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QF Long Haul Cabin Crew Surplus???

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QF Long Haul Cabin Crew Surplus???

Old 20th Aug 2009, 04:55
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Uninformed

It seems someone finally got around to informing the London base.

They have changed the status on the recruitment website overnight to 'Accepting interest'.

However, the QCCUK homepage (Qantas Cabin Crew UK Home Page)still says:

Flight Attendant applications are now being accepted

Oh dear!

Remember everyone:

Excellence is in the details
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Old 20th Aug 2009, 06:05
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Conspiracy theory...

H Girl,

i've turned them down as i believe it sets too much of a precedent for working too many hours!
Sorry if I'm being slow here but maybe that's the point - that they are actually overstaffed and looking to cut, but first are building a case to counter minimum base rest arguments - "well, we know that people will take less than x hours/days rest because when we paid them, they did it, so now we're just going to demand it and we know you can get by on less base days off".
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Old 20th Aug 2009, 06:21
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Given that crew have been infringing MBT since 1988 when the current workrules were put in place the company is sure taking its time relying on those stats to promote a reduction in min rest.

What they point to is what crew with all their major competitors get in terms of MBT etc. And even QCCA are still streets ahead of the competitors including Jet*. Of course BA is still the major exception but given they have just announced 2000 crew redundancies i would think that their time for change is on the way.

When you are govt owned its like being in the public service and the conditions of Govt owned airlines are generally more favourable to employees than Private Ent companies.

When they privatise they tend to change...BA being the major exception but as i said i think their time is about to come. I genuinely hope they can hold on to their conditions like the QAL crew have but i think with the financial mess that BA is in i think thats going to be a challenge
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Old 21st Aug 2009, 02:42
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Just thought of an idea and wanted to run it past those here....

The tech crew with mainline have an agreement with the company for extending a slip.I don't know if this is just with HNL or with a number of slips.

I don't know what the actual agreement with the company is but it's basically that the crew member can elect to extend their slip from the standard length to 1 week or so.....

The catch is that the crew member has to pay for their food and allowances.

What if this was extended to cabin crew?

The crew member has a slip of a week or maybe two and pays their own accommodation and food.That means substantial savings for the company as well as effectively using more crew for the same hours without additional cost...or it's like the crew member taking LWOP but not at home...which is what the company wants isn't it.

It's just that this way the crew member is taking the leave where he/she wants to take it...

The company wins and the crew wins...everyone would be happy...

Now I wait for the inevitable flak.....
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Old 21st Aug 2009, 03:03
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hi lobey, think they tried this a few years ago with crew on FRA slips. didn't get much interest as you had to be available at short notice to get back to FRA if someone went sick. try this for a scenario, you book and pay for a weeks accomodation in southern france, buy confirmed ticket back to FRA at the end of the week. crewing calls you morning of day 3, you have to crew back that night to SIN. you lose confirmed ticket back, 4 nights accommodation and no compensation. now if they couldn't have dragged you back kicking and screaming before the week was up maybe it would have seen a much higher take up.
not having a go at you, tell telling you how it WAS.
p.s. a mate did take it and didn't receive a call from schedulers. maybe a slight error in his contact number helped.... Hmmm
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Old 21st Aug 2009, 03:18
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G'Day indamiddle.....If that's the case then you would give the idea a wide berth...

But if you were not expected to be available then would it be worth looking at...

Knowing the office as we all do then I could imagine them wanting you to be on virtual standby....but if they agree that you are not on call it could be a way of getting out of this current mess without VR or CR.

