Qantas Link in Crisis again....now its for Captains!
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Ron burgandy,
you've summed up the situation to a flamin' tee
Kangaroo Court,
I wasn't given the common courtesy of an exit interview, even though it is QF Corporate Policy to do so. I thought that as someone who'd given well in excess of 10 years service that would be the least I could expect. Perhaps Kumar gets to read them
(we can't have the truth filtering through to the EGM)
They got wind that I was successful at interview and approached me to confirm the fact. In fairness, I gave them every opportunity to do something about it, not just for me but for all the others that were in the interview process (and subsequently have also resigned).
The current mentality in Sidchrome House# appears to be "make people want to leave, instead of wanting to stay". They hold the Pilot Council in contempt and have not once acted in a positive manner towards addressing the current situation.
The toxic and draconian environment in Qantaslink will not change until Dr. Evil, Mini Me (and Fat Bastard, hiding in the wings, but still around) are replaced with people a modicum of competence.
you've summed up the situation to a flamin' tee
Kangaroo Court,
I wasn't given the common courtesy of an exit interview, even though it is QF Corporate Policy to do so. I thought that as someone who'd given well in excess of 10 years service that would be the least I could expect. Perhaps Kumar gets to read them
(we can't have the truth filtering through to the EGM)They got wind that I was successful at interview and approached me to confirm the fact. In fairness, I gave them every opportunity to do something about it, not just for me but for all the others that were in the interview process (and subsequently have also resigned).
The current mentality in Sidchrome House# appears to be "make people want to leave, instead of wanting to stay". They hold the Pilot Council in contempt and have not once acted in a positive manner towards addressing the current situation.
The toxic and draconian environment in Qantaslink will not change until Dr. Evil, Mini Me (and Fat Bastard, hiding in the wings, but still around) are replaced with people a modicum of competence.
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 19th Dec 2008 at 02:37. Reason: comment on ron burgandy's post
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Hugh,
it was great working with you and all who left and a real shame when the massive flow was occuring. Exciting for some; new career, better lifestyle and the rest...
People 'only want to fly jets'. Crap..we all know it as well. It comes down to one thing...its money! The end! Pay me equivalent wage as a jet pilot and yes, i would stay!
It sounds like your going well, shame you left mate. You are someone who is passionate and cares about the job and lifestyle. You have taken a lot to your new employer! Well done and thankyou.
I would like to point out though that I have found there are some people on the pilot council who need to relook at their own position and ask, why was I elected to this position!
Remember...you are there for the pilots...not your own personal agenda! Don't get defensive about this, just ask your pilot group what is wanted.
The silver surfers upstairs and many of the pilot group is sick of the current refusal by our pilot council and union to contribute to anything useful. Lately, all we get is a can't do attitude! Remember why you are there and ask your pilot group..without bullying them...what they want.
Those in the union must recognise who pays them as well!
Yes, we all agree that management can be better, but as a pilot group we should ask ourselves what can we do to improve our lifestyle!
Many missed opportunities have occured...what ever happened to a group seniority list!!! What about helping guys in Canberra out and those in Sydney that want to swap with them!! Isn't this improving our pilot group lifestyle. So much can be done. Look at the opportunities now for new Captains. The training department in QL is extremely professional and is an area of this company that actually looks at how to change operations and actually listens to the pilot group.
Remember, if you are a member on the pilot council, don't let this 'power' go to your head and don't become a dictator or protagonist!! Be there for the pilots, not yourself!
it was great working with you and all who left and a real shame when the massive flow was occuring. Exciting for some; new career, better lifestyle and the rest...
People 'only want to fly jets'. Crap..we all know it as well. It comes down to one thing...its money! The end! Pay me equivalent wage as a jet pilot and yes, i would stay!
It sounds like your going well, shame you left mate. You are someone who is passionate and cares about the job and lifestyle. You have taken a lot to your new employer! Well done and thankyou.
I would like to point out though that I have found there are some people on the pilot council who need to relook at their own position and ask, why was I elected to this position!
Remember...you are there for the pilots...not your own personal agenda! Don't get defensive about this, just ask your pilot group what is wanted.
The silver surfers upstairs and many of the pilot group is sick of the current refusal by our pilot council and union to contribute to anything useful. Lately, all we get is a can't do attitude! Remember why you are there and ask your pilot group..without bullying them...what they want.
Those in the union must recognise who pays them as well!
Yes, we all agree that management can be better, but as a pilot group we should ask ourselves what can we do to improve our lifestyle!
Many missed opportunities have occured...what ever happened to a group seniority list!!! What about helping guys in Canberra out and those in Sydney that want to swap with them!! Isn't this improving our pilot group lifestyle. So much can be done. Look at the opportunities now for new Captains. The training department in QL is extremely professional and is an area of this company that actually looks at how to change operations and actually listens to the pilot group.
