Nick Xenophon - The most important person in the future of Australian Aviation
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I know what you are saying. However with proper management, this wont happen. likewise, even with datal seniority, due process can easily be circumvented by a dysfunctional managment. I've seen it all before..
The fact that DS brings an artificial barrier to employment choices means that our T&Cs are degraded should be sufficient reason to move to a promotion by merit system.
Further, it is an inherant contadiction to say on one hand, all applicants must pass a certain standard, however, Mates Of The Boss some how avoid that standard. Either a standard exists and is universally applied, or it does not.
And no, it is more detrimental to safety that management cannot , by reasons of DS, select the best people for the job of Command. DS does nothing but support the perpetuation of mediocrity.
The fact that DS brings an artificial barrier to employment choices means that our T&Cs are degraded should be sufficient reason to move to a promotion by merit system.
Further, it is an inherant contadiction to say on one hand, all applicants must pass a certain standard, however, Mates Of The Boss some how avoid that standard. Either a standard exists and is universally applied, or it does not.
And no, it is more detrimental to safety that management cannot , by reasons of DS, select the best people for the job of Command. DS does nothing but support the perpetuation of mediocrity.
Last edited by Anthill; 21st Sep 2010 at 05:47.
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Funily or not funily enough just about every pilot thats been involved in a hull loss must have passed a check within the last 6 months. Unless they were operating illegally of course.
So if you pass the checks does this mean that you'll never have an accident. All you need is the icence and away you go.
So if you pass the checks does this mean that you'll never have an accident. All you need is the icence and away you go.
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Typical.
If you cannot employ rational debate, resort to name calling. Evidently you possess neither the intellect or substance of argument for reasoned debate.
NEXT!
If you cannot employ rational debate, resort to name calling. Evidently you possess neither the intellect or substance of argument for reasoned debate.
NEXT!
Interestingly enough, it is the companies that are against seniority whilst the pilots fight for it. Unfortunately, this little detour in the topic has the potential to derail it. Seniority is worthy of its own topic but it is not important enough to ruin this one.
I've been around for a long time and haven't seen much evidence that datal seniority causes a greater occurrence low standard F/Os being promoted to Captain. Achieving and maintaining high standards is required to make and hold a command under seniority systems regardless of time served. Of course I can't vouch for every company out there but the ones I've worked for have professional and fair check and training systems in place. It is often the highly motivated or selfish types who try to corrupt C & T from both outside and inside the system. As we have learned from CRM and experience, raw ability is not the only determinate for good pilots whether in the left or right seats. I've seen more evidence of people being promoted above their experience or ability when the seniority system is ignored. Relying on management to choose candidates for promotion 'on merit' is the real naivety in our present aviation climate. Seniority tends to iron out the manipulative moves of the over ambitious or compliant command applicants. The time spent in the co-pilot seat while waiting for your number to come up is invaluable. It not only allows knowledge to build but gives time for weaknesses to appear. Experience, training and high standards make for competent air crew. Seeing a Captain 'struggle' in a particular situation can't simply be sheeted home to datal seniority. (Back to CRM school quickly if you think that!)
However there will always be a problem with changing jobs under a seniority system. A fact of life. Good reason to plan for the long term in choosing your employer. Gaining quick endorsements and promotion by taking low paid positions or with shonky operators (or both) is often a recipe for long term grief. A 'quick command now' may not make for a full career no matter how 'gifted' a pilot may be.
However there will always be a problem with changing jobs under a seniority system. A fact of life. Good reason to plan for the long term in choosing your employer. Gaining quick endorsements and promotion by taking low paid positions or with shonky operators (or both) is often a recipe for long term grief. A 'quick command now' may not make for a full career no matter how 'gifted' a pilot may be.
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Ever since large government departments and businesses bought in Human Resources specialists, the focus is on the Head of HR to make their budget.
Doing this, they screw the very last cent out of negotiation so they can achieve their bonus or meet their "KPI".
I have sat around too many meetings listening to HR managers say they are happy with current "levels" of safety, "why do you need more resources?"
Doing this, they screw the very last cent out of negotiation so they can achieve their bonus or meet their "KPI".
I have sat around too many meetings listening to HR managers say they are happy with current "levels" of safety, "why do you need more resources?"
The reason ? Accountant CEO's and HR jerks with no concept of reality.
Gobbledock is right, Safety Managers are petrified of revealing the true picture of what is happening, they consequently underate events, so that thier "KPI" is not busted
I'm with Mr.Hat, I pray that I will be out of this industry sipping on a coldie on Stradbroke Island fishing among the breakers when the report comes over the radio that the the holes have lined up, Professor Reason is correct again and a smoking hole is all that remains of a once recognisable aircraft full of passengers.
I don't want this to happen, but the block of cheese is growing.
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Sure Anthill, get rid of datal seniority and get the cock$ucker$ in the LH seat instead. That's the sort of people that populate JQ management, mostly former AN management, taking care of the buddies, one even the 'empty suit/mirror man' in Melbourne trying to get out of his SQ contract so that he can come back and take a DEC at JQ!! That's what will happen.
Datal seniority means no more than being given a chance in order of seniority based on date of joining. The standard must still be attained/maintained.
Datal seniority means no more than being given a chance in order of seniority based on date of joining. The standard must still be attained/maintained.
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The more I read, the more mortified I become. Us old blokes thought we were passing on a solid, safe system that was engineered over the years, for you young blokes, instead it is being torn down. If ever there was a reason for you blokes to unite under one banner it is now, if you don't, I can see it will take a hull loss to bring it before the public, and that is one hull loss too many. Very sad for us ol fellas who took such pride in our job, our aircraft, our safety records, the way of the world I guess.
