Open Letter to Senator Xenophon

[4dogs]

Give Nick some facts

All,

I reckon this email thing to Nick Xenophon is a good initiative - but it will be less useful if any events are not factual. When you get to deal with the serious business of Senate Enquiries, nobody is interested in rumours and hearsay - only reasonably verifiable bits of relevant info.

I for one am glad that I read this thread - otherwise I wouldn't have read the Skippers thread or the related bits. I imagine that some folks in the FIFO industry would be a little concerned about:

"Two years and 10 months after commencing his Commercial Pilot Training with Fast Track Pilot Training, 21 year old XX of Perth has begun training as a Captain on the Metroliner with Skippers Airlines. Fast Track CEO, Brad Coombe said, "when X came to us in 2006 he had been doing odd jobs as a gardner and was thinking about buying a lawn mowing round to fund his flight training. After much discussion he decided to fund his training via a bank loan. This allowed him to join our course full time. There was much controversy as to whether he could complete the Fast Track course in the prescribed 18 weeks and to his credit - he did! When X joined Skippers with a basic Commercial Pilots Licence & Multi-Engine Instrument Rating, there were some in the industry that were suggesting that this couldn't be done & that he would be stuck as a co-pilot for a long time with little prospect of ever becoming a Captain. X has overcome many hurdles & has coped very well and by all accounts has turned out to be a sound crew member in multi crew pilot operations with Skippers."

It may well be that X is actually a very competent driver, and this is certainly not intended to comment on any one individual, but what worries me is that X may well have been the last person standing in a system that, having exhausted supply, modifies demand by changing the rules of the game. While Senator Xenophon has put the spotlight on airlines, the reality is that the FIFO game is pseudo-airline flight operations anyway!

Maybe the good Senator needs to widen the focus of his concerns - maybe we can get him a flight to Jundee!!

Stay alive

[Popgun]

Spot on 4dogs

[Mr. Hat]

Put your ear plugs in.

FIFO? I really do feel for you genuinely. Why? FIFO and the travelling public really have no idea at all. Its a numbers game. Before too long someone's number is going to be called up. In FIFO well you're in the game all the time travelling to and from the place of work. Let me tell you a story.

Years ago Mrs. Hat comes home and announces she's thinking of a FIFO job as it pays double what her current profession pays in the city. Having worked in the industry I politely (diplomatically) informed her why we didn't need the money that bad.

FIFO operators put tenders in for contracts. Generally this means the company with the lowest bid and the best spin wins the contract. You would think they're all rolling in money because everybody in Mining is making the big bucks right? Wrong.

Paper thin margins as a result of this clever tender process. Have a close read of the EBA's for the pilots and you'll quickly work out why, unless they particularly don't want to move, most of the pilots want out or see it as a stepping stone. In 07' the exodus from these companies was truly amazing. I've never seen anything like it. I saw people that looked like they hadn't started shaving get commands on pretty serious equipment and then bugger off to an Airline. And why wouldn't you leave with the same days off a 9 to 5 office worker gets AND you're working shift work?

Indeed they are shift workers without the rest and penalties. These guys are getting up at 3am day in day out. Sure they get weekends off. But during the week by the time most people are pulling their chair in at the office these dudes have already been awake for 6 hours. Now there's some strong data that highlights the most amazing of revelations: Humans don't perform very well fatigued. They perform even worse when fatigued and working at hours such as those used to transport FIFO workers. Fear not. According to the experts in Congress in the US accidents like the Colgan crash were due to a lack of skills and not that much to do with conditions or fatigue. So we can sleep easy right?.. ..

Have you ever noticed how the aircraft look a bit old and tired. Thats because they are my friend! They're generally so old that most of the time you are travelling on an aircraft whose company is long since gone or the machine is no longer in production. In other words it belongs in a museum. Flying out to airstrips with no radar, no navaids and f-all equipment on board thats going to help them in a pinch.

Of course there are the mining safety audits and the charade that goes on with it. All incredibly highly paid skilled people that analyse every detail. Ohh boy they're running a tight ship! Not in a pink fit my friend, they should stick to the HSE audit. Big business and the blind eye - we shall see if a senate enquiry can get to the real truth behind our sad industry.

[Anthill]

I wonder whether this 21 yo captain know how to use a weather radar.

Properly??

