AIPA V QF Jetconnect
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Yeah we all have to feed our family. Jetconnect may get a large pay rise or be made redundant. There are F/Os in QF with 10 years plus time on 737 and still can't get a command because there career and aspirations have been sold to lower bidders. They also deserve just and fair treatment. Its not about the money but about what's right ethical and fair. Its very interesting to note that now the sub groups of pilots within the Qantas group are now being screwed by management and everybody feels threatened about what the future may bring. Nothing like threatening your livelihood to distract you from operating safely. How far QF pushes this is probably a calculated guess. I have seen these distractions on the flight deck first hand and its definitely not an optimum environment for safety. So if I am flying with somebody who has a major gripe about how their career has been sold out from underneath them, why am I going to question a few hundred extra kilos of fuel or if they want to stop by for a coffee before preflight. I want to do the right thing by our profession but only when we are treated with respect. So the next time some middle management tosser wants a jumpseat then asks inane questions about the operation whilst simultaneously boasting about their manipulated staff travel category, Piss Off. You distract me and my mate from doing our jobs safely.
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going to question a few hundred extra kilos of fuel or if they want to stop by for a coffee before preflight. I want to do the right thing by our profession but only when we are treated with respect.
The debate around the rise and rise of low cost carriers is an interesting one. The number of jobs within the industry that have been driven from this growth is quite credible. What equivalent number would have been generated if we were still to be operating within the legacy system?
What's the answer? Management are just trying to shaw up the company. Belief that Joyce is trying to screw everyone (I think) is unfounded. He needs a job just as we all do, and if QF was to go broke on his watch (and it always could), then he would be lucky to get a job in the mail room.
Lets put aside the traditional adversarial relationships and identify and work through the issues as professionals - lets use our lateral thinking caps or GRADE even, to develop a workable solution for everyone.
Fair point oxidant.
I suppose what it does highlight is the continual impact on careers that the qantas management strategy has. Unfortunately, how do we stop the continual slide to oblivion? And I don't believe this is just directed at mainline, it's directed at every pilot group. Because once one group is buried they will move onto the next one. They already have wrt the way the jetstar operation is unfolding. Everyone has mouths to feed and the ramifications of an AIPA victory on this issue and the impact on the jetconnect guys and girls is another important point to consider. We simply cannot be just happy with a win in the courts if that then leads to trouble for the people in jetconnect.
Otherwise the qantas management group will simply find another way to screw the segmented pilot groups.
I suppose what it does highlight is the continual impact on careers that the qantas management strategy has. Unfortunately, how do we stop the continual slide to oblivion? And I don't believe this is just directed at mainline, it's directed at every pilot group. Because once one group is buried they will move onto the next one. They already have wrt the way the jetstar operation is unfolding. Everyone has mouths to feed and the ramifications of an AIPA victory on this issue and the impact on the jetconnect guys and girls is another important point to consider. We simply cannot be just happy with a win in the courts if that then leads to trouble for the people in jetconnect.
Otherwise the qantas management group will simply find another way to screw the segmented pilot groups.
This court action is against the actions of Qantas management - not against the JitConnect crews. If AIPA is successful and QF is forced to pay JitConnect crews the same salary (and T's & C's) as its mainline B737 crews, then it will still be cheaper for Qantas to crew most of the trans Tasman flying with NZ based crews (due to no accomodation and allowances required with the daily flying program originating just after 6am NZ time). Therefore, I don't see any cause for alarm from any NZ based crews, they should be behind AIPA on this as they may get a substantial payrise. The effect of an AIPA win would be to stop Qantas, Jetstar and many other corporations from setting up offshore labour companies to employ workers performing jobs in Oz. This is why the ACTU is fully behind AIPA in the conduct of the court case.
An AIPA win would place some restrictions on QF management efforts to marginalise the existing mainline pilot group and thus allow some career progression.
The Jetstar pilots based in NZ & flying trans Tasman routes would also get a payrise up to Jetstar Oz rates. This is a very important case which should have the support of all pilots in the Australasian region.
An AIPA win would place some restrictions on QF management efforts to marginalise the existing mainline pilot group and thus allow some career progression.
The Jetstar pilots based in NZ & flying trans Tasman routes would also get a payrise up to Jetstar Oz rates. This is a very important case which should have the support of all pilots in the Australasian region.
Posted by Rescue 1
Lets put aside the traditional adversarial relationships and identify and work through the issues as professionals - lets use our lateral thinking caps or GRADE even, to develop a workable solution for everyone.
Lets put aside the traditional adversarial relationships and identify and work through the issues as professionals - lets use our lateral thinking caps or GRADE even, to develop a workable solution for everyone.
