The Qantas dilemma: still your national carrier?
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Two small addendums.
First my observations of Gen Y were meant as an example of changing markets and demographics. The great success in the growth of air travel over the past 30 years has been making cheap air travel available to more and more people. Personally I cast no aspersions on the younger generation but merely observe and it is perfectly understandable they have these attitudes because they have been progressively done over by their elders and various antisocial forms of managerialism that have flourished in the name of corporate excess; the very same people who expect both loyalty and respect but who never had to pay for their training, pay for their endorsements, be paid half of what their peers obtained for the same work and had expectations of secure employment. If they are in it for themselves that is because they have to be that is the world we unwittingly created for them.
Never said I admired either Dixon or his methods so if I could clarify he is representative of a breed of take no prisoner managers who have hollowed out company after company all over the world under the guise of shareholder value adding but merely enriched themselves doing it. But if you put the actions into context then the actions are defensible and feasible, because if Geoff had'nt done it then somebody else would have, simple.
Just QF once was gives it no entitlement to what is or what is to be not in todays world.
First my observations of Gen Y were meant as an example of changing markets and demographics. The great success in the growth of air travel over the past 30 years has been making cheap air travel available to more and more people. Personally I cast no aspersions on the younger generation but merely observe and it is perfectly understandable they have these attitudes because they have been progressively done over by their elders and various antisocial forms of managerialism that have flourished in the name of corporate excess; the very same people who expect both loyalty and respect but who never had to pay for their training, pay for their endorsements, be paid half of what their peers obtained for the same work and had expectations of secure employment. If they are in it for themselves that is because they have to be that is the world we unwittingly created for them.
Never said I admired either Dixon or his methods so if I could clarify he is representative of a breed of take no prisoner managers who have hollowed out company after company all over the world under the guise of shareholder value adding but merely enriched themselves doing it. But if you put the actions into context then the actions are defensible and feasible, because if Geoff had'nt done it then somebody else would have, simple.
Just QF once was gives it no entitlement to what is or what is to be not in todays world.
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look at the state of every other legacy carrier in any country you like to name, they are all up the creek dependent on bail outs and mergers etc to continue to even trade, most of them are insolvent and have been for a long time
Was Lufthansa a legacy carrier? They look in pretty good shape to me
they colour the aeroplanes differently
I NEVER will (even though supposedly the A380 service is brilliant), because the offering on their DOMESTIC service is so poor I would never want to put up with that on a long-haul flight.
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Last time I checked Qantas competed with Virgin Blue and Tiger on domestic services - not the American domestics - so who really cares how they compare to an American domestic carrier - if i was in America I certainly wouldn't be booking a Qantas domestic flight. Also I found it odd someone commented on the fact that I said I would never fly Qantas International because I dont like the Qantas Domestic Product. Yes, I understand the product will be different give the different nature of short-haul and long-haul (and even commented that I have heard good things about the A380 product), but the thing is, I would argue the vast majority of Australians will fly domestically before they fly internationally. The Qantas domestic product is what most Australians will judge Qantas on. If it is not up to standard (which I think it isn't especially when it is marketed as superior to the others) that does not give a good impression of Qantas Group as a whole. If the domestic product was upgraded and I did find it to be superior maybe I would consider flying Qantas interntaionally - but at the moment I know the domestic isn't too my liking, why would I waste a significant amount of money to fly them internationally?
I would argue Virgin Blue has a much superior domestic service than that offered by Qantas. In my opinion Virgin Blue has friendlier staff than Qantas who on the whole appear to actually enjoy their job. The inflight entertainment is streets ahead, including in the inflight magazine (The Qantas one is full of ads). The interior cabins are no where near as shabby and from what we have heard on here Virgin is getting ready to replace some of these planes already. I personally think the food service on Virgin is also superiror - most domestic flights in Australia aren't that long - you don't need a full meal and I'd rather have something that I know what i'm getting rather than a pot luck meal. I've personally found that Virgin has greater on time running than Qantas and actually apologies for their delays (20 mins late is still a delay in my opinon, Qantas usually acts like nothing happened). The other thing I enjoy when I fly Virgin Blue is that quite often we are allowed to disembark and board via the rear door, for the life of me I don't know why Qantas won't allow this to happen.
I won't argue Tiger has a superior product to Qantas, although the few flights I have had on Tiger have ran smoother and had better service than any flight i've had on Qantas. I will point out though, that their inflight magazine at half the size has probably 10 times the content of the Qantas magazine.
