Dick Smith's letter to the PM re Tasmania.
Yep, have to agree, peuce. Sandilands is entitled to write whatever he wishes...factual or opinionated...that is the choice of the reader to believe what is presented. Just wish he would give attribution for his info.
Reading between the lines...the Anderson directive stipulated radar approach for class C...with this directive rescinded...one wonders what type of airspace the NAStronauts will attempt to push for after the caretaker period?
Reading between the lines...the Anderson directive stipulated radar approach for class C...with this directive rescinded...one wonders what type of airspace the NAStronauts will attempt to push for after the caretaker period?
Leadsled,
As I've said many times before ... Australia is a Democracy and the majority rule ... whether they are right or not.
That, of course, doesn't negate your right to try to reform the majority.
The majority seem to say ... we know we can never get it 100% safe ( which I thought was your position), we are happy to reduce bad stuff as much as possible by trying to Control things ... but only where the cost is justified ... not just because we can.
As I've said many times before ... Australia is a Democracy and the majority rule ... whether they are right or not.
That, of course, doesn't negate your right to try to reform the majority.
The majority seem to say ... we know we can never get it 100% safe ( which I thought was your position), we are happy to reduce bad stuff as much as possible by trying to Control things ... but only where the cost is justified ... not just because we can.
So when will we see this "new improved" radar control at Yulura, Mildura, Ballina, Karratha, Broome, Mackay, Hamiliton Island, Gove, Alice Springs, etc?
Afterall what is the difference in landing at Alice when the tower is shut than at Launceston?
No doubt we will see a push for Canberra tower to be manned 24/7?
Why is Dick pushing for radar at Devonport now? Once upon time it was a Flight Service base, then a MTAF, then a MBZ now its a CTAF-R.
Why a radar service for a handful of Dash-8 flights a day?
Nothing to do with Launceston being in a very marginal seat for the federal election, by any chance?
Having a look back through the accident files for Launceston most accidents have happened when the tower is open.
March 1995 Trojan 2 Fatalities
September 1993 VH-WGI Piper PA-31/350 CFIT 6 fatalities
August 1982 DH114 Heron VH-CLY 0 Fatalities
March 1965 Fokker Friendship.
Perhaps the skygods that fly the big shiny jets for Virgin and Jetstar, need to brush up on there procedures for operating OCTA . The crews that fly the B737 freighters up and down the East coast seem to be very capable of seperating them selves from other VFR or IFR traffic when operaing OCTA at night time.
Afterall what is the difference in landing at Alice when the tower is shut than at Launceston?
No doubt we will see a push for Canberra tower to be manned 24/7?
Why is Dick pushing for radar at Devonport now? Once upon time it was a Flight Service base, then a MTAF, then a MBZ now its a CTAF-R.
Why a radar service for a handful of Dash-8 flights a day?
Nothing to do with Launceston being in a very marginal seat for the federal election, by any chance?
Having a look back through the accident files for Launceston most accidents have happened when the tower is open.
March 1995 Trojan 2 Fatalities
September 1993 VH-WGI Piper PA-31/350 CFIT 6 fatalities
August 1982 DH114 Heron VH-CLY 0 Fatalities
March 1965 Fokker Friendship.
Perhaps the skygods that fly the big shiny jets for Virgin and Jetstar, need to brush up on there procedures for operating OCTA . The crews that fly the B737 freighters up and down the East coast seem to be very capable of seperating them selves from other VFR or IFR traffic when operaing OCTA at night time.
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I rather suspect many of you will disagree with him, but his opinions are in the real world, not just the narrow inward looking little world of Australian domestic pilots and ATC.
The incident at LT would not have happened had services been requested by either Jetstar or Virgin airlines.
Let it be noted that the Julia flew in to Launy last night. Not one peep out of any Nastronaut or journalist - why - because the Tower extended the service. And much cheaper than 2 pages in the newspapers. I bet the left one out of my donkeys yous were just itching to spray that one.
