Qantas Link in Crisis again....now its for Captains!
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Surveillance Australia
Surveillance has had 4 -300's in their fleet for about a year now, 3 of these brand new off the shelf.
i believe the Pay/Bonus scheme is along the lines of
Capt yr 1: $100,000
Retention: $40,000
Productivity bonus :$10,000
Yr 2 is the same but throwing in CPI into the base salary
Yr 3 the retention bonus goes up to approx $90,000
FO's
Yr 1 Salary: $65,000
Retention : $25,000
Productivity: $6,000
Yr 2 is the same
Yr 3 retention goes up to approx $50,000
Productivity goes up to approx $10,000
I believe these numbers are pretty accurate to with in a couple of $k but dont take it as the holy grail unless someone else confirms it
i believe the Pay/Bonus scheme is along the lines of
Capt yr 1: $100,000
Retention: $40,000
Productivity bonus :$10,000
Yr 2 is the same but throwing in CPI into the base salary
Yr 3 the retention bonus goes up to approx $90,000
FO's
Yr 1 Salary: $65,000
Retention : $25,000
Productivity: $6,000
Yr 2 is the same
Yr 3 retention goes up to approx $50,000
Productivity goes up to approx $10,000
I believe these numbers are pretty accurate to with in a couple of $k but dont take it as the holy grail unless someone else confirms it
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You guys flying the regional routes in high performance turboprops are worth every cent you get and more.
It is ironic that the "group" pay some of the hardest working pilots the least amount of money.
When will this mob wake up?
Give the guys a decent wage and career progression and all of your crewing problems go away!!!
Is it really that hard to understand by these "managers" ?
Their brilliant "policies" are merely supplying the opposition and others with a steady supply of experienced pilots.
It is ironic that the "group" pay some of the hardest working pilots the least amount of money.
When will this mob wake up?
Give the guys a decent wage and career progression and all of your crewing problems go away!!!
Is it really that hard to understand by these "managers" ?
Their brilliant "policies" are merely supplying the opposition and others with a steady supply of experienced pilots.
Funny how you can flog up and down the East coast in and out of a mix of non-controlled aerodromes and international airports in the Dash-8, but not be good enough to progress onto the B737 or god forbid the B747 for Qantas mainline.
Thats right Eastern are the training airline for Qantas's competitor's.
Thats right Eastern are the training airline for Qantas's competitor's.
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Obviously written by somebody who has never been over FL250 and 250 knots indicated. How about you guys give some of these airline's training departments just a little credit...they do actually learn something new when they go to their next employer.
Not everyone "learned" to fly at Eastern.
Not everyone "learned" to fly at Eastern.
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There are still 2 experienced Dash Drivers coming from South Africa to Q-link early 2009
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Yeah, but I'll take an experienced grey beard over a newbie any day and the insurance carriers, the regulator and the majority of the fare paying public happen to agree with me. So I guess despite your youthful exuberance, you're outnumbered Wynsock.
I'm sure mummy and daddy are paying the bills while you play your Playstation at home on your days off. There are too many of these types right now with the culture of "arrogant ignorance" that has been present in the public school system for some years now.
As a result are seeing the same disrespect on flight decks, combined with lower than average IQs, poor work ethic, poor punctuality, poor execution of the most mundane flying tasks, poor dress and the lowest levels of mechanical aptitude we've ever seen. I honestly don't know how some of these people could even start a lawn mower let alone a jet.
Parliament needs to step in and stop all forms of bonding and other forms of identured servitude so that we can get the right experience back into the cockpit at free market rates.
I'm sure mummy and daddy are paying the bills while you play your Playstation at home on your days off. There are too many of these types right now with the culture of "arrogant ignorance" that has been present in the public school system for some years now.
As a result are seeing the same disrespect on flight decks, combined with lower than average IQs, poor work ethic, poor punctuality, poor execution of the most mundane flying tasks, poor dress and the lowest levels of mechanical aptitude we've ever seen. I honestly don't know how some of these people could even start a lawn mower let alone a jet.
