Unions Join Forces Against V Australia
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I for one hope this will begin the unification of pilots as a whole. 
Weak as piss, some, selfish, some, impatient, some... but with appropriate guidance the flaws of a few will be diminished by a greater good. Just the mere presence of a such a force will be enough to get management to think twice.
Weak as piss, some, selfish, some, impatient, some... but with appropriate guidance the flaws of a few will be diminished by a greater good. Just the mere presence of a such a force will be enough to get management to think twice.
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I sincerely hope there will eventually be more aircraft than pilots. As we all know there has always been an oversupply of pilots in Aus.
Early in 2008 there were signs that there was a shortage beginning to appear. It will be interesting to see what will happen when the world's economy gets back to normal. But don't forget when ever an airline goes broke - BANG - hundreds of pilots become available. For instance I hear you can't get a job in Japan anymore
From what I hear most pilots joined V - Aus knowing the T&C were sh!t but are hoping that with each EBA negotiation things will get better, citing a similar outcome at Virgin Blue.
Early in 2008 there were signs that there was a shortage beginning to appear. It will be interesting to see what will happen when the world's economy gets back to normal. But don't forget when ever an airline goes broke - BANG - hundreds of pilots become available. For instance I hear you can't get a job in Japan anymore
From what I hear most pilots joined V - Aus knowing the T&C were sh!t but are hoping that with each EBA negotiation things will get better, citing a similar outcome at Virgin Blue.
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I don't usually like to be negative but then we have absolute idiots like TBM-Legend and Tee-Em (why are you even on this website
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High Bypass.
So, in simple terms, according to you, there are two categories.
There are those that accepted the job offer at Vaus and later realized what a crappy deal it was. As though they struggled to read the terms of their contract before signing it.
And we now know that they are presently struggling to make ends meet on the meager offerings provided by the overlord for whom they are in servitude.
And then there are those we admire, the ones that said "Thanks, but no thanks."
My question to you, Mr Bypass, is, where exactly is this second group of people you refer to, the ones who refused the job offer. Are they presently enjoying the higher salaries they eagerly held out for, happily in the employ of the other, more generous Australian based 777 operator?
Or are they presently sitting at home in eternal hope that the phone will eventually ring bringing joyous news of a more substantial offer.
How long are they prepared to sit….at home….waiting for such an offer?
Perhaps they don’t have bills to pay and families to feed.
So, in simple terms, according to you, there are two categories.
There are those that accepted the job offer at Vaus and later realized what a crappy deal it was. As though they struggled to read the terms of their contract before signing it.
And we now know that they are presently struggling to make ends meet on the meager offerings provided by the overlord for whom they are in servitude.
And then there are those we admire, the ones that said "Thanks, but no thanks."
My question to you, Mr Bypass, is, where exactly is this second group of people you refer to, the ones who refused the job offer. Are they presently enjoying the higher salaries they eagerly held out for, happily in the employ of the other, more generous Australian based 777 operator?
Or are they presently sitting at home in eternal hope that the phone will eventually ring bringing joyous news of a more substantial offer.
How long are they prepared to sit….at home….waiting for such an offer?
Perhaps they don’t have bills to pay and families to feed.
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Or it may not. VA may fly to Japan and China and PER-LHR and SYD-JFK. It is a better product than QF and in normal times will flourish.
Hopefully those 'normal' times may force them to look after staff properly.
Hopefully those 'normal' times may force them to look after staff properly.
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There's only one important job!
And that's the problem. No one is interested in improving anything, except their own situation. Airlines are not run by pilots anymore but by hard nosed businessmen (or businesswomen) who do "whatever it takes" to make the figures better and get bonuses.
And while there is a huge pool of "wannabies" conditions will get worse, not better. Some of these "wannabies are buying jet endorsements, and the race for the bottom has started. Look at GA. The only difference is the size of the necessary debt but the same thing is happening in the airline world now. And you blokes are letting it happen, because most have tunnel vision and cannot (or will not) see the big picture. There is an ad for flying training on this forum, but I don't see any pilot jobs advertised. The flying magazines have lots of advertising for flying training, but mostly no jobs. And a poster on prune who is not happy with the situation at one of our more prominent regionals seems to be promoting flying training to make the pool of wannabies larger. (Ther'll be pie in the sky bye and bye) The wannabies do not stop at CPL level anymore. Airlines are powerful financially and politically and this has been demonstrated. I would not like to pick a fight with any of them, but they will react to what will cost them money. And if the pool of wannabies dries up it will cost them. And the race to the bottom will slow.
