The Men Who Killed Qantas
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: gold coast QLD australia
Age: 86
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For Christmas I got three copies, yes three, my relatives so kindly thinking of my interests. My summary at the present time is there are a few mistakes (and what was that flight attendant who joined the mile high with some film star or whatever) doing in it? But basically was fairly on the money. The only thing that bothered me was the general public could easily get the impression that QF just lumbers from on disaster to another, without any normal periods of safe flying. The first chapter really shows the appalling lack of training re cabon brakes, flaps 25 and reverse thrust. No wonder many senior Capts told them to stick up it up their ar$e (and believe me they did) previous to the "incident," shame it did not go down the ranks. It truly bothers a old pilot like me that the ability to think for themselves has been taken away, and their working lives revolve around a manual. If ever there was a reason for a very senior pilot and engineer being consultants to the board than this is it, they would never passed this sort of stupidity in the first place.
Dear RedTBar,
Why do I need to explain the "cargo price fixing rort"? Anyone with more than a passing interest in things airlines would know that QANTAS - along with a number of other carriers - was prosecuted for that. It was widely reported in the media, and indeed acknowledged by the company in the Annual Report.
Do you think that they are going to do it again? Hardly. So perhaps they have learnt their lesson. And I bet they didn't need to read "The Men who killed QANTAS' to adjust their behaviour.
I am rather certain that my head remains clear of the sand. QANTAS will still be here after OhSpareMe and RedTBar are long gone. QANTAS will still be doing a good job - not a perfect job - but a good one.
BTW are you Tech Crew?
As for:
I think you need a better idiom. I don't think I am hypocritical when I say that the release of the book was strategically timed, just that it was opportunistic. With 35000 employees it was probably guaranteed a few thousand in the Christmas stockings.
On the number of book sales (provided by Teresa Green) I rest my case.
For TeresaGreen - I acknowledge your opinion but when I was on the -400 I don't recall too many Captains complaining about using Flap 25. In fact I think I heard of - yes heard of - one complaining directly to the Chief Pilot. Up until QF1 (and for sometime after) the Flap 25/Idle Reverse was used, in my opinion, in the majority of landings including during cyclic renewals. It remains a valid landing technique to be used in the appropriate circumstances. The greatest criticism of that procedure was in that it was not properly risk analysed before being implemented.
I don't wish to drag this thread back to over analysing QF1 as over the years that has been done to death. But I wish to say that the major cause of that accident was not due to the crew intention of using the Flap25/Idle Reverse landing technique. That is, of course, my own humble opinion, having digested the ATSB report and spoken with the acutal crew members involved.
Also I am not sure having a pilot consulting to the board would have made any difference in this case as the implementation and awareness of the Flap25/Idle Reverse technique never made it up the hierachy past Flight Ops. In any case when required (or if requested) the Board has specialist advice on flying aircraft from the Chief Pilot.
Why do I need to explain the "cargo price fixing rort"? Anyone with more than a passing interest in things airlines would know that QANTAS - along with a number of other carriers - was prosecuted for that. It was widely reported in the media, and indeed acknowledged by the company in the Annual Report.
Do you think that they are going to do it again? Hardly. So perhaps they have learnt their lesson. And I bet they didn't need to read "The Men who killed QANTAS' to adjust their behaviour.
I am rather certain that my head remains clear of the sand. QANTAS will still be here after OhSpareMe and RedTBar are long gone. QANTAS will still be doing a good job - not a perfect job - but a good one.
BTW are you Tech Crew?
As for:
This is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
On the number of book sales (provided by Teresa Green) I rest my case.
For Christmas I got three copies, yes three, my relatives so kindly thinking of my interests
For TeresaGreen - I acknowledge your opinion but when I was on the -400 I don't recall too many Captains complaining about using Flap 25. In fact I think I heard of - yes heard of - one complaining directly to the Chief Pilot. Up until QF1 (and for sometime after) the Flap 25/Idle Reverse was used, in my opinion, in the majority of landings including during cyclic renewals. It remains a valid landing technique to be used in the appropriate circumstances. The greatest criticism of that procedure was in that it was not properly risk analysed before being implemented.
I don't wish to drag this thread back to over analysing QF1 as over the years that has been done to death. But I wish to say that the major cause of that accident was not due to the crew intention of using the Flap25/Idle Reverse landing technique. That is, of course, my own humble opinion, having digested the ATSB report and spoken with the acutal crew members involved.
Also I am not sure having a pilot consulting to the board would have made any difference in this case as the implementation and awareness of the Flap25/Idle Reverse technique never made it up the hierachy past Flight Ops. In any case when required (or if requested) the Board has specialist advice on flying aircraft from the Chief Pilot.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You would think that a book with such a title would've blow the lid off QF's management and it's decrepit behaviour full stop, it didn't, as stated earlier it was just a collection of 'stories' put together from say newspaper article research, in depth research didn't seem to play apart.