Parliament needs to step in and stop all forms of bonding and other forms of identured servitude so that we can get the right experience back into the cockpit at free market rates.
Last edited by Kangaroo Court; 18th Dec 2008 at 13:09.
ooops!
Sorry Gav', and everyone else, those figures I quoted for the S/A bonuses were a tad inflated. Gavs figures are correct.
Still, about the right coin though
Sorry Gav', and everyone else, those figures I quoted for the S/A bonuses were a tad inflated. Gavs figures are correct.
Still, about the right coin though
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Kangaroo Court,
That's what happens when you pay peanuts; the monkey turns up.
Oh, and BTW, I forgot how much harder it is to fly above 250 and faster than 250 IAS. I think it took me an extra sector to get used to it. You must be REALLY clever to fly that high and that fast.
That's what happens when you pay peanuts; the monkey turns up.
Oh, and BTW, I forgot how much harder it is to fly above 250 and faster than 250 IAS. I think it took me an extra sector to get used to it. You must be REALLY clever to fly that high and that fast.
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To Tee Emm
Being a "superb operator" is only the very beginning to becoming a safe pilot.
Experience does not EQUAL safe, but it does make you inherently safer as you have seen, heard, been through, had different system failures, human factors experiences that a "newbie" hasn't. Each experience is always unique. An engine failure experience you have tomorrow will be different in so many ways than the one you had 10 years ago. But that experience you had 10 years ago will help you to some degree through the next one. Yes, after a certain number of flight hours the number becomes irrelevant and a "bloody awful" pilot stays a "bloody awful" pilot. But experience is the reason for the old saying "....there are no old bold pilots". Give me at least one "old" pilot up front when I'm sitting down the back, please. Qlink, Rex, etc. should be happy to pay for it. Thr "bean" counters are only responsible for the "beans".The Chief Pilots, not standing up for their pilots, will be held morally responsible for the known loss of their airlines experience levels.
(Ever notice when you sit next to a 'newbie", they want to tell you about their one "scary" experience?)
Being a "superb operator" is only the very beginning to becoming a safe pilot.
Experience does not EQUAL safe, but it does make you inherently safer as you have seen, heard, been through, had different system failures, human factors experiences that a "newbie" hasn't. Each experience is always unique. An engine failure experience you have tomorrow will be different in so many ways than the one you had 10 years ago. But that experience you had 10 years ago will help you to some degree through the next one. Yes, after a certain number of flight hours the number becomes irrelevant and a "bloody awful" pilot stays a "bloody awful" pilot. But experience is the reason for the old saying "....there are no old bold pilots". Give me at least one "old" pilot up front when I'm sitting down the back, please. Qlink, Rex, etc. should be happy to pay for it. Thr "bean" counters are only responsible for the "beans".The Chief Pilots, not standing up for their pilots, will be held morally responsible for the known loss of their airlines experience levels.
(Ever notice when you sit next to a 'newbie", they want to tell you about their one "scary" experience?)
Last edited by b55; 18th Dec 2008 at 20:25.
Experience does not make you inherently safer, it gives you a base of knowledge which can be drawn on to make decisions. A pilot may become safer by utilising correctly their experiences and those of others.
Others may use this knowledge to operate outside of published procedure or push on because they've done it before, so actually increasing risk factors.
I would like to know what changes above FL250 (apart from the obvious oxy requirements), is it the division between Earth and space or the point from where the pilot just watches the 'playstation' fly the aircraft...
Others may use this knowledge to operate outside of published procedure or push on because they've done it before, so actually increasing risk factors.
I would like to know what changes above FL250 (apart from the obvious oxy requirements), is it the division between Earth and space or the point from where the pilot just watches the 'playstation' fly the aircraft...
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43inches
"Others may use this knowledge to operate outside of published procedure or push on because they've done it before so actually increasing risk factors'.
Agreed. I should have used the word "SHOULD".This is the group I believe TEE EMM is refering to as being "bloody awful" pilots. Always bad apples in any basket. But his statement that experience means SFA is incorrect.
