquiry's/gatherings/meetings as we have been discussing here for ages is just a few final fleeting attempts to keep the mystic alive by the true believers................simply put nobody (or few as in the gen public/pollies) cares anymore, sad really...
Enjoy it whilst you can for the legacy we leave behind for our grandchildren will only be found in the history books.
Although aviation isn't going to be another ordinary job some day, it already is.
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Unfortunate slander, Sunfish
Sunfish at #977:
Senator Xenophon was the first (and possibly still the only) Federal politician to categorically refuse to accept the proferred membership of the Chairman's Lounge. He does not accept upgrades and travels on the cheapest fares, usually at the back of economy.
Sunfish, both your accuracy and intimation in regard to a Senator who has worked tirelessly to make this Inquiry meaningful are neither gracious nor grateful.
Stay Alive,
Nah. Xenophon will lose his Chairmans lounge privileges.
Sunfish, both your accuracy and intimation in regard to a Senator who has worked tirelessly to make this Inquiry meaningful are neither gracious nor grateful.
Stay Alive,
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Smoke and Mirrors
Breakfastburrito at #993:
Well no, he deliberately misled the Senate Inquiry and the quoted $67K was in NZD! How did he mislead them - well, they asked about the NZ so-called cadet contract rate which clearly stated NZD$42,000 for a guaranteed 150 hours per quarter and he told them a different figure based on 850-950 hours per year without clarifying the difference. They could never have made that rate of effort because they had been stood down, coincidentally (?) at 150 hours for the first quarter. They were paid ONLY the guaranteed rate of NZD$10,500 plus allowances (another story!!) for that quarter.
Only after the discomfort of the Senate Inquiry was there a scramble to draft the "always intended" Australian contract, separate from the Jetstar EBA.
Believe me, there is nothing about the profferred contract that I would describe as "real" - its term and conditions, while significantly better financially, reflect the integrity of the management that was so exposed in the preceding weeks. It truly shows BB's adherence to the debt bondage principles that gave birth to the so-called cadet scheme in the first place.
I understand that the management has stated that no future pilot employee will be employed under the EBA...
Hopefully, these folks will continue to attract the adverse publicity they deserve.
Stay Alive
Future prospective cadets will need to be cunning to find out the information. BB stated quite clearly at the inquiry that the cadets would be earning AUD $67K - this is correct until they have the required 500 hours, then they will be shipped off to NZ. BB stated is NZ is where they want them to be. Then, the NZ $42K contract comes into play. So technically he is correct, over a short time scale.
Only after the discomfort of the Senate Inquiry was there a scramble to draft the "always intended" Australian contract, separate from the Jetstar EBA.
Further, a real AUD contract can be plonked down in front of the future cadet, without telling him that this will be for the first 500 hours only.
I understand that the management has stated that no future pilot employee will be employed under the EBA...
Hopefully, these folks will continue to attract the adverse publicity they deserve.
Stay Alive
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Why do we need these so-called cadet schemes?
We used to have cadet schemes that provided alternate pathways to a flying career for those who needed financial assistance or had some special connection with the employer - they were sponsored schemes.
We did not need them because we were short of pilots.
In Europe, however, they extended their cadet (sponsorship) schemes beyond special needs/interest groups because they had no GA industry worth talking about. But they worked out that sponsoring their future employees was not going to work in a low cost carrier environment (regardless of whether they in fact were LCCs or FSCs) and began to explore reducing training costs. So they invented pay for training (P4T) and pay to fly (P2T) schemes to support a dramatic expansion of carriers and capacity.
So then we buggered up the concept here and started down the same P4T and P2F paths - EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE NEVER BEEN SHORT OF SUITABLE PILOTS!
So, what do we do?
I reckon that we declare the 1st of May as the cutoff for any tolerance of so-called cadets paying their way into jobs that would otherwise go to experienced DE pilots. The guys who have been sucked in up till now should be protected, because even they had no chance of seeing how all this has unfolded. But that's the end of the excuses and it should be the end of our tolerance.
Unions, associations, councils, pilot groups whatever you call yourselves, get some cohones and let your management know that a line has been drawn in the sand!
We did not need them because we were short of pilots.
In Europe, however, they extended their cadet (sponsorship) schemes beyond special needs/interest groups because they had no GA industry worth talking about. But they worked out that sponsoring their future employees was not going to work in a low cost carrier environment (regardless of whether they in fact were LCCs or FSCs) and began to explore reducing training costs. So they invented pay for training (P4T) and pay to fly (P2T) schemes to support a dramatic expansion of carriers and capacity.
So then we buggered up the concept here and started down the same P4T and P2F paths - EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE NEVER BEEN SHORT OF SUITABLE PILOTS!
So, what do we do?
I reckon that we declare the 1st of May as the cutoff for any tolerance of so-called cadets paying their way into jobs that would otherwise go to experienced DE pilots. The guys who have been sucked in up till now should be protected, because even they had no chance of seeing how all this has unfolded. But that's the end of the excuses and it should be the end of our tolerance.
Unions, associations, councils, pilot groups whatever you call yourselves, get some cohones and let your management know that a line has been drawn in the sand!
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The guys who have been sucked in up till now should be protected, because even they had no chance of seeing how all this has unfolded.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
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Exactly.
I've run out of sympathy for these SJS sufferers. They're old enough to vote, drink alcohol and become fathers/mothers i.e. fully fledged adult members of society in every other respect.
If they havent got the smarts to read a "contract full of opportunities" that involves long term commitment and poverty and get advice on it before scrambling over themselves to grab that pineapple with both hands then I'm afraid they can suck up the consequences.
Only trouble is, it's not doing the rest of us any good either.
I've run out of sympathy for these SJS sufferers. They're old enough to vote, drink alcohol and become fathers/mothers i.e. fully fledged adult members of society in every other respect.
If they havent got the smarts to read a "contract full of opportunities" that involves long term commitment and poverty and get advice on it before scrambling over themselves to grab that pineapple with both hands then I'm afraid they can suck up the consequences.
Only trouble is, it's not doing the rest of us any good either.
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Qantas says the Boeing 737 with the flight number QF50 that made an emergency landing at Sydney Airport on Wednesday was not really a Qantas flight at all.
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newsensation, if you have this kind of information perhaps you pass it on a REPCON.
What is REPCON?
REPCON is a voluntary confidential reporting scheme. REPCON allows any person who has an aviation safety concern to report it to the ATSB confidentially. Protection of the reporter's identity and any individual referred to in the report is a primary element of the scheme.
REPCON is a voluntary confidential reporting scheme. REPCON allows any person who has an aviation safety concern to report it to the ATSB confidentially. Protection of the reporter's identity and any individual referred to in the report is a primary element of the scheme.
I have just done a booking search, on two different booking sites, and both show QF50 operated by Qantas Airways ... as the flight from Auckland to Sydney.
I checked some other QF destinations on the same booking engines, that I know are code shared, and they show the ... operated by so and so Airlines in the details.
If it looks like ....
If it smells like ....
If it's advertised as ...
I checked some other QF destinations on the same booking engines, that I know are code shared, and they show the ... operated by so and so Airlines in the details.
If it looks like ....
If it smells like ....
If it's advertised as ...