I wasn't actually going to post on this and only did so after someone commented on generation Y. The remark was I am the generation that Qantas should be focussing on to try and increase its business. I was just trying to say why my preference is not for Qantas and none of the responses have convinced me otherwise. Never have I said here that I am a seasoned traveller (I'm certainly not now, but in the future hope to be) and you can take my opinion as you will. Maybe my opinion is different to that of other people of my generation - but maybe it isn't and maybe its time Qantas took some notice.
I would argue Virgin Blue has a much superior domestic service than that offered by Qantas. In my opinion Virgin Blue has friendlier staff than Qantas who on the whole appear to actually enjoy their job. The inflight entertainment is streets ahead, including in the inflight magazine (The Qantas one is full of ads). The interior cabins are no where near as shabby and from what we have heard on here Virgin is getting ready to replace some of these planes already. I personally think the food service on Virgin is also superiror - most domestic flights in Australia aren't that long - you don't need a full meal and I'd rather have something that I know what i'm getting rather than a pot luck meal. I've personally found that Virgin has greater on time running than Qantas and actually apologies for their delays (20 mins late is still a delay in my opinon, Qantas usually acts like nothing happened). The other thing I enjoy when I fly Virgin Blue is that quite often we are allowed to disembark and board via the rear door, for the life of me I don't know why Qantas won't allow this to happen.
I won't argue Tiger has a superior product to Qantas, although the few flights I have had on Tiger have ran smoother and had better service than any flight i've had on Qantas. I will point out though, that their inflight magazine at half the size has probably 10 times the content of the Qantas magazine.
I wasn't actually going to post on this and only did so after someone commented on generation Y. The remark was I am the generation that Qantas should be focussing on to try and increase its business. I was just trying to say why my preference is not for Qantas and none of the responses have convinced me otherwise. Never have I said here that I am a seasoned traveller (I'm certainly not now, but in the future hope to be) and you can take my opinion as you will. Maybe my opinion is different to that of other people of my generation - but maybe it isn't and maybe its time Qantas took some notice.
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A couple of days ago I paxed on a QF A330 to Perth. It was a clean, one year old internationally configured -200 with full IFE (working) that departed and arrived precisely on time. Lunch was served with a choice of meals and free beer and wine for Y class. The crew was a LH crew, they were efficient and friendly. The captain made brief but informative P.A's and the aircraft arrived safely and routinely. The bags arrived swiftly to the carousel.
It was hell I tell you.
Before anyone gets started, yes I am aware that there can be delays and other problems. But if anyone on this particular flight found anything to complain about then I will just have to accept that there is just no pleasing some people.
It was hell I tell you.
Before anyone gets started, yes I am aware that there can be delays and other problems. But if anyone on this particular flight found anything to complain about then I will just have to accept that there is just no pleasing some people.
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I am sorry but I suspect there are a lot of cabin crew posting here or people who have no idea of the reality of the situation.
The service is crap repeat crap, the cabin crew generally consider you a burden (apologies to the good ones) they consider themselves 'safety staff' instead of serving the punters like they are supposed to, with a smile and without attitude. Qantas hasnt got a hope to compete with SIA or the like. It will continue to decline whilst this attitude remains, I for one am a little sad how bad it has become.
Dont shoot the messager but sometimes truth tastes bitter!
The service is crap repeat crap, the cabin crew generally consider you a burden (apologies to the good ones) they consider themselves 'safety staff' instead of serving the punters like they are supposed to, with a smile and without attitude. Qantas hasnt got a hope to compete with SIA or the like. It will continue to decline whilst this attitude remains, I for one am a little sad how bad it has become.
Dont shoot the messager but sometimes truth tastes bitter!
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Granted that, Qantas staff don't do grovelling subservience very well.
Those who want [read need?] that style of service are always going to find the competition's offerings more to their liking.
We all know the type........
Those who want [read need?] that style of service are always going to find the competition's offerings more to their liking.
We all know the type........
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Kremin,
I've had the same. Then Perth up to Asia - likewise a good, solid product and I am looking forward to doing it all again in three weeks or so.
Orangputi,
... not necessarily, maybe just some who know that crew generally try to do their absolute best with the tools available, day-in, day-out.
We must fly on different airlines. Mine has the big kangaroo on the tail and it competes very well with the other god-only-knows-how-many airlines I've regularly flown on in the last 20 years or so.
luckily the latter category are still the majority so by your use of 'generally', you've just insulted the 'good ones'.
by law, that is what they are primarily there for, so I'm glad they have that straight.