I know I would rather take LWOP or LSL at some destination of my choice than at home...
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Old 21st Aug 2009, 05:06
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Peggy 47 or should i say

the resident union rep.
i have stayed away because it is the same rant all the timebut i have to comment on the very silly statement the local union rep(pegasus 747)
makes above. Peggy 47 states...
"What they point to is what crew with all their major competitors get in terms of MBT etc. And even QCCA are still streets ahead of the competitors including Jet*. Of course BA is still the major exception but given they have just announced 2000 crew redundancies i would think that their time for change is on the way."
I think you need to either pay someone or actually talk to some of your union collegues in Europa/US/Asia to get the real picture.
1)[B] Most nation in the developed/emerging markets(Europa/US/Asia/SA) have flight duty limitations on an yearly/monthly/daily hours limit for cabin crew (or base their carriers rostering along those lines).
2) Irrespective of industrial agreements, flight duty limitations provide a balanced environment (LHR base tried to bypass these but were firmly put in place by CAA)
3)e.g You could not do a LAX-JFK-LAX shuttle under US FAA regs. of course our fearless leaders of the FAAA always ignored Flight duty limitations because MM/SR still think their industrial agreement are far superior.
4)NZ is the only other country in the region which has no FTL.
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Old 23rd Aug 2009, 12:55
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correct... and all the lobbying and the hundreds of thousands of dollards spent by the FAAA over many years lobbying CASA and politicians has never delivered FDL for Australian Based Cabin Crew.

Put quite simply neither the ALP or the LIBS are remotely interested in doing anything that will add cost to the operators of airlines.

Put simply yet again... the travelling public dont give a rats Ass about flight attendants working conditions they are only interested in cheap airfares.

The government is allowing almost total deregulation and Qantas Group compete with that. The unions job is to protect jobs. whilst at the same time trying to improve conditions.

In a time when neither the govt, regulator, airlines or travelling public have an appetite for FDL then its very challenging. Perhaps if there is a major accident or incident that can be attributed to fatigue from F/A's then that appetite might change . Until then lobbying, use of media etc is all we can do
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Old 23rd Aug 2009, 23:42
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I find it both curious and frustrating that when a number of other countries have hours limitations for Cabin Crew our country/politicians and airlines are not interested yet.....

When those countries have a lower Cabin Crew/pax ratio (1:50) than we do (1:36) the country/politicians and airlines suddenly become very interested...

Hopefully,it will not take an accident to wake some people up....

I would have thought that the pilots unions would also be supportive of fatigue issues/hours limitations with Cabin Crew in Australia.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 01:26
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My understanding is that the unions have been doing just that - although the reality is that the regulator has overtly and deliberately put FRMS etc on the back burner.

Govts both Howard & Rudd are disinterested unless there is a personal risk to their bodies or their reputations and image. Even with bilaterals, aviation is critical for Australia but nobody in Canberra has the ability to listen to those that know.

It is an absolute sham and like the whole management of the aviation portfolio the task has been delegated to non operational, 9 to 5 (oops I mean 8:40 to 4:35) flexiday bureaucrats who seem to grasp more foreskin than foresight.

All that said very few pilots & CC would bother to write to the Minister. Also very few would bother to write to the CEO of CASA and challenge the non decisions and non action.

Don't think for a minute that the flying and non flying public care - and even if there's one that goes into the terrain, a few weeks after the funerals it'll be back to AFL, NRL or Britney Spears on the front page.

If we're serious- every person in Australian aviation needs to put pen to paper TODAY -and ask the Minister a few hard questions....otherwise the next thread will be about seniority in centrelink queue.

AT
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 05:00
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Originally Posted by Pegasus747 View Post
Perhaps if there is a major accident or incident that can be attributed to fatigue from F/A's then that appetite might change . Until then lobbying, use of media etc is all we can do
While the importance of the cabin crew safety role cannot be emphasised enough,
I think it unlikely that there has ever been a life threatening incident onboard an aircraft that can be attributed to cabin crew fatigue.
Fatigue will definitely have an impact on performance in normal situations, ie slides can be accidentally set off on the ground due to fatigue, but such incidents seem to only produce procedural changes to combat them.
Maybe someone can provide some examples of accidents or incidents in which the investigation stated that cabin crew fatigue was a reason for loss of life or injury.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 07:42
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Twiggs in A Vaccuum

CC so fatigued that they passed out in an aircraft toilet and sustained serious head trauma
CC going to asleep at their door on aircraft rotation.
Not arming doors,not disarming doors down to fatigue.
How many examples do you want Twiggs?
How can you fly and be so ignorant of these instances?
Most injuries sustained on aircraft occur when the crew member is returning home from a port like LAX or LHR.East West flying involving large time changes and little sleep leading to fatigue.
Very few injuries are sustained by crew flying north/south.
Twiggs the sciolist opens her mouth yet again
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 09:25
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I agree with you packrat.

