CASA premature ADS-B mandate will result in even more pilots losing jobs
Thread Starter
Dick N. Cider let me explain it to you. It is about people losing their jobs in the aviation industry. I, and some other astute business people, believe that the main result of Australia introducing mandatory ADS-B requirement s 7 years ahead of the United States will be job losses.
Of course the cargo cultist professional pilots come on this site and say that all of these small amounts of money mean nothing and you can continue to come up with unique requirements like ADS-B, or ASIC cards, and because they are all only small amounts it will have no affect on our industry.
I, others, and more and more of the silent majority are starting to understand that this industry is not through the worst of it. Many of us believe it will get far worse, and many thousands more pilots will lose their jobs.
The best way to make our industry efficient is to copy the least expensive requirements from around the world. The United States had decided not to mandate ADS-B until 2020. One of the reasons they have done this is because they know the enormous cost of such a mandate.
Yes, they do have radar across their continent. That’s because they have big cities in the middle of their continent. The only reason we do not have radar coverage in the Simpson Desert is that it would be a huge misallocation of resources.
This thread is about job losses and the need for the Government to take this into account when allowing CASA to lead the world with expensive rules that are not based on any measurable safety problem.
Of course the cargo cultist professional pilots come on this site and say that all of these small amounts of money mean nothing and you can continue to come up with unique requirements like ADS-B, or ASIC cards, and because they are all only small amounts it will have no affect on our industry.
I, others, and more and more of the silent majority are starting to understand that this industry is not through the worst of it. Many of us believe it will get far worse, and many thousands more pilots will lose their jobs.
The best way to make our industry efficient is to copy the least expensive requirements from around the world. The United States had decided not to mandate ADS-B until 2020. One of the reasons they have done this is because they know the enormous cost of such a mandate.
Yes, they do have radar across their continent. That’s because they have big cities in the middle of their continent. The only reason we do not have radar coverage in the Simpson Desert is that it would be a huge misallocation of resources.
This thread is about job losses and the need for the Government to take this into account when allowing CASA to lead the world with expensive rules that are not based on any measurable safety problem.
Thread Starter
Owen Stanley, you are in dreamworld. The units you are talking about that boffins are working on here in Australia may one day appear in an unpressurised GA aircraft. However the cost will be many times the amount quoted. This is because many of these local people simply have no idea of the enormous cost to properly TSO a unit.
These units are not designed to go in pressurised airline standard aircraft that will operate above FL290. Do you really believe that in the glass panel of my Citation, crammed with Collins equipment, I can cut another hole (where?) to fit a standalone ADS-B unit made by someone in an Australian country town?
What does this have to do with mandating the requirement 7 years ahead of the USA? Or are you suggesting the mandate comes from CASA to help these businesses? If that is so it should be clear that the Government has this policy. I have not heard of it.
ADS-B is a great gizmo and over the years it is going to roll out so most aircraft will be fitted. I have a feeling in 4 or 5 years time you will find that something new will come along – i.e. the equivalent of a Next G phone – which is better than what the Americans are using in their airline equipment now, and what Airservices and CASA have decided to copy.
These units are not designed to go in pressurised airline standard aircraft that will operate above FL290. Do you really believe that in the glass panel of my Citation, crammed with Collins equipment, I can cut another hole (where?) to fit a standalone ADS-B unit made by someone in an Australian country town?
What does this have to do with mandating the requirement 7 years ahead of the USA? Or are you suggesting the mandate comes from CASA to help these businesses? If that is so it should be clear that the Government has this policy. I have not heard of it.
ADS-B is a great gizmo and over the years it is going to roll out so most aircraft will be fitted. I have a feeling in 4 or 5 years time you will find that something new will come along – i.e. the equivalent of a Next G phone – which is better than what the Americans are using in their airline equipment now, and what Airservices and CASA have decided to copy.
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Dick,
Agreed, the ADS-B of today is an evolved version of an elderly concept, due to be overtaken soon enough by a reasonably priced alternative. A man with entrepeneurial spirit and a gift for marketing might find a way to put his name to such a thing, perhaps even one compatible with a full Collins suite.....
I foresee a similar effect to going from a vacuum pump driven AH to the fancy solid state TV screens we get in the likes of a CJ3. The pilot will get a familiar result, but the method will be entirely different.