I've never seen that on any airline's conditions of carriage. But, I always get a smile back when I smile at them.
Like Dixon or not (and I don't), QF has a huge cash pile by airline metrics and my experiences of SIA business class 'service' have already been placed on these boards.
I won't but your post isn't.
Ditch Handle,
Unable to sleep at dark o'clock, wanting a bit of a chat, I prefer someone who can actually hold a conversation and is not startled and scared to see a punter pop his head through the galley curtain and wasn't just hired for how they'll look parading around a hotel pool.
I've had the same. Then Perth up to Asia - likewise a good, solid product and I am looking forward to doing it all again in three weeks or so.Orangputi,
there are a lot of cabin crew posting here
The service is crap repeat crap
the cabin crew generally consider you a burden (apologies to the good ones)
they consider themselves 'safety staff'
instead of serving the punters like they are supposed to, with a smile and without attitude
Qantas hasnt got a hope to compete with SIA or the like
Dont shoot the messager but sometimes truth tastes bitter
Ditch Handle,
Unable to sleep at dark o'clock, wanting a bit of a chat, I prefer someone who can actually hold a conversation and is not startled and scared to see a punter pop his head through the galley curtain and wasn't just hired for how they'll look parading around a hotel pool.
Last edited by Taildragger67; 11th Dec 2009 at 07:55.
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wow crticised by two flight attendants no wonder punters are leaving in droves good luck with it all, I may have been spot on with the attitude bit, perhaps some real fare paying passengers might like to comment?
Anyway you cant be told and the truth does sometimes elicit responses of similar nature. Perhaps a little self examination of what is going wrong may be in order to improve things a bit. You see I dont have to apologise in anyway as I am a full fair paying punter with choices just like a lot of others.
Anyway Good luck with it all
Orangputi out!
Anyway you cant be told and the truth does sometimes elicit responses of similar nature. Perhaps a little self examination of what is going wrong may be in order to improve things a bit. You see I dont have to apologise in anyway as I am a full fair paying punter with choices just like a lot of others.
Anyway Good luck with it all
Orangputi out!
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some real fare paying passengers might like to comment
Orangputi,
My issue with your comments is that you have yourself 'shot the messenger'; I wrote earlier that QF punter-facing staff, on the whole and in my own experience, do their best with the increasingly limited tools available to them; those limitations are imposed from above. Yes I agree you get some time-servers, but like you, I'm generalising.
So what I am saying is, if you think that all the evils you describe are real, then place the blame where it is due, and don't unload on the poor mug who is trying to deliver good service but will also spring into action and do their best to get you out if the landing goes t!ts-up.
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I can add
to the conversation as i do both, working for the big aussie airline but also travel commercialy on different carriers internationally. QF can compete with all carriers. all carriers have some sort of faults when you travel on them regualy (even SQ has its challenges,especially financial ones in the last 6 month). 
GD legacy of opting to have 2 european, limited Asian and US destination has greatly influenced the current situation. Also the lack of "right aircraft mix" (777old technology)does not help either.
I did travel on the new domestic A332 interstate and it was a vast improvment on the 767(IFE excellent).
never a dull moment in this industry
GD legacy of opting to have 2 european, limited Asian and US destination has greatly influenced the current situation. Also the lack of "right aircraft mix" (777old technology)does not help either.
I did travel on the new domestic A332 interstate and it was a vast improvment on the 767(IFE excellent).
never a dull moment in this industry
"Granted that, Qantas staff don't do grovelling subservience very well."
I still remember a family of Poms boarding at LHR mid 70's. Mum and Dad and Two little kids. They were migrating to Australia and their mixed feelings at leaving England were plain to see on their faces.
I knew this because a QF Flight Attendant had seen the same thing, engaged them in conversation, found out that they were migrants, got the kids orange juice "Now this is bottled Australian sunshine", introduced Mum and Dad to Australian beer and wine, found their destination city, told them how much they were going to like it, how lucky they were, and started telling them about the places to visit and things for the kids to do when they arrived. I have never ever seen such a virtuoso performance, it did QF and Australia proud. Wouldn't see it today.
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Qantas Lowers The Bar
A 1970s flight attendant candidate went through a quite rigorous interview process to be employed.95% of QF CC were then male
Not today.
Qantas began lowering the bar(and wages) about ten years ago.
The service onboard today reflects this.Gen Y are now entering the workforce.They are challenging employees.Just ask the CC manager at Virgin Blue.
Dont blame the employee.Blame the process.