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Back to the top.
Hi guys the thread is about Nick Xenophon and what his actions might do for the industry. Lets try and not get it locked! Understand cadets/seniority debate but lets focus on improving our industry.
This is the time - its now or never. Time for some unity. That includes engineers ATC etc.
This is the time - its now or never. Time for some unity. That includes engineers ATC etc.
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Don't worry TG, just the lads letting off some steam and a bit of pent up testosterone, it happens.
The real villains are the CEO's and/or senior managers in today's aviation environment. The good ol days when people like Reg Ansett worked and breathed the business and was hands on are gone. (please do not turn this thread into an Ansett bashing, I am using Reg as an example, and yes, I know he wasn't perfect).
Today's CEO has limited vision that sits within a small field - $$$$.
They don't understand what constitutes real risk, they are experts at reactive management only, they don't listen to the experts within their organisation, rather they prefer to listen to their bank accounts creak and groan under sufficient weight, they are happy to attain to minimum safety benchmarks and pissweak entry control standards rather than strive to achieve a higher level of safety with higher benchmarks and goals.
I guess the upside to all this is that in this modern day and age responsibility can be delegated, but not accountability. So if a large aicraft does pancake itself eventually with loss of life I will look forward to seeing the look on the accountable CEO's face as he stares down the barrell of a jail sentence !
The real villains are the CEO's and/or senior managers in today's aviation environment. The good ol days when people like Reg Ansett worked and breathed the business and was hands on are gone. (please do not turn this thread into an Ansett bashing, I am using Reg as an example, and yes, I know he wasn't perfect).
Today's CEO has limited vision that sits within a small field - $$$$.
They don't understand what constitutes real risk, they are experts at reactive management only, they don't listen to the experts within their organisation, rather they prefer to listen to their bank accounts creak and groan under sufficient weight, they are happy to attain to minimum safety benchmarks and pissweak entry control standards rather than strive to achieve a higher level of safety with higher benchmarks and goals.
I guess the upside to all this is that in this modern day and age responsibility can be delegated, but not accountability. So if a large aicraft does pancake itself eventually with loss of life I will look forward to seeing the look on the accountable CEO's face as he stares down the barrell of a jail sentence !
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Today's CEO has limited vision that sits within a small field - $$$$.
They don't understand what constitutes real risk, they are experts at reactive management only, they don't listen to the experts within their organisation, rather they prefer to listen to their bank accounts creak and groan under sufficient weight, they are happy to attain to minimum safety benchmarks and pissweak entry control standards rather than strive to achieve a higher level of safety with higher benchmarks and goals.
I guess the upside to all this is that in this modern day and age responsibility can be delegated, but not accountability. So if a large aicraft does pancake itself eventually with loss of life I will look forward to seeing the look on the accountable CEO's face as he stares down the barrell of a jail sentence !
They don't understand what constitutes real risk, they are experts at reactive management only, they don't listen to the experts within their organisation, rather they prefer to listen to their bank accounts creak and groan under sufficient weight, they are happy to attain to minimum safety benchmarks and pissweak entry control standards rather than strive to achieve a higher level of safety with higher benchmarks and goals.
I guess the upside to all this is that in this modern day and age responsibility can be delegated, but not accountability. So if a large aicraft does pancake itself eventually with loss of life I will look forward to seeing the look on the accountable CEO's face as he stares down the barrell of a jail sentence !
("But, your worship, I employ all these "Professionals" to screw up & carry the can for me".)
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Thank you Flying fox for a lucid post.
I think that the issue of datal seniority is relevant here for 2 reasons:
1) It is a widely embraced promotional system which often prevents the most suitable candidates for being selected (which means that safety is not optimised-Senator Xenaphon should know about this) and
2) DS forms a de-facto regulatory barrier to the movement of labour and thus has the net effect of keeping our salaries lower.
Yes. For these reasons, people who are dataly by-passed should have no issues when promotion-by-merit upgrades people with superior experience levels who started with a company more recently.
It is better for pilots with lower levels of experience to spend more time doing their apprentiship (here we seem to agree) rather than rush into the Left Seat whisttheir aeronautical skills and knowledge remain undeveloped.
I think that the issue of datal seniority is relevant here for 2 reasons:
1) It is a widely embraced promotional system which often prevents the most suitable candidates for being selected (which means that safety is not optimised-Senator Xenaphon should know about this) and
2) DS forms a de-facto regulatory barrier to the movement of labour and thus has the net effect of keeping our salaries lower.
The time spent in the co-pilot seat while waiting for your number to come up is invaluable. It not only allows knowledge to build but gives time for weaknesses to appear. Experience, training and high standards make for competent air crew.
It is better for pilots with lower levels of experience to spend more time doing their apprentiship (here we seem to agree) rather than rush into the Left Seat whisttheir aeronautical skills and knowledge remain undeveloped.
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Datal Seniority not only lowers the standard of our industry (here we are unique) but also serves to erode our Terms & Condidtions.
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Thanks for your highly reasoned input Psychojoe. It is invaluable. I might suggest that further debate on this issue is best left to the Grown-ups.
Run along and play, now.
Run along and play, now.
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Anthill diverts the flow
good job - it was really good to see how easy it is to invoke a a distraction so that the thread becomes a "blue shirt" argument
I just wish the fish would bite so well when I'm out on the boat!!!!