Also you would think that the Engineers' dispute, the only real one under John Howard's tyrannical rule besides the wharfies would've rated more a mention, openly agreed by QF execs as costing them over 150 million just to fight it and countless millions maybe even a billion in forward bookings and reputation. That dispute exposed the despisement QF management had for even it's most trusted and valued employees, their complete and utter disregard for anyone but themselves and their unadulturated greed in continuing to feed unabated at the trough.
The simple fact that that dispute and it's victory by the engineers broke the glass ceiling that had reduced ALL employees at QF to nothing more than 3% PA should have been a few chapters on it's own, once again a little in depth research wouldv'e provided fair dinkum reading.
Also you would think that the Engineers' dispute, the only real one under John Howard's tyrannical rule besides the wharfies would've rated more a mention, openly agreed by QF execs as costing them over 150 million just to fight it and countless millions maybe even a billion in forward bookings and reputation. That dispute exposed the despisement QF management had for even it's most trusted and valued employees, their complete and utter disregard for anyone but themselves and their unadulturated greed in continuing to feed unabated at the trough.
The simple fact that that dispute and it's victory by the engineers broke the glass ceiling that had reduced ALL employees at QF to nothing more than 3% PA should have been a few chapters on it's own, once again a little in depth research wouldv'e provided fair dinkum reading.
Registered User **
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had no idea that this was going to be so formal but 
Dear Oh Spare Me,
Because it is one example of poor and as it turned out illegal management decisions in the book which you have rubbished without reading it.By the way stealing a few glances at it in a book shop does not give you the ability to be able to give an accurate synopsis.
To you it might have been or more to the point wish it might have been but to anyone else it has not.In fact it is still an ongoing saga so I can understand why you and others want it to be pushed under the carpet.
How do you know what present and future mangers will do especially when no manager in Australia was punished for their part in this costly mess?
The book is not meant to act as a sort of penance for the persons responsible but for everyone else who would like to know what happened.
You obviously have a short term memory and have not read the chapter about the failed and ill conceived (for Australians and employees) takeover bid.
As I said
Dear Oh Spare Me,
Why do I need to explain the "cargo price fixing rort"?
Anyone with more than a passing interest in things airlines would know that QANTAS - along with a number of other carriers - was prosecuted for that.
Do you think that they are going to do it again? Hardly. So perhaps they have learnt their lesson. And I bet they didn't need to read "The Men who killed QANTAS' to adjust their behaviour.
The book is not meant to act as a sort of penance for the persons responsible but for everyone else who would like to know what happened.
QANTAS will still be here after OhSpareMe and RedTBar are long gone
As I said
You cannot objectively analyze any area of society if you have not read or acknowledge the mistakes the participants have made in the past including your own organisation.
To do otherwise is simply to be delusional or at best disingenuous.
To do otherwise is simply to be delusional or at best disingenuous.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Darwin
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To further understand the greed that exists within the management levels of Qantas I wonder who has noticed the following category slip into the staff travel pages.
41 Executive Trip
This priority is for executive level employees(with grade 5 and above) and eligible Group A beneficiaries travelling on Qantas flights.
What does this mean?
Every single Executive (grade 5 and above) and there are approximately 1000 of them, will be uplifted before any other staff member except Long Service Trips with priority 40Y. This is a significant change to the staff travel benefits of every employee within the Qantas Group and should be seen for what it is.
This priority also applies to domestic staff travel and therefore the date of joining formula has been thrown out of the window. You will sit there all day whilst the execs and there families show up and bump you off. Remember there are 1000 of them.
Feel engaged now people?
Time for a revolution. This stinks and must be fought by all loyal and long serving Qantas employees. Advise your colleagues and representative organisations.
41 Executive Trip
This priority is for executive level employees(with grade 5 and above) and eligible Group A beneficiaries travelling on Qantas flights.
What does this mean?
Every single Executive (grade 5 and above) and there are approximately 1000 of them, will be uplifted before any other staff member except Long Service Trips with priority 40Y. This is a significant change to the staff travel benefits of every employee within the Qantas Group and should be seen for what it is.
This priority also applies to domestic staff travel and therefore the date of joining formula has been thrown out of the window. You will sit there all day whilst the execs and there families show up and bump you off. Remember there are 1000 of them.
Feel engaged now people?
Time for a revolution. This stinks and must be fought by all loyal and long serving Qantas employees. Advise your colleagues and representative organisations.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: on skybeds
Age: 43
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
looks like
certain issues don,t last long by certain moderators. I hope the resident union blokes/ladies pick this (QF execs staff travel) one up and start doing something about it. 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On the chopping board.