Sing Air girls still have to endure a swimsuit parade as part of their interview.Once they reach a certain age they are out the door.It might be acceptable in a benevolent dictatorship but not in western democracies.Asian women today are treated like their caucasian sisters were in the 1950s.Many western men yearn for those bygone days.These men have a name: chauvinistic misogynists.A name that would apply to most 40 plus males who travel today
Not today.
Qantas began lowering the bar(and wages) about ten years ago.
The service onboard today reflects this.Gen Y are now entering the workforce.They are challenging employees.Just ask the CC manager at Virgin Blue.
Dont blame the employee.Blame the process.
Sing Air girls still have to endure a swimsuit parade as part of their interview.Once they reach a certain age they are out the door.It might be acceptable in a benevolent dictatorship but not in western democracies.Asian women today are treated like their caucasian sisters were in the 1950s.Many western men yearn for those bygone days.These men have a name: chauvinistic misogynists.A name that would apply to most 40 plus males who travel today
Last edited by Ka.Boom; 11th Dec 2009 at 20:48.
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If you read some of Orangputi's previous posts then you will see how many times he tells us about the wonderful Asian f/a's and their looks.So it's no surprise that he would love to dream about the swim suit parade and wish he was one of the interviewers.
That is what this is all about and nothing QF could do will change his idea of what cabin crew should look like.
It's not in Australian culture to be subservient.That means flight deck crew to the captain or f'a's to the passengers.There is nothing we can do to help those men who want nothing more than to oggle asian f/a's.Come to think about it subservience has nothing to do with it rather some mens preoccupation with Asian women.
I have lost count of the times that a passenger has wanted to talk about anything in the middle of the night.Whether that is politics,climate change,real estate prices,the weather or anything and they always comment that it is something they cannot get from f/a's on Asian carriers.
I know that before I worked for QF and had been travelling around Europe for 12 months when I was coming home the sight of the QF aircraft made me feel I was closer to home already.
No matter how bad the management is QF will always be the Australian international carrier
That is what this is all about and nothing QF could do will change his idea of what cabin crew should look like.
It's not in Australian culture to be subservient.That means flight deck crew to the captain or f'a's to the passengers.There is nothing we can do to help those men who want nothing more than to oggle asian f/a's.Come to think about it subservience has nothing to do with it rather some mens preoccupation with Asian women.
I have lost count of the times that a passenger has wanted to talk about anything in the middle of the night.Whether that is politics,climate change,real estate prices,the weather or anything and they always comment that it is something they cannot get from f/a's on Asian carriers.
I know that before I worked for QF and had been travelling around Europe for 12 months when I was coming home the sight of the QF aircraft made me feel I was closer to home already.
No matter how bad the management is QF will always be the Australian international carrier
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Qantas The National Carrier
A national carrier reflects the social values of the country it represents.
Qantas does this well.
Australia does not tolerate or accept sexism.
If that's what you want as part of the onboard experience try another carrier instead of bitching about it on PPrune
Qantas does this well.
Australia does not tolerate or accept sexism.
If that's what you want as part of the onboard experience try another carrier instead of bitching about it on PPrune
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People go on about SIA, yeah maybe some of their flight attendants have a pretty face, but in fact their service is generally woeful, esp in business class. A lot of those girls spit venom and breathe fire behind the exterior facade in the aircraft! I know that because I have met hundreds of them in a prior life working for an SIA subsidary company! But I reckon Joe public went for Singair years ago as their aircraft were newer and their IFE was light years ahead of QF's, even the A380's IFE is around about the same product as SIA had well over 10 years ago in their 777's!
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Yes I can see everything is fine with QF not
Hey redTbar,
If you spent as much time looking into my previous posts as you did providing the service the punters deserve on board you would be halfway there.
As Qantas clearly is clearly lacking as a product 'on board' probably means that there is a problem somewhere what do you think?
I agree with sunfish it was once a great Airline and arrogance/ cutbacks/ self importance and the world owes me a job attitude has crippled the product.
Anyway good luck with it all from a full J class paying punter
(Hat coat another Airline who knows how to treat its clients rather than a burden)
If you spent as much time looking into my previous posts as you did providing the service the punters deserve on board you would be halfway there.
As Qantas clearly is clearly lacking as a product 'on board' probably means that there is a problem somewhere what do you think?
I agree with sunfish it was once a great Airline and arrogance/ cutbacks/ self importance and the world owes me a job attitude has crippled the product.
Anyway good luck with it all from a full J class paying punter
(Hat coat another Airline who knows how to treat its clients rather than a burden)