"Others may use this knowledge to operate outside of published procedure or push on because they've done it before so actually increasing risk factors'.
Agreed. I should have used the word "SHOULD".This is the group I believe TEE EMM is refering to as being "bloody awful" pilots. Always bad apples in any basket. But his statement that experience means SFA is incorrect.
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I would suggest that the disparity in pay between SA and QLINK, REX has more to do with the customers willingness/ability to pay than the bean counters per se. If you divide the pilots' pay up between the pax it will always be harder to pay good rates on small capacity aircraft regardess of how hard the job is to actually do.
As the SA contract does not rely on pax revenue to raise funds their financial position is different. It would appear that they have been able to convince their customer (the Federal Government) that if they want a premium service they need to pay a premium rate. Harder to convince people in rural and regional areas who are short of cash that they need to pay 'big bucks' for their ticket when they see adds for cheap flights on jet aircraft.
As the SA contract does not rely on pax revenue to raise funds their financial position is different. It would appear that they have been able to convince their customer (the Federal Government) that if they want a premium service they need to pay a premium rate. Harder to convince people in rural and regional areas who are short of cash that they need to pay 'big bucks' for their ticket when they see adds for cheap flights on jet aircraft.
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It would have been so easy to head off the crisis they now have bought upon themselves. Previous pilot councils warned the company of this impending problem, but were essentially ignored because the amateurs in Sidchrome House# knew better. Now the chooks have come home to roost.
When I resigned, I was asked by both my Fleet Manager and the MFO what it would take for me to stay. Very simple:
1. Give me my lifestyle back (the reason I stayed for so long). 8 days off with split single days is not lifestyle for a shift worker. 10 days with 2 of those split would have satisfied me.
2. Give everyone a career progression into QF mainline. (That didn't necessarily mean I would use it, but having career prospects means everything to those that would use it). (Currently, career progression for Qantaslink captains is to VB, Cathay, Dragon & JQ via external application).
3. Fair and decent remuneration to match what is getting around, ie Surv. Aust.
The answer I received is now history.
Don't get me wrong. It was a great job with great co-workers and excellent training (some of the best around, IMHO).
Now, I get no more min rest overnights, and this roster I have 16 days off (all multiple days). I've not had less than 11 days off per roster since commencing flying.
I have my lifestyle back......
# A place where shiny tools are found.
Newsensation - that was one of the last things we tried through Pilot Council before I left. You know what the outcome was: You got cross crewing anyway and a "screw the lot of you" attitude from upstairs. Got to keep you separated (and at each other's throats). Well the jig's up, because there's now communication between the 2 Pilot Councils, and (hopefully) an understanding that all the antipathy over the past several years has been surreptitiously driven by Sidchrome House# to keep EBA's competitive.
Looks like it worked.....
When I resigned, I was asked by both my Fleet Manager and the MFO what it would take for me to stay. Very simple:
1. Give me my lifestyle back (the reason I stayed for so long). 8 days off with split single days is not lifestyle for a shift worker. 10 days with 2 of those split would have satisfied me.
2. Give everyone a career progression into QF mainline. (That didn't necessarily mean I would use it, but having career prospects means everything to those that would use it). (Currently, career progression for Qantaslink captains is to VB, Cathay, Dragon & JQ via external application).
3. Fair and decent remuneration to match what is getting around, ie Surv. Aust.
The answer I received is now history.
Don't get me wrong. It was a great job with great co-workers and excellent training (some of the best around, IMHO).
Now, I get no more min rest overnights, and this roster I have 16 days off (all multiple days). I've not had less than 11 days off per roster since commencing flying.
I have my lifestyle back......
# A place where shiny tools are found.
Newsensation - that was one of the last things we tried through Pilot Council before I left. You know what the outcome was: You got cross crewing anyway and a "screw the lot of you" attitude from upstairs. Got to keep you separated (and at each other's throats). Well the jig's up, because there's now communication between the 2 Pilot Councils, and (hopefully) an understanding that all the antipathy over the past several years has been surreptitiously driven by Sidchrome House# to keep EBA's competitive.
