MPL - dead or just no publicty
MPL - dead or just no publicty
Its been a while since anyhig has been writen on the MPL, in any literature. I know a few companies in Oz are spending bucketloads of cash in preparation, but overall it seems to have slipped below the radar. Even on PPRuNe.
Thoughts anyone?
Thoughts anyone?
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Airline management are thinking a number of steps ahead on this.
What happens when Management finally succeed in dumbing down the piloting job to a tradesman type equivalent with commensurate pay to boot .Yet the cost of achieving said dream in the traditional way by learning to fly on real aeroplanes doesn't get any cheaper ,does it ? What will that do to the pilot demand/supply equation?
If you are thinking it will help the pay/conditions struggle, sorry ,I don't believe it will thanks to the MPL. Most airlines own simulators. What does a simulator cost to run? How much do you think an Airline sponsored MPL course would really cost an airline, particularly if the airlines package the deal in such a way that the empoyee ends up bearing a major proportion of the cost as is now occuring with airlines charging new employee's for their endorsement.So the future as I see it will be buy your job, work for not much more than an average wage , if you don't like it , bugger off, because there is little to no financial risk to the airlines.That is how I believe management plan to manage the potential pilot supply problem in years to come, by subsidising the cost component of the MPL to prospective wannabe future pilots in order to achieve the numbers they require. Unfortunately this will also spell the end of GA as a consequence.
What happens when Management finally succeed in dumbing down the piloting job to a tradesman type equivalent with commensurate pay to boot .Yet the cost of achieving said dream in the traditional way by learning to fly on real aeroplanes doesn't get any cheaper ,does it ? What will that do to the pilot demand/supply equation?
If you are thinking it will help the pay/conditions struggle, sorry ,I don't believe it will thanks to the MPL. Most airlines own simulators. What does a simulator cost to run? How much do you think an Airline sponsored MPL course would really cost an airline, particularly if the airlines package the deal in such a way that the empoyee ends up bearing a major proportion of the cost as is now occuring with airlines charging new employee's for their endorsement.So the future as I see it will be buy your job, work for not much more than an average wage , if you don't like it , bugger off, because there is little to no financial risk to the airlines.That is how I believe management plan to manage the potential pilot supply problem in years to come, by subsidising the cost component of the MPL to prospective wannabe future pilots in order to achieve the numbers they require. Unfortunately this will also spell the end of GA as a consequence.
Last edited by blow.n.gasket; 17th Aug 2009 at 10:26.
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Try working with Aloha Airlines in Hawaii. According to my source who flew Emb 145's for a regional operator in USA an F/O on a 737/DC9 (?) gets paid $25 USD per flying hour.
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And are they using the MPL in the USA now??
Using the MPL in Australia will stop the flood of temporary airline wannabies in GA, and make conditions better.
Only GA wannabies will go to GA then and they will work to make conditions better. Genuine operators in GA will have serious, long term pilots who are worth more.
Tee Emm's post shows where Australia is heading if we continue with the present system.
Using the MPL in Australia will stop the flood of temporary airline wannabies in GA, and make conditions better.
Only GA wannabies will go to GA then and they will work to make conditions better. Genuine operators in GA will have serious, long term pilots who are worth more.
Tee Emm's post shows where Australia is heading if we continue with the present system.
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Bushy - what a lovely dreamy place you live in. The GA operators will tell their pilots that current wages (post mpl) are not far less than airline wages and will have no reason to raise their wages. This will be in the face of a trickle of pilots actually going through GA.
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I believe the MPL system requires cadets to be tied to a specific airline from reasonably early on in the course. (The reduced hours / reduced cost thing only comes by teaching to a specific set of SOPs throughout the course.)
The economy being what it is, I suspect that most airlines are unwilling to commit to hiring cadets in the near future. So MPL courses will be struggling to guarantee places to graduates - which (unlike CPL/IR courses) is a bit of a problem.
Perhaps the MPL will become more popular again during the next up-swing, say 2011.
The economy being what it is, I suspect that most airlines are unwilling to commit to hiring cadets in the near future. So MPL courses will be struggling to guarantee places to graduates - which (unlike CPL/IR courses) is a bit of a problem.