The best result here would be the the Jetconnect pilots wages to be on par with their mainline counterparts, then see how this result could help Jetstar. & Virgin pilots.
It is frustrating to hear Jetconnect pilots complaining about this action. AIPA is using funds from its members who have lost flying and promotional opportunities to pay for this action. I understand Jetconnect pilots are frustrated about J* taking thier NZ domestic flying, but Jetconnect has done the exactly same thing to Qantas mainline. You guys really have nothing to complain about here!
Like many people have said, this action is something that should bring pilots together, it not only affects Qantas but in a big way Virgin as well. It may finally be a barrier to stop the race to the bottom that is ruining our industry and careers. As pilots we can't stop others doing our flying for less, so we may as well use some legislation to do it for us.
It would be good to finally get a win on the board! Its about time.
It is frustrating to hear Jetconnect pilots complaining about this action. AIPA is using funds from its members who have lost flying and promotional opportunities to pay for this action. I understand Jetconnect pilots are frustrated about J* taking thier NZ domestic flying, but Jetconnect has done the exactly same thing to Qantas mainline. You guys really have nothing to complain about here!
Like many people have said, this action is something that should bring pilots together, it not only affects Qantas but in a big way Virgin as well. It may finally be a barrier to stop the race to the bottom that is ruining our industry and careers. As pilots we can't stop others doing our flying for less, so we may as well use some legislation to do it for us.
It would be good to finally get a win on the board! Its about time.
Is it impolitic to observe that it's not the NZ based pilots (JetConnect, Pacific Blue and Jetstar NZ alike) who are attempting to bring their pay and conditions up to the majority standard but rather it's the Australian based unions who are attempting to stop our cheaper colleagues tangibly eroding our work conditions?
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What are the implications of an AIAP win? Or a Qantas win?
Auzzie pay still within the Jetconnect Brand? The closure of the Jetconnect with 100 odd pilots out of work? An Auckland base within the Mainline brand? No change at all? Jetstar takeover?
Lets think about the consequences people...
Auzzie pay still within the Jetconnect Brand? The closure of the Jetconnect with 100 odd pilots out of work? An Auckland base within the Mainline brand? No change at all? Jetstar takeover?
Lets think about the consequences people...
Originally Posted by spinner69
What are the implications of an AIAP win? Or a Qantas win?
Auzzie pay still within the Jetconnect Brand? The closure of the Jetconnect with 100 odd pilots out of work? An Auckland base within the Mainline brand? No change at all? Jetstar takeover?
Lets think about the consequences people...
Auzzie pay still within the Jetconnect Brand? The closure of the Jetconnect with 100 odd pilots out of work? An Auckland base within the Mainline brand? No change at all? Jetstar takeover?
Lets think about the consequences people...
that said, I don't believe there is a desire to see these guys out of work, just to stop the rot - maybe a payrise for the boys or you never know - maybe another branch to the Y
But you could be right about the jetstar takeover
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Probably been shown before, but appropriate..
Actually Hempy, I think not!
Ladies and Gentlemen I am a Jetconnect pilot and proud of it!
When I was flying with Talair nigh on 30 years ago, the composition of the airline was about 45% Aussies, 45% Kiwis with the rest made up of a mixture of PNG Nationals, Canadians, South Africians and a few other Nationality's as well. We all got on extremely well and I don't have a bad word to say about any of them! Easily some of the best years of my life. You knew you were alive and actually flew your aircraft!
I have found that pilot's generally are a great group with a common interest/love that crosses most boundary's like no other.
When the " Hungry Beast" first came out and I viewed it, I got a laugh out of it like most others. "Hungry Beast" was made to highlight a situation in a humourous way, which it does well!
The problem I have now, is that it is being used as a personal affront to all the good people at Jetconnect who are just doing their jobs! This along with the deliberate misspelling of Jetconnect, the unnecessary comments on the RT which only other pilots can hear, the innuendo that we are less professional/safe than Mainline are some other examples!
This Ladies and Gentleman, is truly unprofessional behaviour!
Jetconnect staff are just doing their jobs to the best of their ability, just as you are or were before you were alienated by the current situation!
I attended a meeting a couple of days ago with the heads of AIPA and AFAP. After discussions I left with the feeling that we had much common ground and that working together was the way to go!
Paraphrasing some key points already made here and on other forums,
Jetconnect pilots understand what you are going through as it has happened to them!
I think most, if not all, are quitely supportive of your cause!
This has been evident by a mostly dignified silence in the face of the above mentioned occurrances! Those that have spoken out are passionate people, just as many of you are!
