Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing
Grandpa Aerotart
That only applies if you have and can maintain visual reference to the ground. We're talking here about what do you do once having lost visual reference? That appears to be what happened here. The APNG flight could not land at Kokoda due to the weather (otherwise they would have landed), and they probably remained in the weather until the point of impact(otherwise they wouldn't have flown into the mountain)
I do have an idea what MIGHT have happened because it has happened to me - I HAVE seen EXACTLY what they saw in their last seconds but I got away with it. THAT is why I WILL NOT be drawn into any more of your inane posts and why I won't do anything other than help people to understand the challenges they faced.
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If you haven't operated in PNG it would be best to just listen and learn.
You don't need to be IMC to 'lose it' in that place, even though you're visual. It can be quite surprising to find one has no visual horizon due to terrain and need to refer to the AH/AI for pitch info rather than be fooled by illusions. It can all quickly turn to worms in a low performance aircraft.
The only time I felt safe there was departing Moresby to the south or at 30,000 ft in a Canberra taking survey photos.
You don't need to be IMC to 'lose it' in that place, even though you're visual. It can be quite surprising to find one has no visual horizon due to terrain and need to refer to the AH/AI for pitch info rather than be fooled by illusions. It can all quickly turn to worms in a low performance aircraft.
The only time I felt safe there was departing Moresby to the south or at 30,000 ft in a Canberra taking survey photos.
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And that's what people want to know, what happened.
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G'day Sharpie
Thanks for the representation during the ,79 pilots' strike, pity it didn't pan out the way everyone would've liked.
Left DA 3 weeks before DNL went in and I'm only going on an extremely reliable source but it was a while ago now.
Did do some research and did actually have a copy of the final report somewhere, will have to go deeper, for my own edification now as you've got me thinking.
Thanks for the representation during the ,79 pilots' strike, pity it didn't pan out the way everyone would've liked.
Left DA 3 weeks before DNL went in and I'm only going on an extremely reliable source but it was a while ago now.
Did do some research and did actually have a copy of the final report somewhere, will have to go deeper, for my own edification now as you've got me thinking.
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Chimbu Chuckles,
Some time back I was on a scuba trip to Walindi on West New Britain just after an incident in which an F 28 shot off the Kimbe (?) runway into the drink. Was that the one you recall or was there another at Madang?
Some time back I was on a scuba trip to Walindi on West New Britain just after an incident in which an F 28 shot off the Kimbe (?) runway into the drink. Was that the one you recall or was there another at Madang?
Eagle,
I have not flown in PNG as a pilot. I have flown as a Crewman (ADF/Civil) and as a passenger on civil and military a/c.
To say the ADF has had only one fatal accident compared to many civil accidents in PNG is to ignore the fact that there are far more civil aircraft, conducting far more difficult operations than the ADF would attempt, to remote locations in PNG every day, year round. They are professionals.
I think DE has a good point.
With luck, fair weather and common sense, the ADF crews will stay safe.
I have not flown in PNG as a pilot. I have flown as a Crewman (ADF/Civil) and as a passenger on civil and military a/c.
To say the ADF has had only one fatal accident compared to many civil accidents in PNG is to ignore the fact that there are far more civil aircraft, conducting far more difficult operations than the ADF would attempt, to remote locations in PNG every day, year round. They are professionals.
I think DE has a good point.
With luck, fair weather and common sense, the ADF crews will stay safe.
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For guliBell
TAWS shows all red when trying to get up the river into Tabubil in a DHC8.
Scared the crap out of me! I already "now" that there are f#$%ing HUGE mountains all around me!
Better to keep your eyes outside and "see & avoid".
TAWS is great for situational awareness, but it does have limitations when used
in a mixed VFR/IFR environment. Which is what flying in PNG is.
PS When you inevitably have to go IMC below LSALT a nice tight climbing turn will have to do. Just hope there's nothing in your way! It worked for some of us.....
Unfortunately it didn't work for others....
TAWS shows all red when trying to get up the river into Tabubil in a DHC8.
Scared the crap out of me! I already "now" that there are f#$%ing HUGE mountains all around me!
Better to keep your eyes outside and "see & avoid".
TAWS is great for situational awareness, but it does have limitations when used
in a mixed VFR/IFR environment. Which is what flying in PNG is.
PS When you inevitably have to go IMC below LSALT a nice tight climbing turn will have to do. Just hope there's nothing in your way! It worked for some of us.....
Unfortunately it didn't work for others....
Last edited by firegrass; 14th Aug 2009 at 02:39. Reason: Addition
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Denabol....
The F28 at Hoskins did not go into the drink , It went thru the fence at the other end due to a brake problem ( "Splash" was flying it ).
Later on the same day a Talair Bandit descended into the water whilst also making an approach to Hoskins.
The F28 at Hoskins did not go into the drink , It went thru the fence at the other end due to a brake problem ( "Splash" was flying it ).
Later on the same day a Talair Bandit descended into the water whilst also making an approach to Hoskins.
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Thanks Hanoi.