Looks like it worked.....
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 18th Dec 2008 at 23:44.
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Bloody good post that one! What a shame it takes somebody like Hugh Jarse to lament on this after the fact; rather than a smart company to see what they were losing before he got tempted to walk.
The stupidity of Qlink in this example is that they did an exit interview, but offered no reason for him to stay before they went through with the meeting.
Me thinks that is bad management!
Time to clean house in the puzzle palace. There's no question about it!
The stupidity of Qlink in this example is that they did an exit interview, but offered no reason for him to stay before they went through with the meeting.
Me thinks that is bad management!
Time to clean house in the puzzle palace. There's no question about it!
Icarus53 no mate I wont retract a fact. It is not offensive to the 'mega low timers' at QL because I'm sure that they would agree. How can I tell who is flying you ask? First of all I usually recognise the voice of the PNF, secondly I have never seen a QL Captain fly so de-stabilised, even the couple of bad ones, it's obvious. As far as the Check and Training department goes, yes they have lowered the standards for the 'new ones', they had to inorder to survive, simple. They may have to go lower yet!
Not being offensive just keeping it real and besides TROJAN764 is proof that '20000 hour Captains dont do bad landings'.
Merry Christmas
Not being offensive just keeping it real and besides TROJAN764 is proof that '20000 hour Captains dont do bad landings'.
Merry Christmas
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Bad Management.....who cares?
Not the lunatics running the asylum. We can rant here about bad management till 2030, but it isn't going to change.
The no talent ass clowns running QLink aren't concerned with the survival or improvement of the business, and they never have been. All they are concerned about is that they aren't blamed for all the F#%k ups.
So long as they can say it's not their department's fault, they are not concerned with fixing the problem. The examples of this are consistent and many. The loss of experienced crew is just another in a very long line of exceedingly poor management policies at this airline.
The loss of crew will be explained by MD to his masters as solely due to world events and the acute pilot shortage of 2007/08. No consideration will be given to the way that they have treated their crew for the past 7 years under his tenure.
Could a consistent reduction in real terms pay be the reason for this lack of crew, no.
Could a work place run on bullying and intimedation by an inadequate fleet manager be the reason, no.
Could ever worsening rosters be the reason driven by a pilot wannabe business manager, no.
Could management's steadfast refusal to allow a career path into mainline be the reason, no.
Could their consistent efforts to play each pilot group off against eachother be the reason, no.
In the end the only reason MD will tell his superiors that people left is because pilots want to fly jets and the market was such they could do nothing to stop the flow.
Whereas in fact, the real reason is because people just couldn't see any improvement ever happening while these ass coverers were in power. So anyone with any get up and go, got up and left
The no talent ass clowns running QLink aren't concerned with the survival or improvement of the business, and they never have been. All they are concerned about is that they aren't blamed for all the F#%k ups.
So long as they can say it's not their department's fault, they are not concerned with fixing the problem. The examples of this are consistent and many. The loss of experienced crew is just another in a very long line of exceedingly poor management policies at this airline.
The loss of crew will be explained by MD to his masters as solely due to world events and the acute pilot shortage of 2007/08. No consideration will be given to the way that they have treated their crew for the past 7 years under his tenure.
Could a consistent reduction in real terms pay be the reason for this lack of crew, no.
Could a work place run on bullying and intimedation by an inadequate fleet manager be the reason, no.
Could ever worsening rosters be the reason driven by a pilot wannabe business manager, no.
Could management's steadfast refusal to allow a career path into mainline be the reason, no.
Could their consistent efforts to play each pilot group off against eachother be the reason, no.
In the end the only reason MD will tell his superiors that people left is because pilots want to fly jets and the market was such they could do nothing to stop the flow.
Whereas in fact, the real reason is because people just couldn't see any improvement ever happening while these ass coverers were in power. So anyone with any get up and go, got up and left