Jetconnect has employed Mainline staff in the past and would probably do so again!
Whilst Jetconnect is a New Zealand company any Austrailian pilot can work for it if they so desire, with at least half a dozen doing so at the moment! New Zealand and Austrailia are unique in the fact that licence and lifestyle along with ability to cross each other borders to work are a right! Quite a different situation to heading off too Asia or wherever!
We most certainly are not your "Mortal enemy" as has been alluded to else where, {except on the sports field where the is no greater thrill than watching our teams do battle!} We are infact your closest friends/nieghbours!
We {Jetconnect } are just one of the Puppets being used by the Puppetmaster in this ongoing battle!
So to summarise,
We are all professionals doing our jobs! Please keep it this way!
Unity is and always will be the best way forward in these situations!
By all means have at the Puppetmaster but bashing the puppet gets you nowhere and is a waste of energy and resources!
I will continue, as always, to say hello to my fellow aviators!
Best Regards
Wideglider.
Actually Hempy, I think not!
Ladies and Gentlemen I am a Jetconnect pilot and proud of it!
When I was flying with Talair nigh on 30 years ago, the composition of the airline was about 45% Aussies, 45% Kiwis with the rest made up of a mixture of PNG Nationals, Canadians, South Africians and a few other Nationality's as well. We all got on extremely well and I don't have a bad word to say about any of them! Easily some of the best years of my life. You knew you were alive and actually flew your aircraft!
I have found that pilot's generally are a great group with a common interest/love that crosses most boundary's like no other.
When the " Hungry Beast" first came out and I viewed it, I got a laugh out of it like most others. "Hungry Beast" was made to highlight a situation in a humourous way, which it does well!
The problem I have now, is that it is being used as a personal affront to all the good people at Jetconnect who are just doing their jobs! This along with the deliberate misspelling of Jetconnect, the unnecessary comments on the RT which only other pilots can hear, the innuendo that we are less professional/safe than Mainline are some other examples!
This Ladies and Gentleman, is truly unprofessional behaviour!
Jetconnect staff are just doing their jobs to the best of their ability, just as you are or were before you were alienated by the current situation!
I attended a meeting a couple of days ago with the heads of AIPA and AFAP. After discussions I left with the feeling that we had much common ground and that working together was the way to go!
Paraphrasing some key points already made here and on other forums,
Jetconnect pilots understand what you are going through as it has happened to them!
I think most, if not all, are quitely supportive of your cause!
This has been evident by a mostly dignified silence in the face of the above mentioned occurrances! Those that have spoken out are passionate people, just as many of you are!
Jetconnect has employed Mainline staff in the past and would probably do so again!
Whilst Jetconnect is a New Zealand company any Austrailian pilot can work for it if they so desire, with at least half a dozen doing so at the moment! New Zealand and Austrailia are unique in the fact that licence and lifestyle along with ability to cross each other borders to work are a right! Quite a different situation to heading off too Asia or wherever!
We most certainly are not your "Mortal enemy" as has been alluded to else where, {except on the sports field where the is no greater thrill than watching our teams do battle!} We are infact your closest friends/nieghbours!
We {Jetconnect } are just one of the Puppets being used by the Puppetmaster in this ongoing battle!
So to summarise,
We are all professionals doing our jobs! Please keep it this way!
Unity is and always will be the best way forward in these situations!
By all means have at the Puppetmaster but bashing the puppet gets you nowhere and is a waste of energy and resources!
I will continue, as always, to say hello to my fellow aviators!
Best Regards
Wideglider.
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Wideglider,
If you were flying an aircraft in Jetconnect livery not on previously mainline routes there would be no problem. If you were to be integrated into Qantas mainline as a new branch of the "Y" that may be a solution. While you [as a company] are undercutting our jobs then there is a problem.
There are fine people and idiots in all these companies.
If you were flying an aircraft in Jetconnect livery not on previously mainline routes there would be no problem. If you were to be integrated into Qantas mainline as a new branch of the "Y" that may be a solution. While you [as a company] are undercutting our jobs then there is a problem.
There are fine people and idiots in all these companies.
Wideglider:
This Ladies and Gentleman, is truly unprofessional behaviour!
......
We are all professionals doing our jobs! Please keep it this way!
With the greatest of respect Wideglider, you are either a troll or sadly disillusioned with your plea to "be professional".
The most common management ploy in attacking pilots is to appeal to their sense of professionalism which, considering pilot Egos, is an extremely effective tactic against someone who aspires to wear a uniform.