The public should read headlines like "the pilot was paid
$20-00 for this flight." Or "this airline pays it's F/O s $35,000 a year" or "Pilot's award is less than the average wage"
or "these pilots have to generate an cash flow suficient to pay their wages before they get a job with this organisation"
But this won't happen. And the oversupply of pilots will continue and the race to the bottom will continue. Because most pilots have tunnel vision and can only see that one job that is important. Their own. We have to make sure that the real facts get to the student pilots before they spend their money. But you blokes won't, will you?
And while there is a huge pool of "wannabies" conditions will get worse, not better. Some of these "wannabies are buying jet endorsements, and the race for the bottom has started. Look at GA. The only difference is the size of the necessary debt but the same thing is happening in the airline world now. And you blokes are letting it happen, because most have tunnel vision and cannot (or will not) see the big picture. There is an ad for flying training on this forum, but I don't see any pilot jobs advertised. The flying magazines have lots of advertising for flying training, but mostly no jobs. And a poster on prune who is not happy with the situation at one of our more prominent regionals seems to be promoting flying training to make the pool of wannabies larger. (Ther'll be pie in the sky bye and bye) The wannabies do not stop at CPL level anymore. Airlines are powerful financially and politically and this has been demonstrated. I would not like to pick a fight with any of them, but they will react to what will cost them money. And if the pool of wannabies dries up it will cost them. And the race to the bottom will slow.
The public should read headlines like "the pilot was paid
$20-00 for this flight." Or "this airline pays it's F/O s $35,000 a year" or "Pilot's award is less than the average wage"
or "these pilots have to generate an cash flow suficient to pay their wages before they get a job with this organisation"
But this won't happen. And the oversupply of pilots will continue and the race to the bottom will continue. Because most pilots have tunnel vision and can only see that one job that is important. Their own. We have to make sure that the real facts get to the student pilots before they spend their money. But you blokes won't, will you?
Last edited by bushy; 21st Feb 2010 at 07:29.
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Hooray. AIPA Jetstar and Virgin guys...a united front and we may yet achieve something. Ultimately, an airline is a plane a couple of pilots and some flight attendants. We are not useless numbers to be paid as little as THEY can give us. We are responsible for many lives and high value assets but are continually devalued by our respective employers...accountants and management consultants. A united front with one overarching union....NOT NECESSARILY AIPA!!! and we may yet get back some respect.
Good luck Virgin guys. I would be happy to support you..
Good luck Virgin guys. I would be happy to support you.
.
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Good points bushy. With all respect however, I think for the first time in living memory, the 'wannabe' supply has been diminishing significantly over recent years. CPL issues have plummeted over the last 10 years, most Australian CPLs are issued to foreign cadets destined for airlines in their homelands of China and India.
Why would anybody now wish to commit to 200k worth of debt to get a job that pays at best 50k for an FO and that's after years of slooging it out to get to even that stage? The job has no allure anymore for young guys and this is not helped by locked cockpit doors etc.
Pilots are retiring, the military has downsized and far fewer wannabes are entering the business.
However airlines ordered up big a few years ago and are taking delivery of aircraft just as we emerge from the GFC.
Basic supply and demand (not our wily negotiating skills) will force those hard-nose businesspeople to pay whatever it takes to get pilots to join them. Of course there are benefits to living in Oz but why join Tiger or VA, never see your family and have to scrimp and save just to exist when you could nip off to Asia for 10 years and be set financially for life? Increasingly that's exactly what Aussies are doing and it will be the Tigers of this world that will need to improve things dramatically if they are to avoid cancelling flights and jeopardising their very profitability.
I wouldn't say 'happy days are here again' but I would say it's time for the boys at VA to start the ball rolling for significant improvements and the best way to do that is to join with the AIPA (and AFAP for that matter).
Good luck.
Why would anybody now wish to commit to 200k worth of debt to get a job that pays at best 50k for an FO and that's after years of slooging it out to get to even that stage? The job has no allure anymore for young guys and this is not helped by locked cockpit doors etc.
Pilots are retiring, the military has downsized and far fewer wannabes are entering the business.
However airlines ordered up big a few years ago and are taking delivery of aircraft just as we emerge from the GFC.
Basic supply and demand (not our wily negotiating skills) will force those hard-nose businesspeople to pay whatever it takes to get pilots to join them. Of course there are benefits to living in Oz but why join Tiger or VA, never see your family and have to scrimp and save just to exist when you could nip off to Asia for 10 years and be set financially for life? Increasingly that's exactly what Aussies are doing and it will be the Tigers of this world that will need to improve things dramatically if they are to avoid cancelling flights and jeopardising their very profitability.
I wouldn't say 'happy days are here again' but I would say it's time for the boys at VA to start the ball rolling for significant improvements and the best way to do that is to join with the AIPA (and AFAP for that matter).
Good luck.
