Unions Join Forces Against V Australia
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Unions Join Forces Against V Australia
What does it all mean?????
Unions join forces against V Australia: maximum duty hour limitations
Steve Creedy
From: The Australian
February 19, 2010 12:00AM
V AUSTRALIA is facing legal action and possible industrial turmoil as unions representing flight attendants and pilots lobby for new agreements.The Flight Attendants Association of Australia is preparing to launch legal action with Fair Work Australia, alleging breaches of maximum duty hour limitations defining how long crew can work under the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award.
And the Qantas-based Australian International Pilots Association has moved to help its fledgling Virgin counterpart, VIPA, with negotiations on an enterprise agreement. Both groups are opposed to a Virgin move to bring pilots and cabin crew under one enterprise agreement.
FAAA international division secretary Michael Mijatov said the union had written to V Australia several times about the flight limitation issue.
Mr Mijatov said the union, which had recruited 75 per cent of the airline's flight attendants, wanted to discuss the issue in the context of wider enterprise bargaining negotiations. "They are just being very, very difficult," he said. "They pretend to their employees that they're friendly and they care about them, but when you meet with them they are just totally arrogant and dismissive."
Mr Mijatov said the association expected to lodge its duty hour claim today and he was seeking legal advice on how to get the airline to the bargaining table. "One of the things I will be raising will actually be the option of notifying a bargaining period and that would be the first step in the potential use of industrial action."
A spokeswoman for Virgin Blue confirmed that the FAAA had raised a concern with management and said VAustralia had responded.
She said the airline had already agreed to start discussions on an EBA for the airline. "Currently we're simply awaiting the nomination of EBA representatives so we can proceed with that intention," she said.
But Mr Mijatov said a letter was received this week indicating the airline believed it was not breaking flight limitations and indicating it still wanted to keep all crew under one agreement.
He had spoken to both VIPA and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots and was aware that neither wanted an agreement involving cabin crew.
VIPA, which was set up last year, and AIPA said they were working together on ways to increase membership of V Australia pilots with the aim of negotiating a new collective agreement.
AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said the current V Australia contract was capped at levels below those of most airlines. "We're a bit worried where that contract's going to go ultimately and I gather they're coming up for EBA negotiations, so we felt it was time to offer assistance unless they plumb the depths of pilot contracts in Australia, let alone the world," he said
Unions join forces against V Australia: maximum duty hour limitations
Steve Creedy
From: The Australian
February 19, 2010 12:00AM
V AUSTRALIA is facing legal action and possible industrial turmoil as unions representing flight attendants and pilots lobby for new agreements.The Flight Attendants Association of Australia is preparing to launch legal action with Fair Work Australia, alleging breaches of maximum duty hour limitations defining how long crew can work under the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award.
And the Qantas-based Australian International Pilots Association has moved to help its fledgling Virgin counterpart, VIPA, with negotiations on an enterprise agreement. Both groups are opposed to a Virgin move to bring pilots and cabin crew under one enterprise agreement.
FAAA international division secretary Michael Mijatov said the union had written to V Australia several times about the flight limitation issue.
Mr Mijatov said the union, which had recruited 75 per cent of the airline's flight attendants, wanted to discuss the issue in the context of wider enterprise bargaining negotiations. "They are just being very, very difficult," he said. "They pretend to their employees that they're friendly and they care about them, but when you meet with them they are just totally arrogant and dismissive."
Mr Mijatov said the association expected to lodge its duty hour claim today and he was seeking legal advice on how to get the airline to the bargaining table. "One of the things I will be raising will actually be the option of notifying a bargaining period and that would be the first step in the potential use of industrial action."
A spokeswoman for Virgin Blue confirmed that the FAAA had raised a concern with management and said VAustralia had responded.
She said the airline had already agreed to start discussions on an EBA for the airline. "Currently we're simply awaiting the nomination of EBA representatives so we can proceed with that intention," she said.