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Mr Hat, you are spot on sir. I used to work in FIFO and it is just as you describe. Don't forget that some of these companies also do some RPT routes, with the same crews that are on min rest, min experience, min support and clapped out aircraft etc. So now Mr and Mrs Joe Average and the kids are sitting in the back of some aeroplane assuming everything is kosher because they paid good money for their ticket with a regional airline. Not quite.......

[Mr. Hat]

Yep and I used the biggest filter I could find. Its certainly not a post aimed at the employees who I think do a bloody remarkable job given their situation - just a nice big reality check for the big money earners that think they're sitting pretty at the back.

Here's another one for the road while I'm on the soap box: Most of the time the guys at the front are making less than the mine site dish pig or the cleaner.

[Wally Mk2]

"Mr hat" well said. The only way something serious will get done about this subject is thru a major airframe loss. Yes I know God forbid but Govt's in general never act 'till after the event. We hear/see it almost daily where regulators 'fix' the problem 'after' the horse has bolted.
Aviation will be no different, it's only a matter of time. Like a toilet roll, the closer it gets to the end the faster it seems to go! Meaning the more the training slips to bare mins, in order to save money the more T&C's are eroded the faster that toilet roll ends

I can see it now. At the Coroners court there sits the Coroner dumbfounded by what led to this disastrous event (plane crash taking out more than a couple of citizens on a PVt flt) where many have perished when he reads what we professional have been saying all along (for years) on forums such as this where training, A/C age, fatigue, rosters, poor T&C's, CEO greed etc etc etc have all been the fuel to feed this fiery end.
I love flying, I love the freedom it gives me, the thrill of doing something that few others (compared to the worlds population) have ever done but I don't love the industry anymore, the industry I feel is self destructing for greed has ruined what was once a revered occupation where people respected pilots & rightly so as it was & still is a dangerous environment that most whom don't fly take for granted, some CEO's included .


Sadly this industry is unfix-able within the current climate of where Money & Safety are entwined, only one of those rules...........

Wmk2

[Popgun]

Optimism and Solutions?

Some fair points made...but rather than bleat, moan and reminisce...

Lets support the Senator's calls for a Senate Enquiry!!!

We are pilots...problem solvers by nature. Surely we're not defeated this easily?

I know I am not.

PG

[unionist1974]

i agree with most posters , lets have a loook at the regs again and hope something good comes of it . But as long as you have folk lining up to to the job , well not much will change .

[breakfastburrito]

unionist, they're only lining up to do the job because the taxpayer is loaning them 99K loan via FEEHELP to undertake the training. How much skin is the operator actually risking? Next to nothing.
The government is underwriting this madness. The taxpayer bears the risk, the operator gets the benefit of reduced wages & expanded labour pool. Classic privatising of profits, socialising the losses. Crony capitalism at its finest.

[teresa green]

Kayboy, I started aged 19 years, with 230 hrs, on a DC 3, (TAA). I was as basically useless as t#ts on a bull. I would not like it to go back to that scene, and nor would I like to see it become the norm. You are basically a accident waiting to happen, and my 230 hrs was bush bashing, no cadet course, no Sim, just me, one Chipmunk, bags of mail, out of Isa, and I lived in a car ( which leaked). I spent 12 months on that DC3 being berated, sworn at, threatened, by the toughest Pilots in the world, the blokes that survived Bomber Command. I can not think of a better training (in that era) for a young pilot, but today it would be totally unacceptable, (more's the pity) . My point is, you have no frecking idea, you have little or no skills, (you might think you have) I soon found out I had exactly none, and yes, of course, the Aircraft are a lot less physical these days, and probably for a computer nerd, a piece of cake, until...........

[OZvandriver]

Goodluck but i dont see this going anywhere....

[Popgun]

Aussies Don't Capitulate That Easily!

Nothing will change with negative, defeatist attitudes like that...

Thankfully for our industry many of us aren't beaten yet and will be bringing pressure to bear on our politicians and our professional associations in order to:

Stop further erosion of aviation safety standards, and

Prevent circumvention of Aussie Industrial Relations legislation via off-shoring of pilot jobs.

Cheers to all those who are passionate enough about these issues to get off their behinds and take positive actions towards resolution.

PG

[Popgun]

Good Turnout in MEL

I was there. I didn't take notes, but here is my recollection...

