Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing
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As morbid as it seems, I appreciate the turn this thread has taken. At least we are no longer placing blame and comparing stories of how we would have done it better.
When it comes down to it, none of us was involved in the decision-making process or even sitting at the pointy end of that flight so therefore, really none of us has any right to speculate.
As a mark of respect, those who are offering an opinion from having been-there-done-that may help us understand the why's and what's of flying in PNG and we should take it on board. Other than that, if you are not offering a constructive point-of-view and just posting for the sake of trying to sound important think about how you would like it if it was you being discussed post-mortem.
When it comes down to it, none of us was involved in the decision-making process or even sitting at the pointy end of that flight so therefore, really none of us has any right to speculate.
As a mark of respect, those who are offering an opinion from having been-there-done-that may help us understand the why's and what's of flying in PNG and we should take it on board. Other than that, if you are not offering a constructive point-of-view and just posting for the sake of trying to sound important think about how you would like it if it was you being discussed post-mortem.
Bill thought he might die here - Papua New Guinea Aviation
P2-SBG. Now with Qantas Founders, Longreach, back as VH-EAP, as she was with QF, 1947-1961.
P2-SBG. Now with Qantas Founders, Longreach, back as VH-EAP, as she was with QF, 1947-1961.
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sundaun, many thanks for your PM re the Piaggio. The story doing the rounds at the time among the group, where he worked prior to PNG, was that he had an engine fire which burnt through the bearers, allowing the engine to drop out. Reportedly radioed such information before disappearing. CFIT sounds much more probable, given the lack of substantive detail.
Retired Tiger pilot
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Pig.
I arrived at Patair a few yeasrs after the disappearance and never heard any mention of an engine fire.
I'll chase up with some of the crew around at the time to see what comments we may get.
One's I heard over the early years were: Oxy failure, continued on until out of fuel over the Papuan Gulf: flew into trees in wx.
As the Pig was carrying a load of peanuts, searchers for days looked for gathering of white parrots.
I liked flying the Pig though the engines needed to be handled with care and did not like overboosting. Patair experienced 1 failure in all their years of operating the aircraft but other operators of Pigs and Queenairs had quite a few.
I'll chase up with some of the crew around at the time to see what comments we may get.
One's I heard over the early years were: Oxy failure, continued on until out of fuel over the Papuan Gulf: flew into trees in wx.
As the Pig was carrying a load of peanuts, searchers for days looked for gathering of white parrots.
I liked flying the Pig though the engines needed to be handled with care and did not like overboosting. Patair experienced 1 failure in all their years of operating the aircraft but other operators of Pigs and Queenairs had quite a few.
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from the cairns post
site of the crash - a pencil mark in the yellow highlit area ....
Plane crash in PNG - Cairns Photo Galleries | cairns.com.au
Plane crash in PNG - Cairns Photo Galleries | cairns.com.au
Grandpa Aerotart
TG I have been pondering your post - I can understand your anguish - two guys I trained initially subsequently were killed but a year + after I last flew with them - I was able to rationalize it and it has never really bothered me - it was sad but so were the other 35 guys I knew that died.
I honestly feel your experience falls into the 'you can't put an old head on young shoulders' category - There is just no way you can sit in the RHS long enough to guarantee anything. I am certain that your criteria for setting someone loose was the same as mine which was the same as ALL my peers who trained in PNG - would I be happy with my family sat behind him?
Yes? Then off you go. No? Then you're on a plane south - I only made that recommendation twice in all my time training in PNG GA - on both occasions I was ignored and by some minor miracle neither died - one was subsequently sacked ( cause he was a hamfisted moron) and went south, the other got what he wanted from PNG and ended up in VB.
Its like when I taught my daughter to drive - I started when she was 15 (we were living in an Asian country where you could do that) and gave her 18 months worth of ICUS - day/night/rain/shine/peak hour or no - and then I set her loose. She's a good driver and has never had a bingle - she's now 20 and living in Oz - but it was still a deep breath and 'ok, your on your own' moment. To her credit she tolerated the experience and never once questioned me about my training regime.
But you can't spend 18 months doing ICUS in a Twotter.
I don't think you should torture yourself another minute over it - but I know that nothing I say will stop you wondering - the mere fact that it has played on your mind for 40 years suggests to me you were a good and decent trainer
I honestly feel your experience falls into the 'you can't put an old head on young shoulders' category - There is just no way you can sit in the RHS long enough to guarantee anything. I am certain that your criteria for setting someone loose was the same as mine which was the same as ALL my peers who trained in PNG - would I be happy with my family sat behind him?
Yes? Then off you go. No? Then you're on a plane south - I only made that recommendation twice in all my time training in PNG GA - on both occasions I was ignored and by some minor miracle neither died - one was subsequently sacked ( cause he was a hamfisted moron) and went south, the other got what he wanted from PNG and ended up in VB.
Its like when I taught my daughter to drive - I started when she was 15 (we were living in an Asian country where you could do that) and gave her 18 months worth of ICUS - day/night/rain/shine/peak hour or no - and then I set her loose. She's a good driver and has never had a bingle - she's now 20 and living in Oz - but it was still a deep breath and 'ok, your on your own' moment. To her credit she tolerated the experience and never once questioned me about my training regime.
But you can't spend 18 months doing ICUS in a Twotter.
I don't think you should torture yourself another minute over it - but I know that nothing I say will stop you wondering - the mere fact that it has played on your mind for 40 years suggests to me you were a good and decent trainer
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 23rd Aug 2009 at 17:05.