I say, as a former professional engineer in an airline, that we consistently got trodden on by management using this mantra at a time when LAME and other unions were behaving like junkyard dogs in wages negotiations to the point where we ended up paid little more than baggage handlers.
To put it another way, take "professionalism" and stick it up your backside. Management sniggers at you when you bite on this argument! You want to take a leaf out of the CFMEU negotiating handbook, and I mean it.
To put it yet another way; Surgeons and Barristers are also "Professional" do you see them taking pay cuts? Do you see little twenty something Asians who can't speak English and purchased their university degree operating on patients? You are supposed to operate to standards, demand the same pay for operating to them as others.
Don't be fooled, when push comes to shove, use your industrial muscle to the fullest of your ability and don't hold back one little bit. You are fighting for your family future, ot some fart arsed concept of "professionalism". As was said in the movie Jerry Mcguire; "show me the money"! All else is BS.
This Ladies and Gentleman, is truly unprofessional behaviour!
......
We are all professionals doing our jobs! Please keep it this way!
The most common management ploy in attacking pilots is to appeal to their sense of professionalism which, considering pilot Egos, is an extremely effective tactic against someone who aspires to wear a uniform.
I say, as a former professional engineer in an airline, that we consistently got trodden on by management using this mantra at a time when LAME and other unions were behaving like junkyard dogs in wages negotiations to the point where we ended up paid little more than baggage handlers.
To put it another way, take "professionalism" and stick it up your backside. Management sniggers at you when you bite on this argument! You want to take a leaf out of the CFMEU negotiating handbook, and I mean it.
To put it yet another way; Surgeons and Barristers are also "Professional" do you see them taking pay cuts? Do you see little twenty something Asians who can't speak English and purchased their university degree operating on patients? You are supposed to operate to standards, demand the same pay for operating to them as others.
Don't be fooled, when push comes to shove, use your industrial muscle to the fullest of your ability and don't hold back one little bit. You are fighting for your family future, ot some fart arsed concept of "professionalism". As was said in the movie Jerry Mcguire; "show me the money"! All else is BS.
do you see them taking pay cuts?
A mate who I used to fly charter with in WA is a year one F/O with them and his starting salary is 10k more than the NZ average household salary and nearly double the NZ average salary.
The pay rates look quite low if you're in Ausi, on Ausi conditions, but if you are a Kiwi living in NZ they don't ook so bad. They are in the same ballpark as Pac Blue and Air NZ.
Also,
You are supposed to operate to standards, demand the same pay for operating to them as others.
If you were flying an aircraft in Jetconnect livery not on previously mainline routes there would be no problem.
Imagine if AirNZ offered a base in Sydney on money a few grand less PA than QF mainline,and anyone could apply, Kiwis or Ausis, and operated on the Tasman. AirNZ guys would get upset at the loss of flying, but Ausi's flying Metros in the wee hours would crawl all over themselves for the job. It would seem much better than Jetstar (as it does for the Jetconnect guys). Now you might say "ahhh but only the spineless w@ankers", well I put it to you that it's very easy not to be one of those if you were fortunate enough to be employed with QF mainline, and that if you hadn't been accepted you too might join the Sydney AirNZ base and enjoy a legitimate job in your home town that pays industry standard.
The fight is with legislation and Management, not pilots.
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If you were flying an aircraft in Jetconnect livery not on previously mainline routes there would be no problem. If you were to be integrated into Qantas mainline as a new branch of the "Y" that may be a solution. While you [as a company] are undercutting our jobs then there is a problem.
Now the Kiwis are taking over the Aussies flying on previous Q mainline routes at substantially lower rates than previously done by the mainline pilots?
This sounds like full circle type stuff to me? Or have I completely missed something here?
It seems Wideglider is bang on the money, we are all working together professionally in the industry........... to screw each other over! And the puppeteers are having a ball!
Isn't this a little ironic?
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Sunfish, I most certainly am not a Troll so therefore by your reasoning I must be sadly disillusional! With respect I sincerely hope you are wrong!
My plea is not to be Professional. It is to not be Unprofessional! Semantics perhaps, but I see a difference!
My post was and is directed to my fellow pilots, one Professional to another.
Tankengine, I fully accept and acknowledge the problem as created by management, not the pilots. It is the personal attacks I have issue with!
I agree with your last statement,
"There are fine people and idiots in all these companies!"
I just hope there are a lot more "fine people" than "idiots"!
Framer, Thankyou for getting it!
Your final sentence sums up my entire argument and if I may just amend the ending in red!
The fight is with legislation and Management, not between the pilots.
May I just finish with the fact that in making my post I was not looking at get into a protracted arguement with anyone. You will either get it and agree, or you will not!