Couldn't even remember the name of the strip right, but do remember having the best scuba diving of a lifetime . I flew around some other parts of PNG too in light aircraft up to the size of a Bandierante, which didn't strike me as all that light but solid as a brick dunny. I reckon it is one of the most exciting places on earth, to fly or travel, and I hope this accident doesn't discourage our youngsters from exploring it. Safer being in the air I think than being in Port Moresby after dark.
Couldn't even remember the name of the strip right, but do remember having the best scuba diving of a lifetime . I flew around some other parts of PNG too in light aircraft up to the size of a Bandierante, which didn't strike me as all that light but solid as a brick dunny. I reckon it is one of the most exciting places on earth, to fly or travel, and I hope this accident doesn't discourage our youngsters from exploring it. Safer being in the air I think than being in Port Moresby after dark.
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Hanoi, you are correct with the PX incident in Hoskins, the F28 sufferred damage to the nosewheel area from the low perimeter fencing on the overrun on RW 12 and was flown out a week or so later after repairs. The Talair bandit went into the sea between Bialla and Hoskins and I believe nothing has never been found to this day. This was a particular bad day because I think one of the Defence Force aircraft involved in the bandit search also had an incident with a heavy landing at Hoskins.
From memory, Pixie has only ever had the hull loss in Madang, and to date have never had a fatality in 34 years of operations, although as in every company there have been some close ones. The F28 operation was by the far some of the best flying in the world... ever!!
Regarding RAAF aircraft written off on PNG training missions, there have been a few helicopter crashes over the years involved mainly in high altitude training, and Caribous have been left behind in Tufi, Eliptamin and the Kudgeru gap. I don't doubt that the training is high, but the lack of continuous experience in country was a significant factor in most of the incidents. I think DE has raised a valid point of concern.
From memory, Pixie has only ever had the hull loss in Madang, and to date have never had a fatality in 34 years of operations, although as in every company there have been some close ones. The F28 operation was by the far some of the best flying in the world... ever!!
Regarding RAAF aircraft written off on PNG training missions, there have been a few helicopter crashes over the years involved mainly in high altitude training, and Caribous have been left behind in Tufi, Eliptamin and the Kudgeru gap. I don't doubt that the training is high, but the lack of continuous experience in country was a significant factor in most of the incidents. I think DE has raised a valid point of concern.
Originally Posted by Trojan1981
To say the ADF has had only one fatal accident compared to many civil accidents in PNG is to ignore the fact that there are far more civil aircraft, conducting far more difficult operations than the ADF would attempt
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From the Herald:
'The airline hired former Air NZ/Ansett CEO Gary Toomey in June to drive its expansion plans.'
I wouldn't hire Toomey to drive my car.
One unlucky airline, I thought 'Absolutely' Toomey had been put out to pasture.
'The airline hired former Air NZ/Ansett CEO Gary Toomey in June to drive its expansion plans.'
I wouldn't hire Toomey to drive my car.
One unlucky airline, I thought 'Absolutely' Toomey had been put out to pasture.
Last edited by skol; 14th Aug 2009 at 04:51.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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go IMC below LSALT a nice tight climbing turn will have to do. Just hope there's nothing in your way! It worked for some of us.....
Got back to Moresby, climbed into my car and then, for about ten seconds had a severe dose of the shakes!
I have never been so scared, before or since!
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Most of the Caribou prangs were due to mistakes that one would more than likely have been able to recover from in Australia e.g pressing too far up a closed valley, pressing approaches that should have been abandoned much earlier, lack of appreciation of a poor (low) approach, mis-identifying airfield. They serve to reinforce the unforgiving nature of flying in PNG....and Irian Jaya.
There was also a write off at Tapini and another damaged at Efogi - but that one may have been airframe age deterioration.
I think the only fatal Caribou accident was the Kudgeru but, that was a particularly bad one with an aircraft full of PNG Army cadets. I think 3 or 4 kids miraculously walked out of it.
There was also a write off at Tapini and another damaged at Efogi - but that one may have been airframe age deterioration.
I think the only fatal Caribou accident was the Kudgeru but, that was a particularly bad one with an aircraft full of PNG Army cadets. I think 3 or 4 kids miraculously walked out of it.
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A4-202 crashed at Porgera on 11th June 1965
A4-147 crashed while landing at Tapini on 6th October 1968
A4-233 crashed in the Kudgeru Gap on 28th August 1972
A4-164 crashed on takeoff at Eliptamin on 18th October 1978
A4-285 damaged while landing at Efogi on the 5th September 2008 (recovered and scrapped)
Details courtesy of Darren Crick, ADF Serials - RAAF A4 De Havilland DHC-4 Caribou
A4-147 crashed while landing at Tapini on 6th October 1968
A4-233 crashed in the Kudgeru Gap on 28th August 1972
A4-164 crashed on takeoff at Eliptamin on 18th October 1978
A4-285 damaged while landing at Efogi on the 5th September 2008 (recovered and scrapped)
Details courtesy of Darren Crick, ADF Serials - RAAF A4 De Havilland DHC-4 Caribou