But Mr Mijatov said a letter was received this week indicating the airline believed it was not breaking flight limitations and indicating it still wanted to keep all crew under one agreement.
He had spoken to both VIPA and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots and was aware that neither wanted an agreement involving cabin crew.
VIPA, which was set up last year, and AIPA said they were working together on ways to increase membership of V Australia pilots with the aim of negotiating a new collective agreement.
AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said the current V Australia contract was capped at levels below those of most airlines. "We're a bit worried where that contract's going to go ultimately and I gather they're coming up for EBA negotiations, so we felt it was time to offer assistance unless they plumb the depths of pilot contracts in Australia, let alone the world," he said
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OMG Could it be true? Unions putting aside petty differences, seeing the bigger picture and working together to improve conditions for all involved and the betterment of the industry. Stop the clocks and mark the time. Run to the sea and observe the tide; It may finally be changing. 
Meanwhile where is the AFAP? Are they still fighting the MBF for the betterment of themselves?
Could it be true? Unions putting aside petty differences, seeing the bigger picture and working together to improve conditions for all involved and the betterment of the industry. Stop the clocks and mark the time. Run to the sea and observe the tide; It may finally be changing. Meanwhile where is the AFAP? Are they still fighting the MBF for the betterment of themselves?
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OMG 
Could it be true? Unions putting aside petty differences, seeing the bigger picture and working together to improve conditions for all involved and the betterment of the industry.
Could it be true? Unions putting aside petty differences, seeing the bigger picture and working together to improve conditions for all involved and the betterment of the industry.
JOINT STATEMENT FROM VIPA AND AIPA
18 February 2010
Virgin Blue, V-Australia, Jetstar, QantasLink and Qantas
Pilot Associations get down to business
Groundbreaking high level discussions have resulted in Australia’s main commercial
airlines’ Pilot Associations agreeing to work collaboratively for the benefit of all
airline pilots.
Both VIPA (the Pilot Association representing Virgin Blue, V Australia, and Pacific
Blue pilots) and AIPA (the Pilot Association representing Qantas, QantasLink and
Jetstar pilots) are together working on ways to increase the membership of V
Australia pilots prior to negotiating a new collective agreement with the Virgin
Airlines.
VIPA will utilise AIPA's international experience and expertise to assist VIPA
members within V Australia (V Australia pilots) to form a new collective agreement.
We are confident that our collaborative approach will serve us well for the future and
will also be a solid foundation for further combined efforts down the track.
It is clear that pilots are best served by unified Pilot Associations that work together
to resist the deskilling of pilots’ work and the negative effects of an increasingly
globalised economy where pilots continue to bear the brunt of continuous cost
cutting by airline employers.
As a recently registered association that is gathering momentum, VIPA looks
forward to contributing to an alliance that presents exciting possibilities for
Australian pilots.
John Lyons, President of VIPA, the Virgin Pilots Association and Barry Jackson,
President of the Australian and International Pilots Association, said in a joint
statement today.
ENDS
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"They pretend to their employees that they're friendly and they care about them, but when you meet with them they are just totally arrogant and dismissive."
Someone commented that the NT in my handle indicated that I couldn't have flown DJ that much. The NT stands for 'not there anymore (unfortunately).' I fly DJ heaps, particularly the Junglies, between the east and that place with the one-way free-way. The cabin crew have always been superb.
If any of you guys read this, just take a thankyou from a satisfied passenger - I hate that 'customer' rubbish.
And if, according to another thread, AFAP is actually getting rid of their Loss of Licence (the only reason a lot of pilots stick with them) then they really will go the way of the dodo.
Bring it on!!!
Bring it on!!!
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Fantastic - a glimmer of hope prevails!
Please keep up the momentum.
Regardless of some attitudes towards the AFAP, hopefully they too can cast aside history and join the combined group.
There is only one way that pilots can improve their lot and that is TOGETHER.