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Oicur12,
The people i know of who said "no thanks", all found jobs elsewhere. Some flying, some non-flying, but they have better lifestyles then what they were offered.
My point is, if you are offered a **** sandwich, and you agree to eat it, then don't complain about the taste. IMHO, if more people said no to the sandwiches, then eventually they will come off the menu.
The people i know of who said "no thanks", all found jobs elsewhere. Some flying, some non-flying, but they have better lifestyles then what they were offered.
My point is, if you are offered a **** sandwich, and you agree to eat it, then don't complain about the taste. IMHO, if more people said no to the sandwiches, then eventually they will come off the menu.
Some of these "wannabies are buying jet endorsements, and the race for the bottom has started.
IMHO, if more people said no to the sandwiches, then eventually they will come off the menu.
Some of these former wannabe pilots now even gloat about the fact that Qantas is an endangered species (even though their own T&Cs would never improve if Qantas were to disappear) - such is the depth of disunity, disharmony and malice in this industry!! Maybe those who accepted the "sandwich" are finally feeling threatened because of the entities (Jetstar NZ/Asia, for example) that have been created to undercut them.
For this industry to have any future, a single pilot union is not only desirable ... it is essential!!!
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High bypass....we both know that that won't happen. This so called united front will, as usual disintegrate the moment the busineeses will want it to. Pilots as a industrial group have been proven time and time again, to be as united as a bunch of Bedouins within spitting distance of a water hole!
It's too late to achieve anything at this point in history. The damage was done back in 1989. The problem worsened when the integrated school system was scrapped.
Take the jobs on offer if you want to fly a nice shiny jet... thats what you all really wanted to do in the first place right? Just be prepared to not earn very much. For the time and effort expended, even a Red Rats salary after 20 odd years is a bit weak these days and we can see what happened to those boys and girls. That path is gradually closing down.
So its off to living in the Far Western suburbs for the vast majority of you lot and a second hand car as the kids get older.... just like the rest of the general population, if you're lucky.
Basic Economics 101 won't allow anything else. Shame really, it was fun while it lasted.
It's too late to achieve anything at this point in history. The damage was done back in 1989. The problem worsened when the integrated school system was scrapped.
Take the jobs on offer if you want to fly a nice shiny jet... thats what you all really wanted to do in the first place right? Just be prepared to not earn very much. For the time and effort expended, even a Red Rats salary after 20 odd years is a bit weak these days and we can see what happened to those boys and girls. That path is gradually closing down.
So its off to living in the Far Western suburbs for the vast majority of you lot and a second hand car as the kids get older.... just like the rest of the general population, if you're lucky.
Basic Economics 101 won't allow anything else. Shame really, it was fun while it lasted.
Agreed. 'That year', where the domestic pilots, demonised by the Murdoch press (he owned half of Anscab), were left on their own to fight the fight, was the start of the Great Australian Airline Pilot Race to the Bottom. The inability of other pilot and employee groups to appreciate the situation ensured that the Race continues to this day.
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CD
I suggest it really started when the QF pilots walked away from the AFAP and responsibility to their fellow pilots forming APIA.
The events which followed in a later nameless year where others failed their fellow pilots continued the slide.
Succinctly said.
Since then the question has been and now is, are pilots capable of overcoming their own selfishness to actually become unified as one again to fight a common enemy i.e. Airline Management?
DK
I suggest it really started when the QF pilots walked away from the AFAP and responsibility to their fellow pilots forming APIA.
The events which followed in a later nameless year where others failed their fellow pilots continued the slide.
The inability of other pilot and employee groups to appreciate the situation ensured that the Race continues to this day.
Since then the question has been and now is, are pilots capable of overcoming their own selfishness to actually become unified as one again to fight a common enemy i.e. Airline Management?
DK
Last edited by Dark Knight; 21st Feb 2010 at 23:36. Reason: additional thoughts
Yep, Mr. Knight, they walked away and stayed away.
There is even the potential for a third pilot union in Australia as pilots of a certain Asian carrier, already based in Oz, become 'onshored' later this year. They may affiliate with one or the other, or even the TWU.
There is even the potential for a third pilot union in Australia as pilots of a certain Asian carrier, already based in Oz, become 'onshored' later this year. They may affiliate with one or the other, or even the TWU.
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Look at the facts!
Look at the history. There was a time when those who could do it were in high demand. It was always competitive to get in, but there were "closed shops" that were powerful. Those days have gone. The "closed shops" are no longer as powerful, and there has been a pool of "wannabies" for the last 35 years or more. Even in the so called "pilot Shortage" there was still a pool of wannabies. It was just a bit smaller.