I'm going to take a step back here and seek your input as I'm struggling with your point;
You say (in effect) that a mandated event in 4 years time is going to cost jobs from now right up to and beyond that date. I don't follow this one.
Yes, we are in a recession. There will be job losses related to the recession. Regardless of where we currently are on the economic J-curve, experience suggests that 4 years is plenty of time to see a recovery begin, if not develop substantially. A business that is recovering and growing trade is hardly going to throw it's babies out with it's bathwater.
I'm comfortable with the principle that there isn't much of a problem to solve near Innaminka, but as time goes by and traffic in general increases, it might be worth staying ahead of the game.
I'm well aware of the foolishness of burdening industry with unnecessary and ongoing Oz only costs, but when a company of 20 odd employees is likely to spend +-10 grand on ASICs and DAMP between now and 2013 with no appreciable effect, adding a 0 on a one time device that might help them prevent an accident one day isn't a hard choice, especially when the opportunity might exist to incorporate it into a broader avionics upgrade.
BTW - for a stand alone unit, have you tried blue tak and an occy strap?
Agreed, the ADS-B of today is an evolved version of an elderly concept, due to be overtaken soon enough by a reasonably priced alternative. A man with entrepeneurial spirit and a gift for marketing might find a way to put his name to such a thing, perhaps even one compatible with a full Collins suite.....
I foresee a similar effect to going from a vacuum pump driven AH to the fancy solid state TV screens we get in the likes of a CJ3. The pilot will get a familiar result, but the method will be entirely different.
I'm going to take a step back here and seek your input as I'm struggling with your point;
You say (in effect) that a mandated event in 4 years time is going to cost jobs from now right up to and beyond that date. I don't follow this one.
Yes, we are in a recession. There will be job losses related to the recession. Regardless of where we currently are on the economic J-curve, experience suggests that 4 years is plenty of time to see a recovery begin, if not develop substantially. A business that is recovering and growing trade is hardly going to throw it's babies out with it's bathwater.
I'm comfortable with the principle that there isn't much of a problem to solve near Innaminka, but as time goes by and traffic in general increases, it might be worth staying ahead of the game.
I'm well aware of the foolishness of burdening industry with unnecessary and ongoing Oz only costs, but when a company of 20 odd employees is likely to spend +-10 grand on ASICs and DAMP between now and 2013 with no appreciable effect, adding a 0 on a one time device that might help them prevent an accident one day isn't a hard choice, especially when the opportunity might exist to incorporate it into a broader avionics upgrade.
BTW - for a stand alone unit, have you tried blue tak and an occy strap?
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If memory serves me well, was not ADS-B the fix for lack of ATC radar in Oz? So once again ASA and CASA go in different directions as they fail to reconcile each others organisational grand plans.
As usual the outcome is we find more ways of sending aviation industry income overseas as operators shift into lower cost aka less onerous regulatory outcomes, so it will mean some job losses but I would not count it in the thousands. Noticed the increasing o/s registered heavies and corporate jets op in and out of Oz over the past decade or so, especially in the last four.
If its business as usual we will go down to the wire on this, with everyone gearing up for it at great cost and training demands, aka FRMS, then abandon the whole process to a future date, I will go for 2025.
Still you never know Dick it may be a suitable 'nation building' program and Labour will fund it through the department whose name I cannot speak.
As usual the outcome is we find more ways of sending aviation industry income overseas as operators shift into lower cost aka less onerous regulatory outcomes, so it will mean some job losses but I would not count it in the thousands. Noticed the increasing o/s registered heavies and corporate jets op in and out of Oz over the past decade or so, especially in the last four.
If its business as usual we will go down to the wire on this, with everyone gearing up for it at great cost and training demands, aka FRMS, then abandon the whole process to a future date, I will go for 2025.