From "THE SCURVY PLANET"
PRIME MINISTERS ACFT 'JULIA ONE' FLYS TO THE THIRD WORLD NATION OF LAUNCESTON TASMANIA WITH NO ATC COVERAGE and almost hit a mountain too
Anyway Julia was last seen surveying the Radar site with about 20 Journalists
Last edited by Freedom7; 26th Jul 2010 at 07:11. Reason: Naming of Newspaper
One would expect the highly trained RAAF pilots to follow the correct procedures and either fly a DME arrival or go out to Nile for the ILS, so why would they run into a mountain then?
For ****'s sake, Paravion had some blokes with brand new instrument ratings flogging around in that sh#tbox old C310 VH-IFF(1 VOR, 1 ADF and 1 Australian DME) on the bank run for years without flying into a hillside or mountain. Ted Rudges guys used fly into Launceston in the Doves on night freight. The IPEC guys used fly in and out of YMLT and YMHB for years in the Argosies and then the DC-9 without any dramas.
Why all of sudden the big drama of flying into Tasmania at night time?
The mob out of YMMB flog in and out of Wynyard and King Island night time all on their ownsome. Look at the amount of high terrain in around the Wynyard circuit area.
For ****'s sake, Paravion had some blokes with brand new instrument ratings flogging around in that sh#tbox old C310 VH-IFF(1 VOR, 1 ADF and 1 Australian DME) on the bank run for years without flying into a hillside or mountain. Ted Rudges guys used fly into Launceston in the Doves on night freight. The IPEC guys used fly in and out of YMLT and YMHB for years in the Argosies and then the DC-9 without any dramas.
Why all of sudden the big drama of flying into Tasmania at night time?
The mob out of YMMB flog in and out of Wynyard and King Island night time all on their ownsome. Look at the amount of high terrain in around the Wynyard circuit area.
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And the additional follow up link to Leadies....
Launceston incident…the Minister says ’supervision’ means ‘total control’ – Plane Talking
Over to yous
Launceston incident…the Minister says ’supervision’ means ‘total control’ – Plane Talking
Over to yous
4. The aircraft that were involved in incident are not scheduled outside of current tower hours (and therefore avoid charges). On the night in question both aircraft were running late – therefore they arrived outside of tower hours – i.e. it isn’t the schedule and it isn’t about avoiding charges.
A strange thing to say...not being charged at all? or not liable for charges outside of hours?.or...are charged as per the regular schedule within normal tower hours? and will be charged for service outside tower hours? Very obtuse statment, Mr Minister
Thanks for lumping that on us F7 ...
My cynic meter has just popped its woofle valve
Then the CASA Regional Aerodromes report, on which the Minister has based his directive, says:
Why do I feel that we have no process anymore ... other than political?
Why am I surprised about this?
Will it ever change ... regardless of incumbent party?
NOPE
P.S. Mr Sandilands, you are free to reproduce this in your column as well
My cynic meter has just popped its woofle valve
Australian Airspace Policy Statement 2010
Airspace Act 2007
I, ANTHONY NORMAN ALBANESE, Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, make this Statement under section 8 of the Airspace Act 2007.
Dated (10 December) 2009
15. Changes to an existing airspace classification or designation should be the consequence of a clear and consistent risk management process.
16. CASA‟s risk management process should be consistent with published Australian Standards for risk management as updated.
41. The airspace strategy requires transparency so that the aviation industry has clear insight into the way in which airspace administrative decisions will be developed, taken and implemented including industry and agency consultation. The strategy does however recognise there will be times when urgent decisions are required to meet a safety imperative.
Airspace Act 2007
I, ANTHONY NORMAN ALBANESE, Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, make this Statement under section 8 of the Airspace Act 2007.
Dated (10 December) 2009
15. Changes to an existing airspace classification or designation should be the consequence of a clear and consistent risk management process.
16. CASA‟s risk management process should be consistent with published Australian Standards for risk management as updated.
41. The airspace strategy requires transparency so that the aviation industry has clear insight into the way in which airspace administrative decisions will be developed, taken and implemented including industry and agency consultation. The strategy does however recognise there will be times when urgent decisions are required to meet a safety imperative.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) recently conducted studies of the 10 Regional Aerodromes (2009-2010). The studies found there were no imminent safety concerns identified at the 10 Regional Aerodromes.
Why am I surprised about this?
Will it ever change ... regardless of incumbent party?
NOPE
P.S. Mr Sandilands, you are free to reproduce this in your column as well
Just to prove I'm not always negative, here's a suggestion for fixing the "Launceston Problem" .