Posts: 929
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
I am very sure that the watering down of staff travel privileges (due to the Jetstar model), combined with the removal of salary sacrificing of portable computers will develope into an EBA bargaining point for unions in upcoming negotiations. These 2 factors alone easliy equate to a loss of several thousand dollars P/A for many staff members.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bottom side of up
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But what these computer screen jockeys with university degrees don't realise is that they may save a few dollars here and there and feel good about their success and how they beat down those pesky pilot conditions but those of us with control over the fuel ordering can blow thousands of dollars out the the tailpipe with the stroke of a pen. Every $10 they charge or dock us equates to an extra 1000kg of gas in the tanks. Now that's what I call ENGAGEMENT!!!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Down Under
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jed - I could only hazard a guess as to the target of your "computer screen jockeys with university degrees" stereotype - but lets not tar all of us that fill that decription with the same brush. There's many such people throughout the company that also play a vital role in the operation. I assure you that we too must fight for our conditions and far too regularly can only shake our heads in disbelief at our mgmt's latest "direction".
Registered User **
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem that the employees have is that every section of the airline thinks that they run it.
I have seen time and again one section working against each other or at least not helping during a dispute.
Each section is only interested in themselves and the company not only knows it but is happy to help that along.
Divide and conquer.
What would be the best for us all would be for a single airline employees union however for the obvious self interest,political and egotistical reasons that will never happen.
I have seen time and again one section working against each other or at least not helping during a dispute.
Each section is only interested in themselves and the company not only knows it but is happy to help that along.
Divide and conquer.
What would be the best for us all would be for a single airline employees union however for the obvious self interest,political and egotistical reasons that will never happen.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well in fact we did have a single Bargaining Unit for EBA 1 going back to the early 90's following the SEP.
The ACTU under senior Industrial Officer Les Ayres led the negotiations for wage outcome at e very senior level in Qantas. We all got the same wage outcomes and each union dealt with its own details in a series of appendices which were handed up in the AIRC by the ACTU and the relevant Union.
there was a real strength in that "Single Bargaining Unit" and the Company hated the ramifications. SO what the Company did was got a union to break away (TWU actually) and do a separate deal which broke the "single bargaining Unit". In return the TWU got a good deal in the first instance for their members and then as the unit lost grip, the rest of the unions fell like the proverbial dominos.
We now all bargain at different times, are held to ransom by the Company and have no "joint" or collective strength anymore
The only group from memory that were not part of that arrangement were AIPA as they were not affiliated with the ACTU. Ian Woods the previous AIPA president affiliated with the ACTU upon his teams election a couple of years ago.
Here endeth the history lesson
The ACTU under senior Industrial Officer Les Ayres led the negotiations for wage outcome at e very senior level in Qantas. We all got the same wage outcomes and each union dealt with its own details in a series of appendices which were handed up in the AIRC by the ACTU and the relevant Union.
there was a real strength in that "Single Bargaining Unit" and the Company hated the ramifications. SO what the Company did was got a union to break away (TWU actually) and do a separate deal which broke the "single bargaining Unit". In return the TWU got a good deal in the first instance for their members and then as the unit lost grip, the rest of the unions fell like the proverbial dominos.
We now all bargain at different times, are held to ransom by the Company and have no "joint" or collective strength anymore
The only group from memory that were not part of that arrangement were AIPA as they were not affiliated with the ACTU. Ian Woods the previous AIPA president affiliated with the ACTU upon his teams election a couple of years ago.
Here endeth the history lesson
Registered User **
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here endeth the history lesson
however for the obvious self interest,political and egotistical reasons that will never happen.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Holland
Age: 60
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct !!
Nice one Jed,
Finally somebody just as disturbed as me !! Mate, spot on. Let them play their games, these money grabbing grubs and pen pushing overpaid gimps. Bring it on. I too, am more than happy to play my part in reversing the revenue climb by costing these chumps a few thousand dollars everytime they bend me over a barrell and deliver another thrust that diminishes my career earning capacity!
Nothing better than the satisfaction of creating a 'level playing field'. Parasites.
but those of us with control over the fuel ordering can blow thousands of dollars out the the tailpipe with the stroke of a pen. Every $10 they charge or dock us equates to an extra 1000kg of gas in the tanks. Now that's what I call ENGAGEMENT!!!
Nothing better than the satisfaction of creating a 'level playing field'. Parasites.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Holland
Age: 60
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Naked Leapfrog !
Teresa green,
When Darth and Marg fronted the media to announce the deal was done, and they started grinning, hugging and virtually dry humping I thought that a porno movie was about to be played out !!
Are they going to make it into a movie? The possibilities are endless, John Travolta, Humpfrey B. Bear, and who gets to play Marg? Cannot wait!