If there are any pertinent questions or points I will endeavour to answer them, otherwise I shall resume being a very interested observer!
My plea is not to be Professional. It is to not be Unprofessional! Semantics perhaps, but I see a difference!
My post was and is directed to my fellow pilots, one Professional to another.
Tankengine, I fully accept and acknowledge the problem as created by management, not the pilots. It is the personal attacks I have issue with!
I agree with your last statement,
"There are fine people and idiots in all these companies!"
I just hope there are a lot more "fine people" than "idiots"!
Framer, Thankyou for getting it!
Your final sentence sums up my entire argument and if I may just amend the ending in red!
The fight is with legislation and Management, not between the pilots.
May I just finish with the fact that in making my post I was not looking at get into a protracted arguement with anyone. You will either get it and agree, or you will not!
If there are any pertinent questions or points I will endeavour to answer them, otherwise I shall resume being a very interested observer!
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Fruet,
You just don't get it do you? Qantas has been flying across the pond WAY more than the 10 years since 2001!
I have only been flying for QF since 1988 but we were certainly doing it then!
The way I understand it Jetconnect was started for NZ domestic flying after the previous airline went tits up. Qantas mainline 737s did the flying on a temporary basis until Jetconnect set up [not stealing anybodies flying]
Jetconnect I would expect employed whoever applied! I know it has/had a mix of Aussies and Kiwis, some with lots of previous experience [some ex Ansetts, both Aust and NZ] and some new starters.
The issue is with QF management undercutting mainline with this airline which now DOES NOT OPERATE DOMESTICALLY IN NZ but simply flies across the pond on old mainline routes.
The Jetconnect crews have been screwed by QF management closing them down domestically and starting Jetstar NZ.
And for those who say it is a NZ company "So There" just tell me who pays their salary and from whose bank account!
You just don't get it do you? Qantas has been flying across the pond WAY more than the 10 years since 2001!
I have only been flying for QF since 1988 but we were certainly doing it then!
The way I understand it Jetconnect was started for NZ domestic flying after the previous airline went tits up. Qantas mainline 737s did the flying on a temporary basis until Jetconnect set up [not stealing anybodies flying]
Jetconnect I would expect employed whoever applied! I know it has/had a mix of Aussies and Kiwis, some with lots of previous experience [some ex Ansetts, both Aust and NZ] and some new starters.
The issue is with QF management undercutting mainline with this airline which now DOES NOT OPERATE DOMESTICALLY IN NZ but simply flies across the pond on old mainline routes.
The Jetconnect crews have been screwed by QF management closing them down domestically and starting Jetstar NZ.
And for those who say it is a NZ company "So There" just tell me who pays their salary and from whose bank account!
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AJ, Cliff etc are selling off the Qantas reputation.
Qantas pilots and to a pretty large extent Qantas Engineers have over many many many years worked very hard to strive to achieve a standard that is recognised in the Aviation Industry as the benchmark of safety and benchmark of the "standard".
I am not saying that their current benchmarks are still up to scratch, but it's their reputation of this, that keeps people flying with the Q.
AJ, etc are about one thing. Putting the rat on the tail of all the 787's coming to Qantas, but basing everyone in Asia. That way, they pay less, charge the same, and deliver a product far below the safety standard that Qantas has become known to demonstrate day in day out.
They seem to think that by having that lick of red paint on the tail makes them immune to training standards, immune to experience and immune to fatalities.
Managements actions will disolve a 90 year build up history, only in the future to have the airline to be thought of as... just another airline. It wont have the history, it wont have the experience it currently has, it wont have anything to hang it's hat on with respect to safety standards once Bing Lee and Bok Choy get their hands on a new Qjet.
Qantas pilots and to a pretty large extent Qantas Engineers have over many many many years worked very hard to strive to achieve a standard that is recognised in the Aviation Industry as the benchmark of safety and benchmark of the "standard".
I am not saying that their current benchmarks are still up to scratch, but it's their reputation of this, that keeps people flying with the Q.
AJ, etc are about one thing. Putting the rat on the tail of all the 787's coming to Qantas, but basing everyone in Asia. That way, they pay less, charge the same, and deliver a product far below the safety standard that Qantas has become known to demonstrate day in day out.
They seem to think that by having that lick of red paint on the tail makes them immune to training standards, immune to experience and immune to fatalities.
Managements actions will disolve a 90 year build up history, only in the future to have the airline to be thought of as... just another airline. It wont have the history, it wont have the experience it currently has, it wont have anything to hang it's hat on with respect to safety standards once Bing Lee and Bok Choy get their hands on a new Qjet.