Qantas Redundancies
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas Redundancies
As a very junior Qantas pilot, I am particularly apprehensive at present that Qantas will start sacking pilots. Whilst I strongly appreciate the efforts of AIPA to avoid this, I get the distinct impression that a number of redundancies are likely. I suppose the major concern to those facing the "chop" is that there are very limited opportunities else where in the industry and the short term outlook still continues to be gloomy.
Does anyone on this forum have any "inside" information wrt this issue?
Are Qantas obliged to pay redundancy payouts to those with less than 5 years service ? If so, what rate ?
Is AIPA looking at alternate Qantas group employment for it junior members (Q Link, Jetstar, Jetstar Asia) ?
If redundancies do occur, how will LOA 161 be applied? That is, is seniority in this instance from date of appointment ?
Does anyone on this forum have any "inside" information wrt this issue?
Are Qantas obliged to pay redundancy payouts to those with less than 5 years service ? If so, what rate ?
Is AIPA looking at alternate Qantas group employment for it junior members (Q Link, Jetstar, Jetstar Asia) ?
If redundancies do occur, how will LOA 161 be applied? That is, is seniority in this instance from date of appointment ?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugh, if you want real guidance on the issue, PPRUNE is not the place to ask these questions. After a few 'on-topic' posts this thread will no doubt drift into the dribble of most others as members shed the weight off their shoulders.
Call AIPA, ask questions and convey concerns - that's what they're there for, that's why they get paid. They know the EBA better than anyone else.
Call AIPA, ask questions and convey concerns - that's what they're there for, that's why they get paid. They know the EBA better than anyone else.
Nunc est bibendum
I'll back home pylet's assessment. Any information gleaned from PPRUNE is by nature 2nd hand and thus questionable as to it's veracity. Talking directly to AIPA will get you someone who knows the award and is able to provide some assistance.
The big thing to keep in mind too is that the award requires six months notice before termination. You're safe at this stage until at least after Christmas. Small consolation I know but better than nothing.
The big thing to keep in mind too is that the award requires six months notice before termination. You're safe at this stage until at least after Christmas. Small consolation I know but better than nothing.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugh,
Many including myself empathise with your concern that Qantas may soon take action to reduce the number of pilots it has on its books.
While I have no "inside" information on whether or not, Qantas, will or won’t, reduce the number of pilots it currently employs, - I can unequivocally say that the plausible option is, as you suggest:
· Alternate Qantas group employment for junior AIPA members.
Makes absolutely no economic sense for Qantas to be sacking new hires and/or paying voluntary redundancy to people like me when Jetstar is slated to continue growing. [Can assure you that many of QAN’s institutional shareholders are not imamate of ‘Robbing Peter to pay Paul, especially while the Company needs to bolster its free cash flow in order to retain its Credit Rating.]
Delaying the B787 until 2014 will no doubt mean changes to yesterday’s business plan and the obvious solution to the Qantas group’s piloting needs is the Group Opportunity Allocation list (GOAL). Its introduction would:
· Help standardise operational standards throughout the Qantas Group,
· Enhance job security for all Qantas Group pilots,
· Optimise career progression for all Group Pilots in accordance with prevailing commercial reality, and
· Put in place a building block necessary for Qantas’ Globalisation.
As we all know, nothing is certain in life, especially in aviation. Nevertheless, believe changed circumstances will bring the GOAL to fruition in the not too distant future.
IMHO, is no need to sell the new car just yet?
Trust the above helps you rest easier.
Kind Regards
Ian Woods
www.aviationeconomics.com.au
Many including myself empathise with your concern that Qantas may soon take action to reduce the number of pilots it has on its books.
While I have no "inside" information on whether or not, Qantas, will or won’t, reduce the number of pilots it currently employs, - I can unequivocally say that the plausible option is, as you suggest:
· Alternate Qantas group employment for junior AIPA members.
Makes absolutely no economic sense for Qantas to be sacking new hires and/or paying voluntary redundancy to people like me when Jetstar is slated to continue growing. [Can assure you that many of QAN’s institutional shareholders are not imamate of ‘Robbing Peter to pay Paul, especially while the Company needs to bolster its free cash flow in order to retain its Credit Rating.]
Delaying the B787 until 2014 will no doubt mean changes to yesterday’s business plan and the obvious solution to the Qantas group’s piloting needs is the Group Opportunity Allocation list (GOAL). Its introduction would:
· Help standardise operational standards throughout the Qantas Group,
· Enhance job security for all Qantas Group pilots,
· Optimise career progression for all Group Pilots in accordance with prevailing commercial reality, and
· Put in place a building block necessary for Qantas’ Globalisation.
As we all know, nothing is certain in life, especially in aviation. Nevertheless, believe changed circumstances will bring the GOAL to fruition in the not too distant future.
IMHO, is no need to sell the new car just yet?
Trust the above helps you rest easier.