Perhaps the MPL will become more popular again during the next up-swing, say 2011.
The main disadvantage for the self-funded is that the MPL locks you in to a particular type fairly early, ie MPL gained in B737 simulator is no use for A320. So the sponsor airline - if there is a sponsor airline - needs to know well in advance its crew and fleet forecasts.
The main disadvantage with our present system for the direct entry airline cadet is that a lot of time is put into developing single-pilot IFR skills just to get through the command instrument rating, then much of the one-man-band stuff has to be unlearned quickly. Also, some light twin techniques are negative learning for immediate transition to jet operations e.g. the need to be quick on the draw when shutting down an engine for fear it won't feather, or worse, won't fly.
For those countries that don't have a large enough GA industry to use as a training ground - ie most of the world outside Africa, Australia, the USA and Canada - the MPL makes more sense than the existing system. If the Australian training industry or CASA ignores this fact, we will miss out on a lot of future earnings.
For those countries that do have a large enough GA industry to select pilots from, I hope airlines continue to use it for what it is worth. There is no substitute for experience.
The main disadvantage with our present system for the direct entry airline cadet is that a lot of time is put into developing single-pilot IFR skills just to get through the command instrument rating, then much of the one-man-band stuff has to be unlearned quickly. Also, some light twin techniques are negative learning for immediate transition to jet operations e.g. the need to be quick on the draw when shutting down an engine for fear it won't feather, or worse, won't fly.
For those countries that don't have a large enough GA industry to use as a training ground - ie most of the world outside Africa, Australia, the USA and Canada - the MPL makes more sense than the existing system. If the Australian training industry or CASA ignores this fact, we will miss out on a lot of future earnings.
For those countries that do have a large enough GA industry to select pilots from, I hope airlines continue to use it for what it is worth. There is no substitute for experience.
Na, MPL has not slipped off the radar. I'm starting mine on Sunday.
If you've got any negative comments about the MPL, may I kindly ask you to f off. I've heard them all already. I've made my mind up
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Plenty of barbed comments above to respond to but not worth it.
...so I'll make my comments from a "well-versed" position of a 20 year aviation carreer so far, having spanned both feast and famine in pilot job markets.
Personally I've had to be very resourceful, persistent and ingenious to keep my career alive over the years... all very honestly and without cutting others' grass, I might add!
There are many on here from a more experienced background also but as much as I (we?) believe, that you can not substitute hands-on experience, MPL is here and will stay, as Airlines have no other option in the forthcoming desperate short supply of skilled "drivers". They simply have to "get pilot bums on seats" right now, just to gain hours experience, for the coming massive shortfall.
Shortage you say? Yes! There is right now, of suitably skilled/endorsed pilots with experience, in many sections of the globe. Just scan the multitude of Pilot-Labour-supply websites that abound! People are also choosing other more rewarding and family friendly careers, over our "accountant-run" and "Fatigue-ridden" Airline industry.
...but fellas, a $$$ rewarding career doesn't have to be on Jets with the big Shiny Jet Syndrome
... there is plenty to be made on the Regional Turbo-Props, as a Checky/Trainer or experienced operator, which in many cases provide better regional living away from the ****e.
Each to there own I guess, as are their dreams.
I only hope that you "keep your dreams alive", otherwise you've got no chance.
Happy Landings
...so I'll make my comments from a "well-versed" position of a 20 year aviation carreer so far, having spanned both feast and famine in pilot job markets.
Personally I've had to be very resourceful, persistent and ingenious to keep my career alive over the years... all very honestly and without cutting others' grass, I might add!
There are many on here from a more experienced background also but as much as I (we?) believe, that you can not substitute hands-on experience, MPL is here and will stay, as Airlines have no other option in the forthcoming desperate short supply of skilled "drivers". They simply have to "get pilot bums on seats" right now, just to gain hours experience, for the coming massive shortfall.
Shortage you say? Yes! There is right now, of suitably skilled/endorsed pilots with experience, in many sections of the globe. Just scan the multitude of Pilot-Labour-supply websites that abound! People are also choosing other more rewarding and family friendly careers, over our "accountant-run" and "Fatigue-ridden" Airline industry.