Some posters on here appear to have a financial interest in a flying school, and can always find a reason why "there will be pie in the sky bye and bye" It appears that there is not "pie in the sky" like there used to be. Let's face facts and tell it like it is. I think some airline pilots enjoy the military style elitism that says "only the best get in" and they appear to like to promote the present system for that reason. It makes them feel good. But the present system is destroying them.
There will not be a "super union" that fixes it all. Pilots have to THINK, and get rid of that tunnel vision. And get rid of that huge pool of wannabies who have bought that $200,000 lottery ticket that probably won't win anything. Airlines should plan ahead and sign provisional contracts with those they will need next year. That would make the expensive lottery ticket worth something, and may slow the race to the bottom. You will ever stop it while the supply grossly exceeds the demand. It may make you feel good, but it is destroying your industry. Too many don'y care.
Some posters on here appear to have a financial interest in a flying school, and can always find a reason why "there will be pie in the sky bye and bye" It appears that there is not "pie in the sky" like there used to be. Let's face facts and tell it like it is. I think some airline pilots enjoy the military style elitism that says "only the best get in" and they appear to like to promote the present system for that reason. It makes them feel good. But the present system is destroying them.
There will not be a "super union" that fixes it all. Pilots have to THINK, and get rid of that tunnel vision. And get rid of that huge pool of wannabies who have bought that $200,000 lottery ticket that probably won't win anything. Airlines should plan ahead and sign provisional contracts with those they will need next year. That would make the expensive lottery ticket worth something, and may slow the race to the bottom. You will ever stop it while the supply grossly exceeds the demand. It may make you feel good, but it is destroying your industry. Too many don'y care.
Last edited by bushy; 23rd Feb 2010 at 12:18.
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Bushy, that race has been on for years. Arguably it started the day that Virgin Blue commenced operations and has been gaining pace ever since.
... I'd say the day McGowan started with his C99's & B1900's endorsements.
Both groups are opposed to a Virgin move to bring pilots and cabin crew under one enterprise agreement.... and isn't that what PacBro is trying to do too?
Suggest THEY ALL (Poly-Pac Blue, VB & V) gather around the camp fire, so there's no undermining.
... I'd say the day McGowan started with his C99's & B1900's endorsements.
Both groups are opposed to a Virgin move to bring pilots and cabin crew under one enterprise agreement.... and isn't that what PacBro is trying to do too?
Suggest THEY ALL (Poly-Pac Blue, VB & V) gather around the camp fire, so there's no undermining.
... I'd say the day McGowan started with his C99's & B1900's endorsements.
Did they pay you while you were in Miami getting your endorsement?
...all this long before DJ came to our sunny shores, and Pornstar just picked up the ball and ran with it.
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Yep, great. All that stuff happened. It's in the PAST. Yes it was horrible, weren't Qantas pilots arrogant, weren't dispute pilots naive, weren't Jetstar pilots undermining everybody and weren't the rest of us all silly for just standing by doing nothing etc but for crying out loud LETS MOVE ON.
Bushy - "Pilots have to THINK, and get rid of that tunnel vision" Absolutely. well put.
Shark Patrol - "For this industry to have any future, a single pilot union is not only desirable ... it is essential!" Spot on.
Right now we are at a fork in the road. This is THE perfect time to join forces and intelligently, strategically and masterfully battle the greedy CEO's of the world like Dixon who happily sneer with delight as your profession is denegrated and (as the recent Good Weekend magazine nicely portrayed) take money straight out of your wallet and put it into theirs. Why battle each other when we should focus our attention on individuals such as that?
Time will tell whether in 20 years we will still all be bitching at each other on PPRuNe like babies or have actually done something tangible to change our fortunes. A good start would be for the AFAP to get on the blower to the AIPA and join with the VIPA and J* group etc to create one umbrella organisation.
For the sake of all of us let bygones be bygones and realise that our future globally is very bright and if some industriousness is employed, our future in Australia can also be very bright.
Bushy - "Pilots have to THINK, and get rid of that tunnel vision" Absolutely. well put.
Shark Patrol - "For this industry to have any future, a single pilot union is not only desirable ... it is essential!" Spot on.
Right now we are at a fork in the road. This is THE perfect time to join forces and intelligently, strategically and masterfully battle the greedy CEO's of the world like Dixon who happily sneer with delight as your profession is denegrated and (as the recent Good Weekend magazine nicely portrayed) take money straight out of your wallet and put it into theirs. Why battle each other when we should focus our attention on individuals such as that?
Time will tell whether in 20 years we will still all be bitching at each other on PPRuNe like babies or have actually done something tangible to change our fortunes. A good start would be for the AFAP to get on the blower to the AIPA and join with the VIPA and J* group etc to create one umbrella organisation.
For the sake of all of us let bygones be bygones and realise that our future globally is very bright and if some industriousness is employed, our future in Australia can also be very bright.