There was somewhere between 50 and 100 in attendance. Most guys, overwhelmingly, were from QF, with smaller numbers from Jetstar and a few from Virgin Blue and Tiger. Unfortunately, there didn't seem to be any from the Regionals and GA...perhaps to do with the fact that no publicity of the meeting was placed in mainstream media.

Not nearly as many as the Sydney meeting but numbers were expected to be lower for several reasons not least of which was the rapidly unfolding IT fiasco at Virgin Blue...

The tone of the meeting was united, defiant and deeply passionate that our profession had to be rescued from this dangerous path.

There was a feeling that the 2 major issues (Off-shoring and 200 hour FOs) had galvanised the industry now to stop the rot in its tracks. Many guys I spoke with said they hadn't seen this sort of unity in more than 20 years.

An identical no-confidence motion in BB was carried unanimously by the group.

Senator Xenophon was spoken of warmly and considered key to the fight.

Cohesion, unity and collective industry focus were mentioned by all speakers...and considered essential to success.

This aspect was particularly highlighted by the Transport Workers Union speaker who assured the audience that the rest of our aviation industry colleagues (Baggage handlers, FAs, Refuellers, ATCs, Customer Service etc etc) were 100% behind us.

The meeting was advised that management had closed the door on further discussions and so the course ahead meant publicity campaigns and/or legal challenges. AIPA's legal counsel felt that an effective publicity campaign was the smarter choice.

Further, there was some explanation from a Jetstar pilot regarding the 'September to Remember' campaign. He said that the success of this campaign would not be known until the data for September had been analysed down the track but that he would not be surprised if a lot of efficiencies disappeared as individual pilots ceased going beyond what they were contracted to do.

The legal guy confirmed that doing just 'what you are paid to do, and no more' was acting within the law and could not be seen as an illegal industrial action.

A few free bevvies were had by all after the formal meeting and everyone I spoke to felt that the meeting was a success. It continued the momentum of the Sydney meeting...and there was talk of perhaps another meeting, the next one in BrisVegas.

PG

[Centaurus]

I spent 12 months on that DC3 being berated, sworn at, threatened, by the toughest Pilots in the world, the blokes that survived Bomber Command. I can not think of a better training (in that era) for a young pilot,

I think you need to divest yourself of the rose-tinted glasses. It was precisely because of those being berated, sworn at and threatened attitudes by so called "captains" that CRM and it's ilk was brought into the training system.

Are you telling me that a working environment where the boss can make dirty passes at his female employee, swear at her perceived lack of competence, act the tough John Wayne captain of movie star fame, is seriously conducive to good training? Sounds like you may have been the victim of Stockholme Syndrome?

I flew four engine bombers at Townsville. Albeit, thank goodness, after the war. Yet the former wartime captains I was privileged to crew with were the very opposite to the cretans you were caught up with.

The pilots I crewed with in the 1953 era were in general reasonably sound pilots (with the odd exception) and none I knew were rude, shouters or generally mean bastards to me or my fellow Sergeant copilots. This obnoxious attitude you struck (and enjoyed?) in those long ago days, seems to be peculiar only to gold braided civilian airline captains where company and union seniority ruled and new first officers were treated as a mere bum in the RH seat. I for one never struck these types in the RAAF. Their lights would have been punched out after hours.

Some people (pilots) may learn more when screamed at by bullies on the flight deck. Bully for them Personally I have nothing but sheer contempt for that "style" of captaincy which eventually many years later cost the lives of over 500 innocent passengers at Tenerife.

In later years, I met a couple of these idiot captains who were legends in their own minds, when I spent a few days doing an F28 conversion with Ansett Airlines of West Australia (formerly McRobertson Miller Airlines). These nutters were loathed by their own first officers for just the same habits displayed in your loving description of the hardened "veterans" you crewed with at 250 hours.

Apologies for the rant - nothing personal but screaming skulls on the flight deck get right up my hairy nostrils.
Cent

[Propjet88]

Just read the US Senate Bill - 5900. Very long but well worth a scan as the 1500 hours is only one of many significant changes. Mandating multi - crew skills training is another, so is a review of "commuting". Be careful what you wish for if anyone suggests copying it here holus bolus.
By the way in section 209/216 it makes provision for "academic credit" to reduce the 1500 hours.
Fly safe
PJ