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Chuck, the thing these days that helps the new ones (though they don't always appreciate it, they want to progress faster), in say a Twotter, is the two pilot crew, F/O apprenticeship. In the single pilot days, if you had a problem with something going unserviceable, and weather, and schedule, and all, you were it and you learnt to handle it for the first time on the job as you went, after you were turned loose. Had a dual generator failure in a Twotter once, and it was no drama having the F/O fly the aircraft around the buildups staying visual on the hour back while I, with his checking, (and my checking of how he was going) tried to sort out the rest. First time it had happened to me, but for him the next time wont be his first time. It takes a little time to get exposure, and to allow things to happen to you. 12 or 18 months in the right seat before a command, of even a simple aircraft like a Twotter, being in on the problem solving that happens day to day is a safer way than being thrown in the deep end after a checkout (no matter how thorough.) New captains with experienced F/O's, and experienced captains with new F/O's, is still SO sensible.. New Islander or Baron captains should have done some time in multi crew before being given their single pilot slot, but it didn't always happen that way.
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Just for information regarding the dual generator failure. We had been in some heavy rain, and water got in under an unsealed plate on the roof and shorted out some pins in a canon plug.
Silly Old Git
Im old fashioned, my two bob.
No requirement of course, but 2500 hours would be pretty skinny for a Twotter command in PNG, if no previous combat aviation in a piston twin first.
No requirement of course, but 2500 hours would be pretty skinny for a Twotter command in PNG, if no previous combat aviation in a piston twin first.
Im old fashioned, my two bob.
No requirement of course, but 2500 hours would be pretty skinny for a Twotter command in PNG, if no previous combat aviation in a piston twin first.
No requirement of course, but 2500 hours would be pretty skinny for a Twotter command in PNG, if no previous combat aviation in a piston twin first.
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Although I think RHS time is very valuable training when a young pilot first gets to PNG (great to learn the ropes from an old hand who has been there done that) I cant help but feel that you dont fully complete the learning process until you are PIC and have to make the big WX calls all by yourself with no one sitting next to you giving you a nudge one way or another. In an ideal world I think a stint in the RHS seat time in a Twin Otter followed by a good period of single pilot piston ops and then back to the Twin Otter for a command makes perfect sense. But it is not a perfect world and as mentioned above there are fewer and fewer piston aircraft in PNG now. When I first got to PNG the larger operators of piston aircraft included Islands, Airlink, South West, MBA and NCA and there were also a number of smaller charter outfits. Most of the operators listed above substituted the initial 'perfect world' RHS time in a Twin Otter for a shorter period of ICUS in a smaller piston and their pilots were then let loose to complete their apprenticeships, but then most pilots at that time (post Talair) came to PNG with a few more hours behind them. Now there is a step missing in that process.
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I am always a little perplexed by the view that pilots would be better off by flying Command on light pistons first. If I was asked which was safer, flying an Islander (or even worse C-206) single pilot in PNG, or an Otter (two crew, turbine powered etc) I would go with the Otter.
But I digress. The point is, the person in the right hand seat may have thousands of hours of experience, but not a single hour of command experience since they did their CPL training. And FO experience is nothing like command experience. I think FO time beyond about 500 hours is worth very little, while all command time (especially in PNG) is invaluable. Some may disagree with me. Fine.
I can't prove my opinion, but I stand by it.
Grandpa Aerotart
I think you tend to be a lot more careful/conservative in a piston single or twin and that transfers well to the Twotter style operations. Even better when we had -200 Twotters which had only marginally better performance than an Islander. You only started feeling less vulnerable in a -300 Twotter.
Two engines vs single engine is not the issue - VERY few PNG accidents are engine failure related.
I was never a supporter of 2 pilot ops in Twotters in PNG because,
1/. The likelihood of proper 2 crew SOPs being implemented was always going to be problematic when none of the trainers had an airline background,
2/. When ****s are trumps in PNG you don't have time to discuss it
3/. A new FO taught to 'speak up' when 'uncomfortable' would go hoarse in PNG
4/. After several months of their 'concerns' being essentially ignored they would tend to just sit there and accept whatever happened next.
The accident record since the implementation of 2 crew ops seems to indicate no safety benefit has been realised.
Its all moot anyway - if SP command experience was to become a non negotiable Twotter command requirement you'd park most of the Twotters in PNG.
Two engines vs single engine is not the issue - VERY few PNG accidents are engine failure related.
I was never a supporter of 2 pilot ops in Twotters in PNG because,
1/. The likelihood of proper 2 crew SOPs being implemented was always going to be problematic when none of the trainers had an airline background,
2/. When ****s are trumps in PNG you don't have time to discuss it
3/. A new FO taught to 'speak up' when 'uncomfortable' would go hoarse in PNG
4/. After several months of their 'concerns' being essentially ignored they would tend to just sit there and accept whatever happened next.
The accident record since the implementation of 2 crew ops seems to indicate no safety benefit has been realised.
Its all moot anyway - if SP command experience was to become a non negotiable Twotter command requirement you'd park most of the Twotters in PNG.
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Putting aside the tragedy which occured and began this thread, I have found it to be one of the most interesting things that I have read on PRuNE. My hats off to all who have flown in PNG, and who have posted their comments. I would like to see a separate topic devoted to stories and experiences with the flying in this area. It would no doubt provide valuable info for those still flying, or for those who are about to.
Last edited by wes_wall; 27th Aug 2009 at 18:45.
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