...but fellas, a $$$ rewarding career doesn't have to be on Jets with the big Shiny Jet Syndrome
... there is plenty to be made on the Regional Turbo-Props, as a Checky/Trainer or experienced operator, which in many cases provide better regional living away from the ****e. Each to there own I guess, as are their dreams.
I only hope that you "keep your dreams alive", otherwise you've got no chance.
Happy Landings
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then much of the one-man-band stuff has to be unlearned quickly
Instead learn how to programme a computer to both fly and navigate on your behalf and yet be still given a command instrument rating on the automatic pilot. Money for old rope compared with single pilot IFR.
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I hope they can it soon - my CAO is overflowing! 
Edit: In the event of the succeeding post to this one, I have deleted half this post and empathise with flapsfive, that's almost as bad as coming home from a big night and going on PPRuNe.
Last edited by PyroTek; 26th Aug 2009 at 00:14.
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Can I just appologise for that post which was apparently made by me yesterday. (I have since deleted it.)
Unfortunately that's apparently what happens if you leave your computer logged in to PPRuNe and have friends round.
I should know better
FF
Unfortunately that's apparently what happens if you leave your computer logged in to PPRuNe and have friends round.
I should know better
FF
A375 the 'one man band' stuff that I was alluding to that is inappropriate to multi pilot ops is the need to read and do checklists on one's own, tune navaids, feather engines, operate gear and flaps etc while flying. If trainees go straight from this environment to airline flying and try that on they will get severely slapped down, so why spend big bucks teaching them to do it that way?
Basic hand flying ability SHOULD still be part of the MPL syllabus, and I would hope that it will be tested at every stage of training via system failures etc. Realistic system failures can reinforce the need to maintain basic skills and will have something they can relate to. Endless steep turns or hand flown ILS approaches achieve bugger-all once the basic motor skills are mastered. If we want to develop survival skills, a solid hour in the simulator with all the electrics failed or degraded hydraulics beats 10 hours in a twin droning around on NDB work, knowing that nothing can really be allowed to go wrong because it can't be set up realistically or safely. Even so-called engine failures in a light twin are a non-event because we don't do them right at V1 (because it doesn't exist), at limiting weights, or at night, or in fog etc.
But as well as the basics, MPL will develop the whole team approach from early on. For where most of these guys will be headed - ie straight to the RHS of an advanced transport type - there is simply no point in flogging around in a light twin when for the same cost at least 10 times the amount of exposure via good simulators can be bought. And of course all this is cost-driven, so it's a case of doing the best we can for the dollars available.
As it stands, the Aussie training scene is falling behind the times with many schools running 40 year old analogue aircraft (what a disgrace) and will get further behind if it does not get off its collective bum and embrace MPL with modern glass cockpits and simulators.
Basic hand flying ability SHOULD still be part of the MPL syllabus, and I would hope that it will be tested at every stage of training via system failures etc. Realistic system failures can reinforce the need to maintain basic skills and will have something they can relate to. Endless steep turns or hand flown ILS approaches achieve bugger-all once the basic motor skills are mastered. If we want to develop survival skills, a solid hour in the simulator with all the electrics failed or degraded hydraulics beats 10 hours in a twin droning around on NDB work, knowing that nothing can really be allowed to go wrong because it can't be set up realistically or safely. Even so-called engine failures in a light twin are a non-event because we don't do them right at V1 (because it doesn't exist), at limiting weights, or at night, or in fog etc.
But as well as the basics, MPL will develop the whole team approach from early on. For where most of these guys will be headed - ie straight to the RHS of an advanced transport type - there is simply no point in flogging around in a light twin when for the same cost at least 10 times the amount of exposure via good simulators can be bought. And of course all this is cost-driven, so it's a case of doing the best we can for the dollars available.
As it stands, the Aussie training scene is falling behind the times with many schools running 40 year old analogue aircraft (what a disgrace) and will get further behind if it does not get off its collective bum and embrace MPL with modern glass cockpits and simulators.