No more moaning about our differences, it's well past time to work together.
This new and hopefully long-lived cohesiveness, combined with the inevitable shortage of qualified bums needed to fill the thousands of new airliners being built presents the best opportunity in a very long time for Australian pilots to once again make their profession a viable and rewarding one - a situation that does not exist at present.
Please keep up the momentum.
Regardless of some attitudes towards the AFAP, hopefully they too can cast aside history and join the combined group.
There is only one way that pilots can improve their lot and that is TOGETHER.
No more moaning about our differences, it's well past time to work together.
This new and hopefully long-lived cohesiveness, combined with the inevitable shortage of qualified bums needed to fill the thousands of new airliners being built presents the best opportunity in a very long time for Australian pilots to once again make their profession a viable and rewarding one - a situation that does not exist at present.
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This is great news for the industry in general and V Australia pilots in particular.
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I don't get it...
Am I missing something?
For years there has been an over supply of pilots. Airlines twigged that they could save a buck by working their employees more and paying them less, because ppl jumped at the chance to get out of their current job, for the chance to work somewhere bigger, better, closer to home, etc.. Hence, the race to the bottom.
Everyone @ VB, JQ, VA, etc.. were told the terms and conditions they would have to agree to if they wanted to be employed. Some ppl said "Yes, i'll do it" while others said "Thanks, but no thanks."
Now the ppl who said "Yes, i'll help you bring the industry down" have realised what they've signed up for and NOW they want it changed??
Maybe i've missed something, but IMHO, if you've made your bed, you should lie in it. Maybe if more ppl said "No" at the beginning, companies would offer better conditions, instead of having to bring the unions into it.
For years there has been an over supply of pilots. Airlines twigged that they could save a buck by working their employees more and paying them less, because ppl jumped at the chance to get out of their current job, for the chance to work somewhere bigger, better, closer to home, etc.. Hence, the race to the bottom.
Everyone @ VB, JQ, VA, etc.. were told the terms and conditions they would have to agree to if they wanted to be employed. Some ppl said "Yes, i'll do it" while others said "Thanks, but no thanks."
Now the ppl who said "Yes, i'll help you bring the industry down" have realised what they've signed up for and NOW they want it changed??
Maybe i've missed something, but IMHO, if you've made your bed, you should lie in it. Maybe if more ppl said "No" at the beginning, companies would offer better conditions, instead of having to bring the unions into it.
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Physco Joe,
Do you want to know where the AFAP is?
They were in FWA last week sitting along side JQ management fighting AIPA's dispute with JQ....
Thats's right!
LC and co were sitting alongside JQ management fighting another union who is trying to represent the MAJORITY of JQ pilots!
Another disgraceful act by the soon to be/already irrelevant AFAP!
Let's hope VIPA and AIPA can finally head us in the right direction....
Do you want to know where the AFAP is?
They were in FWA last week sitting along side JQ management fighting AIPA's dispute with JQ....
Thats's right!
LC and co were sitting alongside JQ management fighting another union who is trying to represent the MAJORITY of JQ pilots!
Another disgraceful act by the soon to be/already irrelevant AFAP!
Let's hope VIPA and AIPA can finally head us in the right direction....
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Ah yes some of the last posts reiterate exactly why it will be difficult for Professional Aviators to improve their lot. Unity will be difficult to achieve and self-interest will almost always prevail in Australian aviation.
The other problemm is agressive stupidity. I don't usually like to be negative but then we have absolute idiots like TBM-Legend and Tee-Em (why are you even on this website and are you the same person?), with simplistic statements like "If you don't like the big V or anywhere else.
-off and work somewhere else you winging cretins..." Gee that really helps. Good onya champs, great posts and great turns of phrase, you must be so proud of yourseves.
Anyway back to hopefully well considered posts....
VA is a rotten package at present and those who took it may often have done so because of difficult personal circumstances. Yes it can be argued that they brought down the level for Professional aviators but there is nothing to stop them by whatever means (preferably united) improving their lot now.