Kind Regards
Ian Woods
www.aviationeconomics.com.au
Last edited by WoodenEye; 26th Jun 2009 at 02:29.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugh,
be carefull listening to advice from your more senior pilots and AIPA..They will be okay as always while the young guys suffer[i know it once happened to me,and i lost my job] .The QF pilots have just been given a 16% pay rise for no offsets over the term of there EBA making them the most expensive Pilot group in the world.The first thing the company did was give the 767 freighter flying away,this should tell you something,there is more to come.Flying a 767 to NZ,complete with a personal flight attendant,with crew changes etc was always a nonsense.
The GOAL list is a pipe dream and will never happen.The cost to administer it and the extra Pilots required to make it work are incalcuable.
I feel sorry for you and your colleagues in similar positions and know how you feel believe me i have been there. Hiding behind your EBA as some have suggested will not help you retain employment,it is the cause of the problem,not the solution.
Good luck to you and guys in similar positions.It is going to be a rocky road and lets hope the majority of us come through with employment.
Take care.
be carefull listening to advice from your more senior pilots and AIPA..They will be okay as always while the young guys suffer[i know it once happened to me,and i lost my job] .The QF pilots have just been given a 16% pay rise for no offsets over the term of there EBA making them the most expensive Pilot group in the world.The first thing the company did was give the 767 freighter flying away,this should tell you something,there is more to come.Flying a 767 to NZ,complete with a personal flight attendant,with crew changes etc was always a nonsense.
The GOAL list is a pipe dream and will never happen.The cost to administer it and the extra Pilots required to make it work are incalcuable.
I feel sorry for you and your colleagues in similar positions and know how you feel believe me i have been there. Hiding behind your EBA as some have suggested will not help you retain employment,it is the cause of the problem,not the solution.
Good luck to you and guys in similar positions.It is going to be a rocky road and lets hope the majority of us come through with employment.
Take care.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: crossthepaddock
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where is the alternative crewing options that can be used to negotiate any new scenario that arises when Qantas decides to outsource more flying?
That's right, no where.
Forget the group list. It has some merit but the fact is the company doesn't want a bar of it and whilst some continue to hold onto 'the dream', more and more flying walks out the door. What is the size of jetstars fleet now?
Amoungst the current pilot group, there are many who have worked in other major airlines else where, seeing many variations of contracts.... good, bad and ugly. Why aren't these conditions used as examples to debate their merit amoungst all qf pilots and consider various options to create alternatives to the current award?
I suppose the biggest problem lies in the fact that the company couldn't give a flying ^&*% about any junior pilots future career and just continues on the bottom line drive.
As for redundant pilots, I'm sure the 100+ over 60s will consider their positions to look after the junior bretheren,...not.
That's right, no where.
Forget the group list. It has some merit but the fact is the company doesn't want a bar of it and whilst some continue to hold onto 'the dream', more and more flying walks out the door. What is the size of jetstars fleet now?
Amoungst the current pilot group, there are many who have worked in other major airlines else where, seeing many variations of contracts.... good, bad and ugly. Why aren't these conditions used as examples to debate their merit amoungst all qf pilots and consider various options to create alternatives to the current award?
I suppose the biggest problem lies in the fact that the company couldn't give a flying ^&*% about any junior pilots future career and just continues on the bottom line drive.
As for redundant pilots, I'm sure the 100+ over 60s will consider their positions to look after the junior bretheren,...not.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetbest, that 16% included pay rises for the last nearly five years that we missed out on, not over the length of the current EBA. Can you please point me in the direction where you found the figures to say that QF pilots are the most expensive in the world please? I'd be interested to see what aothers are being paid.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So when Qantas pilots get the chop they automaticaly want a safety net into the Q group but when a Qantaslink pilot gets told his job is no longer ( as has happened) and is looking to the group for assistance , guess what, AIPA dont answer the phone. Its taken awhile but it was always going to happen. 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a very difficult issue for the JPA/JPCC as there is now a very close working relationship with AIPA. This is the same AIPA that has a vast majority of mainline pilots as its' members and who will do everything possible to protect those pilots above other membership groups, including Jetstar.
I am sure that Jetstar pilots will actively resist any move by AIPA to promote a scheme where Qantas pilots who are not at risk seniority wise, come into Jetstar above the lowest seniority number.
Of course this doesn't apply to junior QF pilots such as Hugh, who may be looking at redundancy later this year. In the spirit of keeping this group of people employed within the QF group, I don't believe there would be any objection to a negotiated transfer at a seniority number below the most junior Jetstar number.
I am sure that Jetstar pilots will actively resist any move by AIPA to promote a scheme where Qantas pilots who are not at risk seniority wise, come into Jetstar above the lowest seniority number.
Of course this doesn't apply to junior QF pilots such as Hugh, who may be looking at redundancy later this year. In the spirit of keeping this group of people employed within the QF group, I don't believe there would be any objection to a negotiated transfer at a seniority number below the most junior Jetstar number.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: crossthepaddock
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Led, every position AIPA has promoted has ALWAYS looked at protecting jetstar guys seniority, within jetstar, above anyone else, as it should be. The group list, as promoted by Ian also protected this important point.
This point is sometimes lost by some, to the detriment of a general movement forward with the idea of protecting jobs and not seeing the further deterioration of terms and conditions or general career progression.