Dear Mr Albanese,
I am impressed with your expertise, and strength, whilst using a sledghammer to open an accorn, however, perhaps a more subtle approach may be in order.
As a suggestion, how about this:
I trust you'll take these suggestions in the spirit in which they were given.
Your mate peuce.
Dear Mr Albanese,
I am impressed with your expertise, and strength, whilst using a sledghammer to open an accorn, however, perhaps a more subtle approach may be in order.
As a suggestion, how about this:
- Let's presume that a Jet is late once at each of, say, 10 Towers, each week of the year. That would amount to about $40,000 in late fees for the year. How about you return $40,000 of the tax that the Industry pays each year ... to cover that and make it mandatory that Jets call out the Tower ... if late. Short term problem solved.
- For the longer term, as surveillance technology and equipment develops and becomes readily available, get ASA to include it in its capital program and gradually deploy it across the country, on a priority list. At that time, upgrade the Control structure in those locations to a surveillance based one.
But remember to take into account the airborne equipment requirements as well. Long term problem solved.
I trust you'll take these suggestions in the spirit in which they were given.
Your mate peuce.
Note to Mr Sandilands...actually get out there and investigate how this incident unfolded and look at how separation was compromised. It has nothing to do with tower hours and everything to do with a breakdown in procedures. The meat of this argument rests in the cockpit of that DJ 73...why?
The meat of this argument rests in the cockpit of that DJ 73...why?
And Peuce, please be logical and practical will ya?!
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OZBUSDRIVER,
What incident, what compromise of separation, what breakdown of procedures? There was no TCAS advisory let alone any resolution required. The only element of surprise was that the Virgin Blue aircraft was closer than thought by the Jetstar crew so they decided to climb to 4,100' rather than the missed approach altitude of 3,100'.
What are the separation standards for Class G? Serious question as I don't have the information to hand at present. I suspect that if it hadn't been for the radar controllers in Melbourne watching the events on their screens nothing more would have come of it as the two aircraft came 0.2 nm closer than their separation standard.
actually get out there and investigate how this incident unfolded and look at how separation was compromised
What are the separation standards for Class G? Serious question as I don't have the information to hand at present. I suspect that if it hadn't been for the radar controllers in Melbourne watching the events on their screens nothing more would have come of it as the two aircraft came 0.2 nm closer than their separation standard.
First, I know ... I'm starting to get on my own nerves as well. However, my therapist said it's better to get these things off my chest ... so, who am I to argue with a professional?
I was starting to feel that I might have been a bit too harsh with the Minister.
I was thinking that perhaps what he is talking about are 'aspirations' .. you, know, in the fullness of time stuff.... rather than 'get your arses down to Launy, now!' type stuff.
I mean, who could argue against getting surveillance installed where we have control services.
But, as I was lying on the therapist's couch scratching my head, I thought ... but that really is years down the track. Wasn't the raison d'étre of his cunning plan to stop the recent horrendous goings on at Launy from happening again?
How long to get surveillance and equipment sourced and installed, some Controllers plucked out of someone's backside and training and rating completed? That's looking like the 12th of never to me.
So what have we really ended up with?
Bugger all !
We're all going to still die at Launy!
Doctor ... ???
I was starting to feel that I might have been a bit too harsh with the Minister.
I was thinking that perhaps what he is talking about are 'aspirations' .. you, know, in the fullness of time stuff.... rather than 'get your arses down to Launy, now!' type stuff.
I mean, who could argue against getting surveillance installed where we have control services.
But, as I was lying on the therapist's couch scratching my head, I thought ... but that really is years down the track. Wasn't the raison d'étre of his cunning plan to stop the recent horrendous goings on at Launy from happening again?
How long to get surveillance and equipment sourced and installed, some Controllers plucked out of someone's backside and training and rating completed? That's looking like the 12th of never to me.
So what have we really ended up with?
- No change to procedures at Launy
- A long term plan to equip up
Bugger all !
We're all going to still die at Launy!
Doctor ... ???
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Peuce
"For the longer term, as surveillance technology and equipment develops and becomes readily available, get ASA to include it in its capital program and gradually deploy it across the country, on a priority list. At that time, upgrade the Control structure in those locations to a surveillance based one.
