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Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing

Old 23rd Aug 2009, 12:44
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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from the cairns post

site of the crash - a pencil mark in the yellow highlit area ....

Plane crash in PNG - Cairns Photo Galleries | cairns.com.au
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Old 23rd Aug 2009, 16:51
  #242 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
 
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TG I have been pondering your post - I can understand your anguish - two guys I trained initially subsequently were killed but a year + after I last flew with them - I was able to rationalize it and it has never really bothered me - it was sad but so were the other 35 guys I knew that died.

I honestly feel your experience falls into the 'you can't put an old head on young shoulders' category - There is just no way you can sit in the RHS long enough to guarantee anything. I am certain that your criteria for setting someone loose was the same as mine which was the same as ALL my peers who trained in PNG - would I be happy with my family sat behind him?

Yes? Then off you go. No? Then you're on a plane south - I only made that recommendation twice in all my time training in PNG GA - on both occasions I was ignored and by some minor miracle neither died - one was subsequently sacked ( cause he was a hamfisted moron) and went south, the other got what he wanted from PNG and ended up in VB.

Its like when I taught my daughter to drive - I started when she was 15 (we were living in an Asian country where you could do that) and gave her 18 months worth of ICUS - day/night/rain/shine/peak hour or no - and then I set her loose. She's a good driver and has never had a bingle - she's now 20 and living in Oz - but it was still a deep breath and 'ok, your on your own' moment. To her credit she tolerated the experience and never once questioned me about my training regime.

But you can't spend 18 months doing ICUS in a Twotter.

I don't think you should torture yourself another minute over it - but I know that nothing I say will stop you wondering - the mere fact that it has played on your mind for 40 years suggests to me you were a good and decent trainer

Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 23rd Aug 2009 at 17:05.
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Old 23rd Aug 2009, 22:38
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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Chuck, the thing these days that helps the new ones (though they don't always appreciate it, they want to progress faster), in say a Twotter, is the two pilot crew, F/O apprenticeship. In the single pilot days, if you had a problem with something going unserviceable, and weather, and schedule, and all, you were it and you learnt to handle it for the first time on the job as you went, after you were turned loose. Had a dual generator failure in a Twotter once, and it was no drama having the F/O fly the aircraft around the buildups staying visual on the hour back while I, with his checking, (and my checking of how he was going) tried to sort out the rest. First time it had happened to me, but for him the next time wont be his first time. It takes a little time to get exposure, and to allow things to happen to you. 12 or 18 months in the right seat before a command, of even a simple aircraft like a Twotter, being in on the problem solving that happens day to day is a safer way than being thrown in the deep end after a checkout (no matter how thorough.) New captains with experienced F/O's, and experienced captains with new F/O's, is still SO sensible.. New Islander or Baron captains should have done some time in multi crew before being given their single pilot slot, but it didn't always happen that way.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 01:44
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Just for information regarding the dual generator failure. We had been in some heavy rain, and water got in under an unsealed plate on the roof and shorted out some pins in a canon plug.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 01:52
  #245 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
 
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What you say makes sense - but I still LOVED flying the Twotter and Bandit single pilot - at least twice as much fun
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 02:02
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Sure, and I used to prefer it that way too..
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 10:28
  #247 (permalink)  
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Im old fashioned, my two bob.
No requirement of course, but 2500 hours would be pretty skinny for a Twotter command in PNG, if no previous combat aviation in a piston twin first.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 14:32
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Im old fashioned, my two bob.
No requirement of course, but 2500 hours would be pretty skinny for a Twotter command in PNG, if no previous combat aviation in a piston twin first.
Tinpis... I can see your point BUT the opportunities to fly single pilot twin pistons in PNG are getting less and less by the year... there is only one commercial operator at the moment who has bongos or similiar (North Coast Aviation); Airlink was another one (bongos and 404s) but they went under two years ago... so I guess the 2nd best option is RHS to LHS in an Otter...
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 22:04
  #249 (permalink)  
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Sorry, but in an ideal world it may have been a benefit
Having said that I'm reminded of poor Jim's CFIT with about 20 years in country ?
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 22:15
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Although I think RHS time is very valuable training when a young pilot first gets to PNG (great to learn the ropes from an old hand who has been there done that) I cant help but feel that you dont fully complete the learning process until you are PIC and have to make the big WX calls all by yourself with no one sitting next to you giving you a nudge one way or another. In an ideal world I think a stint in the RHS seat time in a Twin Otter followed by a good period of single pilot piston ops and then back to the Twin Otter for a command makes perfect sense. But it is not a perfect world and as mentioned above there are fewer and fewer piston aircraft in PNG now. When I first got to PNG the larger operators of piston aircraft included Islands, Airlink, South West, MBA and NCA and there were also a number of smaller charter outfits. Most of the operators listed above substituted the initial 'perfect world' RHS time in a Twin Otter for a shorter period of ICUS in a smaller piston and their pilots were then let loose to complete their apprenticeships, but then most pilots at that time (post Talair) came to PNG with a few more hours behind them. Now there is a step missing in that process.
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Old 25th Aug 2009, 03:11
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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I am always a little perplexed by the view that pilots would be better off by flying Command on light pistons first. If I was asked which was safer, flying an Islander (or even worse C-206) single pilot in PNG, or an Otter (two crew, turbine powered etc) I would go with the Otter.
I would say the Otter would be safer as well. And yet, as far as I know, NCA have had only one fatal crash with their fleet of bugsmashers. Look at the last half dozen aircraft on that list of PNG prangs. A fair representation of two-pilot, two-engine turbines there. Arguably, two engines are not always better than one, and likewise, two pilots may not always be better than one. (I think two pilots and two engines are better, most of the time, but there are issues with two-crew ops that don't exist with single pilot ops).