This point is sometimes lost by some, to the detriment of a general movement forward with the idea of protecting jobs and not seeing the further deterioration of terms and conditions or general career progression.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: On a date with destiny.
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, you gotta love pprune... The utter BS that gets slung back and forth, by so called experts, is astounding!!!
Certainly all doom and gloom at the moment, but get in touch with the appropriate people ie. AIPA and they will be able to shed a bit more light on the situation...
I am sure the plan changes from day to day, as far as the company is concerned, so stay tuned...
May the force be with us all...
Certainly all doom and gloom at the moment, but get in touch with the appropriate people ie. AIPA and they will be able to shed a bit more light on the situation...
I am sure the plan changes from day to day, as far as the company is concerned, so stay tuned...
May the force be with us all...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tried too get in contact with AIPA in the mid 90's , did not want to know us. Now I'm invited. How times are changing.
P.S. I dont want to see anyone loose their job ! Good luck.
P.S. I dont want to see anyone loose their job ! Good luck.
Last edited by Tassie Devil; 26th Jun 2009 at 11:59.
Nunc est bibendum
Con, the same applies if some J* crew decide to transfer to QF. They slot in above a number of QF drivers. That was the deal negotiated and agreed upon by both pilot groups. As Led Zepp well knows that same agreement allows a significant number of J* crew to transfer to mainline at a seniority number above a number a significant number of current QF drivers.
Tassie, your comments are hard to reconcile. On the one hand the prospect of 2500 well remunerated pilot jobs fading away seems to bring you great joy and yet you insist that you don't want to see people loose (sic) their jobs. If it's the former then I'm sorry that AIPA's rejection of you (I presume as a regional driver) in the mid 90s has left you so bitter and twisted. If it's the latter then your continued harping on about events of a decade and a half ago is neither productive or sensible. A number of us have apologised on this forum for the lack of foresight shown by a number of successive AIPA COMs over the years in not being more open to regional crews and then Impulse crews. A number of us have advocated for stronger ties between the pilot groups. This continued division (and faux joy at the potential demise of 1400 QF crew who weren't in QF in 95) doesn't contribute towards the unity and stability required to combat an antagonistic management regime. Each to their own I guess.
Tassie, your comments are hard to reconcile. On the one hand the prospect of 2500 well remunerated pilot jobs fading away seems to bring you great joy and yet you insist that you don't want to see people loose (sic) their jobs. If it's the former then I'm sorry that AIPA's rejection of you (I presume as a regional driver) in the mid 90s has left you so bitter and twisted. If it's the latter then your continued harping on about events of a decade and a half ago is neither productive or sensible. A number of us have apologised on this forum for the lack of foresight shown by a number of successive AIPA COMs over the years in not being more open to regional crews and then Impulse crews. A number of us have advocated for stronger ties between the pilot groups. This continued division (and faux joy at the potential demise of 1400 QF crew who weren't in QF in 95) doesn't contribute towards the unity and stability required to combat an antagonistic management regime. Each to their own I guess.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg,
I think Con was responding to:
That is an incorrect statement.
There was never going to be any realistic reverse transfer of JQ pilots to QF under that MOU, and so in this context, the traffic was indeed all one sided.
But to get back to the topic, and help the guy that started this thread. Both sides of the fence should be working to keep these junior QF pilots employed in the group. Jetstar desperately needs F/O's and they could fill positions immediately at the bottom of the Jetstar list.
This is what the AIPA should be pushing hardest for, not for the selfish transfer of "not at risk" pilots into the middle of the Jetstar seniority list.
I think Con was responding to:
every position AIPA has promoted has ALWAYS looked at protecting jetstar guys seniority, within jetstar, above anyone else
There was never going to be any realistic reverse transfer of JQ pilots to QF under that MOU, and so in this context, the traffic was indeed all one sided.
But to get back to the topic, and help the guy that started this thread. Both sides of the fence should be working to keep these junior QF pilots employed in the group. Jetstar desperately needs F/O's and they could fill positions immediately at the bottom of the Jetstar list.
This is what the AIPA should be pushing hardest for, not for the selfish transfer of "not at risk" pilots into the middle of the Jetstar seniority list.
Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 26th Jun 2009 at 21:54.
[QUOTE][There was never going to be any realistic reverse transfer of JQ pilots to QF under that MOU, and so in this context, the traffic was indeed all one sided.
/QUOTE]
The reason why it was all one way, was because of the impact of Jetstar to promotion, the far majority would not have seniority for an fo slot in Qantas.
Anyone post 2004 would struggle for that on the east coast.
Out of interest, how many pilots within Jetstar have asked to come across to qantas on the mou? I'd imagine minimal.
Are any positions at jetstar at risk currently? This is great news for all junior QF330 SO's as they watch Jetstar 330s taxi out.
/QUOTE]
The reason why it was all one way, was because of the impact of Jetstar to promotion, the far majority would not have seniority for an fo slot in Qantas.Anyone post 2004 would struggle for that on the east coast.
Out of interest, how many pilots within Jetstar have asked to come across to qantas on the mou? I'd imagine minimal.
Are any positions at jetstar at risk currently? This is great news for all junior QF330 SO's as they watch Jetstar 330s taxi out.