But remember to take into account the airborne equipment requirements as well. Long term problem solved."
Isn't this the dreaded Class E airspace?
"For the longer term, as surveillance technology and equipment develops and becomes readily available, get ASA to include it in its capital program and gradually deploy it across the country, on a priority list. At that time, upgrade the Control structure in those locations to a surveillance based one.
But remember to take into account the airborne equipment requirements as well. Long term problem solved."
Isn't this the dreaded Class E airspace?
Mr Approach,
Not necessarily.
Surveillance can also be used in C,D,B,A ... and even G(F)
I'm for whatever is the most appropriate for that particular location.
But definitely NO E ... without surveillance.
Isn't this the dreaded Class E airspace?
Surveillance can also be used in C,D,B,A ... and even G(F)
I'm for whatever is the most appropriate for that particular location.
But definitely NO E ... without surveillance.
PLovett, Yep, if it wasn't for ML coming up on frequency, no one would be the wiser.
Maybe, I should have put separation inside "". I still think this whole thing is a beatup to push an agenda. Very clever and well crafted, but still a beatup. Government in caretaker mode so...basically...powerless.
Maybe, I should have put separation inside "". I still think this whole thing is a beatup to push an agenda. Very clever and well crafted, but still a beatup. Government in caretaker mode so...basically...powerless.
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OZ, happy to agree with you.
The whole thing is a total beatup to push for E airspace in place of D after the boys in the tower have put the cat and milk bottles out.
As some may have guessed I was the bunny interviewed for the ABC news item. What didn't come across very well was that we, the other guy in the sim and I, are not opposed to having some form of controlled separation after hours but to slate the present process in G as archaic and totally dangerous was exaggeration and unnecessarily sensationalist.
What we were trying to show in the sim is that with all the bells and whistles that the modern generation of Bo/Bus contains safety wasn't an issue. We actually simulated the flight path of the Boeing in the holding pattern that night to show that the TCAS didn't come into play. It still wouldn't even when we tried flying the Boeing back towards the VOR at that altitude and with the Bus climbing through 3,100' on the missed approach. To make it produce a RA we actually had to get both aircraft to fly towards each other at 3,100' which would have created a real problem as 3,100' is the MSA where they were.
The whole thing is a total beatup to push for E airspace in place of D after the boys in the tower have put the cat and milk bottles out.
As some may have guessed I was the bunny interviewed for the ABC news item. What didn't come across very well was that we, the other guy in the sim and I, are not opposed to having some form of controlled separation after hours but to slate the present process in G as archaic and totally dangerous was exaggeration and unnecessarily sensationalist.
What we were trying to show in the sim is that with all the bells and whistles that the modern generation of Bo/Bus contains safety wasn't an issue. We actually simulated the flight path of the Boeing in the holding pattern that night to show that the TCAS didn't come into play. It still wouldn't even when we tried flying the Boeing back towards the VOR at that altitude and with the Bus climbing through 3,100' on the missed approach. To make it produce a RA we actually had to get both aircraft to fly towards each other at 3,100' which would have created a real problem as 3,100' is the MSA where they were.
PLovett
E is all this is about. I am very interested to see how AirServices will be able to impliment control services from ML, right down to the ground...in whatever flavour of airspace.
It is so simple to have the Dawg and his buddies work a bit of OT...for the right coin...and have that set of eyes where it matters most...as Smith is want to saying.
E is all this is about. I am very interested to see how AirServices will be able to impliment control services from ML, right down to the ground...in whatever flavour of airspace.
It is so simple to have the Dawg and his buddies work a bit of OT...for the right coin
...and have that set of eyes where it matters most...as Smith is want to saying.
It has nothing to do with tower hours and everything to do with a breakdown in procedures.
It must be something I have completely missed in the last 40 years or so of flying.
Could you please direct me to the details of the published "procedures" I "must" follow, to ensure no breakdown of "separation" in Class G.
Indeed, I have always understood that the very great danger of pilots attempting "do it yourself" air traffic control was that pilots are not trained controllers (even if many Regionals think they are) and with no third part controller, just what happened at Launy is exactly what you would expect to eventually happen.
Tootle pip!!