I've heard the stories, and seen an occurrence or two.

My question would be, why have they made themselves available in the first place to fly that particular sector if they are fatigued? They have an obligation to themselves, their fellow crew members, and the passengers to not fly in the first place. That means pulling the pin in port before the duty begins if they are fatigued.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 09:31
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I think it unlikely that there has ever been a life threatening incident onboard an aircraft that can be attributed to cabin crew fatigue.
Twiggs.....This time you have outdone yourself ....and that's not easy.

That would have to be one of the most asinine and ingenuous statements I have seen.

Your purpose is so self evident as to be truly machiavellian...

Road authorities know the effect that fatigue has in accidents yet you are claiming that the same is not a factor with crew fatigue....

Why am I not surprised when Twiggs made this comment about cabin crew rest on Jetstar international...
Even Emirates have no crew rest seats on their 777's.
Jet* Asia definitely do not have them and I can't imagine Jet* international would waste valuable pax seats to put crew in when they have perfectly good jump seats to sit in.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 09:40
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For once I agree with Funbags...

If a crew member feels as though he/she is suffering from a level of fatigue such that they are likely to fall asleep or sufficiently hinder their ability to safely work then it is their responsibility to the pax and the other crew to stand down.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 10:17
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Thumbs down

Not arming doors,not disarming doors down to fatigue.
That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard! So BOTH crew omitted to crosscheck arming/disarming?

They both should be stood down.

Methinks you are a drama queen and embellishing the truth somewhat.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 10:23
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Obviously I need to be more specific.
Maybe someone can provide some examples of accidents or incidents in which the investigation stated that cabin crew fatigue was a reason for loss of life or injury to passengers.
I'm talking any airline by the way.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 10:41
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That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard! So BOTH crew omitted to crosscheck arming/disarming?
Toluene Diisocyanate...

So what's your excuse for omissions on the flight deck with 3 tech crew supposedly checking each other....

Fatigue is an issue with any crew tech or cabin.....and no it's not fiction...

Do you think doors slides are fired off on purpose???

Twiggs....Give it a rest
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 16:22
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Maybe someone can provide some examples of accidents or incidents in which the investigation stated that cabin crew fatigue was a reason for loss of life or injury to passengers.
twiggs,I'll try and treat your question seriously.For a situation as you are alluding to and there is loss of life the incident is usually a catastrophic one.
It is hard to test the fatigue levels of someone who is deceased or someone who has survived an accident and is recovering in hospital and is under medication.Even if the F/A testifies that they felt fatigued at the time of the accident it would be hard to quantify.

The pilots are a little different in that they are operating in a work environment with voice and data recorders.The performance of the aircraft can be analysed to interpret the actions of the pilots prior to an accident.
How can you do the same for f/a's?
There are no machines recording the actions of the f/a prior and during the accident.
So how can you ask for examples?
When you said
I think it unlikely
you are saying you don't believe there is any proof and that is exactly what the airline would be saying.

We all know that as human beings we are subject to tiredness the same as anyone else but to quantify it and get some legislation passed is going to be very hard.
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Old 25th Aug 2009, 02:00
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Well the silence really does confirm Pegasus747's original statement,

Originally Posted by Pegasus747
Perhaps if there is a major accident or incident that can be attributed to fatigue from F/A's then that appetite might change . Until then lobbying, use of media etc is all we can do.


We are all kidding ourselves if we think that CASA really cares if someone faints in the toilet or doesn't arm/disarm their door due to fatigue.
These situations do not put passengers at risk sufficiently to warrant regulation.
Fatigue of cabin crew is an OH&S issue and that's about all.
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