But I digress. The point is, the person in the right hand seat may have thousands of hours of experience, but not a single hour of command experience since they did their CPL training. And FO experience is nothing like command experience. I think FO time beyond about 500 hours is worth very little, while all command time (especially in PNG) is invaluable. Some may disagree with me. Fine.
I can't prove my opinion, but I stand by it.
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Old 25th Aug 2009, 08:08
  #252 (permalink)  

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I think you tend to be a lot more careful/conservative in a piston single or twin and that transfers well to the Twotter style operations. Even better when we had -200 Twotters which had only marginally better performance than an Islander. You only started feeling less vulnerable in a -300 Twotter.

Two engines vs single engine is not the issue - VERY few PNG accidents are engine failure related.

I was never a supporter of 2 pilot ops in Twotters in PNG because,

1/. The likelihood of proper 2 crew SOPs being implemented was always going to be problematic when none of the trainers had an airline background,

2/. When shits are trumps in PNG you don't have time to discuss it

3/. A new FO taught to 'speak up' when 'uncomfortable' would go hoarse in PNG

4/. After several months of their 'concerns' being essentially ignored they would tend to just sit there and accept whatever happened next.

The accident record since the implementation of 2 crew ops seems to indicate no safety benefit has been realised.

Its all moot anyway - if SP command experience was to become a non negotiable Twotter command requirement you'd park most of the Twotters in PNG.
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Old 26th Aug 2009, 20:59
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Are the Australian accident investigation authorities helping PNG authorities with the investigation into this accident?
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Old 26th Aug 2009, 21:47
  #254 (permalink)  
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Yes AE-2009-050
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Old 27th Aug 2009, 17:23
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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Putting aside the tragedy which occured and began this thread, I have found it to be one of the most interesting things that I have read on PRuNE. My hats off to all who have flown in PNG, and who have posted their comments. I would like to see a separate topic devoted to stories and experiences with the flying in this area. It would no doubt provide valuable info for those still flying, or for those who are about to.

Last edited by wes_wall; 27th Aug 2009 at 18:45.
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Old 28th Aug 2009, 00:35
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...g-tok-tok.html

try that wes
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Old 28th Aug 2009, 01:37
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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Chimbu Chuck

I must agree and with the addition of the secound crew member the gradient was usually that steep it created even more work for the captain. It actually decreased safety and most of the CFIT accidents leading up to this point probably would have included two crew rather than one. It wasn't much fun trying to find Garoka or Hagen on a sh!tty morning, seperating yourself from other traffic and then trying to keep the dude in the right seat calm.
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Old 28th Aug 2009, 01:42
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Slight thread drift I know, but have services into Kokoda recommenced yet? The news gave the impession that they had all been stopped during the recovery process.
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Old 28th Aug 2009, 22:23
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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In my era (sigh) 1968 to 1974, it was only one pilot twotter, two pilots DC3, most of us thought nothing of it, though PNG was a wild and woolly place then and it is not just the terain I am talking about. It was not uncommon for pilots to wear sidearms, and I ALWAYS stood on the wing so I could not get "jumped" when loading or unloading, because they would love to nick that gun. It was a interesting era and brought some adventures for us then young blokes. The runways were often in places that your average line pilot today would totally freak out at, and many were littered with unsuccessful attempts to take off or land, especially warbirds from both sides, a constant reminder that if you stuffed up........ I was then young, dumb and happy, and enjoyed it very much, but scared the sh$t out of myself on more than one occasion, (as we all did) but amazingly enough only lost a couple of pilots and one aircraft in the time I was there. (One of which I referred to earlier). Those in BNE who would like to meet some of the pilots who flew in those times, there is a reunion at New Farm in Oct, (I don't have the details as am packing, the wife has decreed we are moving) but Chimbu probably does, and will post accordingly, if not, I will when can get my head around this mess. The stories that came out of PNG should be recorded, as this was flying that will never happen again, and I am thinking of contacting Peter Fitzsimmons or pehaps Capt Geoff Litchfield who was always good at wielding a pen, to get it down on paper, before we all start going to that aircrew bar in the sky. (hopefully).
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Old 29th Aug 2009, 04:29
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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Hi TG,

The 2009 TAA/Ansett PNG Reunion is being held on the 17th October. Eligibility is ALL TAA/Ansett PNG based staff from 1960 - 1973 and their spouses/partners or friend. Cost is $65 per head. I can supply a contact email for registration.

Hope to see you there!

Cheers Exaviator
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