Still you never know Dick it may be a suitable 'nation building' program and Labour will fund it through the department whose name I cannot speak.
grip-pipe - as I said before most of SE Asia and Europe are mandating ADS-B at the same time as Australia. Effectively a very large percentage of the worlds Airline and corporate fleet are going to have to be so equipped by then as any aircraft operating into or through the airspace of those nations will have to be ADS-B equipped. This isn't a unique Australian requirement as implied by D Smith and his fairly myopic world view. How can this possibly send a single operator overseas ? This affects pretty much everybody in equal measure no matter where they are based. I would argue the US is the exception to the rule here - but of course with good reason (radar everywhere up high). In addition you seem to ignore the big cost savings this will bring. Can you guess how much extra fuel a 737 burns going across the bight because it is stuck 2 FLs below optimum due traffic 10NM ahead?
ps ADS-B in aircraft I operate do not have any direct pilot interface ie no panel space required.
ps ADS-B in aircraft I operate do not have any direct pilot interface ie no panel space required.
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Surely the airlines could cut a good deal now to ensure all new aircraft on order come fitted ADSB etc.
As far as upgrading older aircraft. Just take a look what a new TSO HF costs, there is not that much choice. How many different units of the ADSB will there be to put price pressure on the manufacturer?
As far as upgrading older aircraft. Just take a look what a new TSO HF costs, there is not that much choice. How many different units of the ADSB will there be to put price pressure on the manufacturer?
Is it because he'll be most pi$$ed off with the fact that he wont be able to sell the cheap imported junk rather than good Australian product.
You pontificate about buying Australian made, when it looks like Austalians may come up with an affordable unit it's 'lets watch while the Americans do it for 3 or 4 times the price', goodonya mate
You pontificate about buying Australian made, when it looks like Austalians may come up with an affordable unit it's 'lets watch while the Americans do it for 3 or 4 times the price', goodonya mate
Product to sell - invent an overblown issue ??
...of course, when the GPS sats get turned off...problems..
...those recent full page ADS-B ads
Owen Stanley, aircraft owners get the mag free
Errr, if the sat's get turned off = No watching via ADS-B...perhaps i'm paranoid that no one is watching me..
Haven't seen them, where are they?
A little paranoid perhaps? If I was you I'd hide under your bed, the government is watching everything you do, first it's through your mobile phone, cameras at work and NOW.........it's ADS-B
46 posts and degeneration sets in. Not one sceric of facts from the proponents of this thread other than scaremongering over job losses.
Next method is to denigrate opponents as NON OWNERS who have no real say in how things should be....sounds like "pay your way, have your say" BS from the eighties/nineties that precipitated this sorry mess....Tell me Dick, did you actually BUY your first aeroplane and then learn to fly in it or did you start off like the rest of us and nearly every other pilot on the planet and pay for the hours to learn. If this is the case, do you quietly rejoice the fact that someone invested their hard earned in making an investment in aviation?
Dick,If you did buy your own, did you quietly rejoice in the fact that your instructors invested their hard earned in getting to such a position they could give you quality instruction? Do you also quietly rejoice in the fact that someone took a punt in investing in aircraft for those pilots to learn in?
I know a guy who flies for a guy who has a few quid. He just got a new toy to go with his other toy and looks like getting another toy with longer legs and now heads a department of five pilots to fly the guy with a few quid around the planet. Not bad for being semi-retired. Now, I met the guy with a few quid. I am pretty sure he would sue for a device that would allow him more DCT tracking if it got him to where he wanted to go even fifteen minutes quicker. I am pretty damn sure he wouldn't look at the device and one of his drivers and have to decide which to keep.
If you have to think how much the Roller costs to run then you cannot afford it.
The same goes for you, Joker!
AirServices only want the transponder. Regardless what "owners" think. If you do not like this you can go fly something that has numbers for a rego. AND their days are numbered too. ABV050 and airspace comes with certain trade-offs.
Smith, do you REALLY understand why the yanks have set 2020 and the rest of the planet is going earlier.
Next method is to denigrate opponents as NON OWNERS who have no real say in how things should be....sounds like "pay your way, have your say" BS from the eighties/nineties that precipitated this sorry mess....Tell me Dick, did you actually BUY your first aeroplane and then learn to fly in it or did you start off like the rest of us and nearly every other pilot on the planet and pay for the hours to learn. If this is the case, do you quietly rejoice the fact that someone invested their hard earned in making an investment in aviation?
Dick,If you did buy your own, did you quietly rejoice in the fact that your instructors invested their hard earned in getting to such a position they could give you quality instruction? Do you also quietly rejoice in the fact that someone took a punt in investing in aircraft for those pilots to learn in?