Just adopting the stupid "if you don't like it F-Off" mentality isthe domain of fools.
Ironically however TBM that's exactly what WILL happen, but not the way the likes of you would prefer. The will imminently be Not enough pilots and too many aeroplanes. It was already becoming severe before the GFC. Basic supply/demand equation. If VA don't shape up the their crews will vanish within months to airlines desperate for experienced crew and who necessarily and realistically pay better. The 777 is a sellable rating. The same will apply, particularly to Tiger which will have to cancel services and to a lesser degree Jetstar.
So before we recommence sniping at each like children other can we grasp the basic fact that.
A) We can only achieve anything if we are united.
B) There will always be idiots like TBM ready to undermine us. We just need to bypass such people and achieve an aim that betters the lot of all professional pilots.
The other problemm is agressive stupidity. I don't usually like to be negative but then we have absolute idiots like TBM-Legend and Tee-Em (why are you even on this website and are you the same person?), with simplistic statements like "If you don't like the big V or anywhere else.
-off and work somewhere else you winging cretins..." Gee that really helps. Good onya champs, great posts and great turns of phrase, you must be so proud of yourseves. Anyway back to hopefully well considered posts....
VA is a rotten package at present and those who took it may often have done so because of difficult personal circumstances. Yes it can be argued that they brought down the level for Professional aviators but there is nothing to stop them by whatever means (preferably united) improving their lot now.
Just adopting the stupid "if you don't like it F-Off" mentality isthe domain of fools.
Ironically however TBM that's exactly what WILL happen, but not the way the likes of you would prefer. The will imminently be Not enough pilots and too many aeroplanes. It was already becoming severe before the GFC. Basic supply/demand equation. If VA don't shape up the their crews will vanish within months to airlines desperate for experienced crew and who necessarily and realistically pay better. The 777 is a sellable rating. The same will apply, particularly to Tiger which will have to cancel services and to a lesser degree Jetstar.
So before we recommence sniping at each like children other can we grasp the basic fact that.
A) We can only achieve anything if we are united.
B) There will always be idiots like TBM ready to undermine us. We just need to bypass such people and achieve an aim that betters the lot of all professional pilots.
Mr La Rhone -Thanks for your comments. The point is that this is the 21st century. The extreme case of trying on the employers [see 1989] was last century and it caused much agnst for all including many folks who became collateral damage victims of a self-centered group who did not see the forest for the trees.
Today we all have choices - take them if you have the courage..
Today we all have choices - take them if you have the courage..
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A.L.R. have you considered the possibility that much of the negative 'turns of phrase' that you refer to are born of utter frustration at what we have done to our industry? All the talk of solidarity and unification will never amount to more than that. History has proven so over and over and over again. To emphasize my point just look at the naivety and completely off topic direction of Compylot's post! He is the new age pilot. "I don't care. I want to fly a shiny new Jet. It will get better in due course."
Fill your boots trying to undo the parasitic self destruction that's been breeding unfettered in the Great Southern Land for over a decade now. Such a miracle would be quite novel...
Fill your boots trying to undo the parasitic self destruction that's been breeding unfettered in the Great Southern Land for over a decade now. Such a miracle would be quite novel...
Unions.
"All the talk of solidarity and unification will never amount to more than that."
On an anonymous web forum no, probably not, but it would be great....wouldn't it? How do we help to get it together?
On an anonymous web forum no, probably not, but it would be great....wouldn't it? How do we help to get it together?
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Unfortunately, I think we all know that pilots as a group are as weak as pi$$.
We tried getting together before, and well you know the story. Many of the $cab$ are C&T around the place. It was one way to get a promoion.
On the upside, my children learned to speak Malay very well.
We tried getting together before, and well you know the story. Many of the $cab$ are C&T around the place. It was one way to get a promoion.
On the upside, my children learned to speak Malay very well.