I know a guy who flies for a guy who has a few quid. He just got a new toy to go with his other toy and looks like getting another toy with longer legs and now heads a department of five pilots to fly the guy with a few quid around the planet. Not bad for being semi-retired. Now, I met the guy with a few quid. I am pretty sure he would sue for a device that would allow him more DCT tracking if it got him to where he wanted to go even fifteen minutes quicker. I am pretty damn sure he wouldn't look at the device and one of his drivers and have to decide which to keep.
If you have to think how much the Roller costs to run then you cannot afford it.
The same goes for you, Joker!
AirServices only want the transponder. Regardless what "owners" think. If you do not like this you can go fly something that has numbers for a rego. AND their days are numbered too. ABV050 and airspace comes with certain trade-offs.
Smith, do you REALLY understand why the yanks have set 2020 and the rest of the planet is going earlier.
Thread Starter
OZ Why is there a mandate?
If ADSB brings advantages to Bizjets such as direct tracking and these advantages are cost effective owners will update. It's called the marketplace.
I think you may find the early mandate exists because the boffins want to lead the world -no other reason.
The reason I owned my own aircraft from very early days is that I ran a business which concentrated on not wasting expenditure if there were to be no effective productivity improvements.
Fortunately in Electronics and Publishing I did not have the equivalent of CASA forcing extra costs on my business
If I had I probably would have gone broke.
OZ, I want more people employed in Aviation not less - that's why a started this thread. How can $20 million of costs be added to a small part of our industry without effecting jobs?
And by the way- when I am out in the outback in the CJ I always get direct tracking when I ask for it - and that's now before ADSB.
The reason is obvious -there is hardly anyone else there!
And there are going to be less in future.
If ADSB brings advantages to Bizjets such as direct tracking and these advantages are cost effective owners will update. It's called the marketplace.
I think you may find the early mandate exists because the boffins want to lead the world -no other reason.
The reason I owned my own aircraft from very early days is that I ran a business which concentrated on not wasting expenditure if there were to be no effective productivity improvements.
Fortunately in Electronics and Publishing I did not have the equivalent of CASA forcing extra costs on my business
If I had I probably would have gone broke.
OZ, I want more people employed in Aviation not less - that's why a started this thread. How can $20 million of costs be added to a small part of our industry without effecting jobs?
And by the way- when I am out in the outback in the CJ I always get direct tracking when I ask for it - and that's now before ADSB.
The reason is obvious -there is hardly anyone else there!
And there are going to be less in future.
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The reason you get direct tracking is that the technology in the ATC centres has been subject to constant improvement. TAAATS and its associated upgrades (like the LAT-C tool) makes working out non-radar areas of conflict much quicker and easier than before. ADS-B is just another tool in the ever improving aviation world.
Is there any talk of a subsidy for this requirement?
Cheers,
NFR.
Is there any talk of a subsidy for this requirement?
Cheers,
NFR.
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The aviation comunity was fed a whole lot of "pie in the sky" falsehoods about ADSB.
That has been proved because none of it eventuated.
ADSB, or a later version will eventually be mandated for use in controlled airspace. But not yet. ASA and the airlines would benefit from this.
On board weather data, terain, and synthetic vision would be more useful for most GA pilots and operators.
That has been proved because none of it eventuated.
ADSB, or a later version will eventually be mandated for use in controlled airspace. But not yet. ASA and the airlines would benefit from this.
On board weather data, terain, and synthetic vision would be more useful for most GA pilots and operators.
Last edited by bushy; 17th May 2009 at 12:47.
Dick,
I would imagine the reason why ASA hasn't left it to market forces for Aircraft owners to install ADS-B is because .... just because you have it, doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be provided with any efficiencies. If ATC don't know where the other guy is ... you won't get the short cuts. Everyone has to be in it for true efficiency.
I would imagine the reason why ASA hasn't left it to market forces for Aircraft owners to install ADS-B is because .... just because you have it, doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be provided with any efficiencies. If ATC don't know where the other guy is ... you won't get the short cuts. Everyone has to be in it for true efficiency.
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Worth repeating that..........
I would imagine the reason why ASA hasn't left it to market forces for Aircraft owners to install ADS-B is because .... just because you have it, doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be provided with any efficiencies. If ATC don't know where the other guy is ... you won't get the short cuts. Everyone has to be in it for true efficiency.