Remember, if you are a member on the pilot council, don't let this 'power' go to your head and don't become a dictator or protagonist!! Be there for the pilots, not yourself!
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If there has been a recent exodus of captains and there is a large proportion of FO's who are not upgradable due to licence/hours requirements are QL taking direct entry captains? From the looks of this thread I would assume so however a brief look at the QL web page seems to suggest otherwise. Any ideas on this? If one were to have command experience on similar types would there be any scope for direct entry commands for the Canberra base for example? Cheers
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Hugh,
I'm sorry to hear about the way that ended!! What a way for them to behave after ten years of your own dedication. It's stories like this that really make me concerned for the future of air service to remote and outlying communities.
We can't just worry about shareholders, we really need to be seeing the benefits to our passengers of treating our employees as customers too. If they're happy, they'll stick around and do a good job..which is great for the bottom line.
This disposable numbers game that they have played for years in America is really half the problem with our industry in Australia. The history of putting one group of employees against another does nothing but ruin morale, lower empoyee participation in problem solving, increase absenteeism and result in higher training costs due to lower experience levels and high turnover.
This policy is about to bankrupt one of the regionals in America.
I'm sorry to hear about the way that ended!! What a way for them to behave after ten years of your own dedication. It's stories like this that really make me concerned for the future of air service to remote and outlying communities.
We can't just worry about shareholders, we really need to be seeing the benefits to our passengers of treating our employees as customers too. If they're happy, they'll stick around and do a good job..which is great for the bottom line.
This disposable numbers game that they have played for years in America is really half the problem with our industry in Australia. The history of putting one group of employees against another does nothing but ruin morale, lower empoyee participation in problem solving, increase absenteeism and result in higher training costs due to lower experience levels and high turnover.
This policy is about to bankrupt one of the regionals in America.
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To get me back, qlink would have to:
That is my final offer.
p.s.
Kangaroocaught...
With the greatest respect, wtf? 
I think you have me mistaken for some other fellow.
- apologise for the initial ridiculous measly offers,
- $100K, plus cpi increases, plus service, plus super, for Capt,
- $50k annual retainer for the next 5 yrs
- Back off on the roster whipping, we are shift workers!
- Lose a few min rest overnights
- Go back to workload pre Dr Evil
- Hand back my seniority
- Don't be such tight arses handing out the annual leave
That is my final offer.p.s.
Kangaroocaught...
So I guess despite your youthful exuberance, you're outnumbered Wynsock.
I think you have me mistaken for some other fellow.
Last edited by WynSock; 20th Dec 2008 at 02:05. Reason: and another thing...
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Wynsock,
First of all, sorry for the rant. We just had a fiasco at work with a training situation and I certainly hope that's not the way we are headed as an industry.
Respectfully though, I don't see how anybody should apologise to you when you took the job of your own free will and left the same way. It always made me laugh when during the 89 dispute the guys would come back in from the airlines they'd just left and expect a welcoming parade into G/A, stopping the progression of the guys who were next in line to fly something as small as a Baron.
Let's face it, they gave you good training, (which they must have if you're willing to defend it so well), they also put food on your table for several years and the aircraft were safe.
Their loss is that they were too dumb to see that the experience, training and the knowledge you had gained would be to the benefit of their competitor.
That makes them stupid!
First of all, sorry for the rant. We just had a fiasco at work with a training situation and I certainly hope that's not the way we are headed as an industry.
Respectfully though, I don't see how anybody should apologise to you when you took the job of your own free will and left the same way. It always made me laugh when during the 89 dispute the guys would come back in from the airlines they'd just left and expect a welcoming parade into G/A, stopping the progression of the guys who were next in line to fly something as small as a Baron.
Let's face it, they gave you good training, (which they must have if you're willing to defend it so well), they also put food on your table for several years and the aircraft were safe.
Their loss is that they were too dumb to see that the experience, training and the knowledge you had gained would be to the benefit of their competitor.
That makes them stupid!
Give me a break!!!
Kangaroo Court
You are starting to piss me off my friend! Granted management could improve, but have been in far far worse managed companies, and as one other ppruner mentioned it is not completely managements fault that this crisis has resulted. The management at Qlink, in my opinion, openly listen to the pilot council, and ok so not everything is passed however the pilot council have done a bloody good job in putting the working lives of pilots at the link first as evidenced by the latest EBA.
Moving forward we need to stop blaming management for past decisions and start thinking (collectively) what needs to be done to get through this crisis. I don't have the answer for this at this point in time, however one suggestion I can immediately think of is to issue a change in the ICUS scheme eg. offer ICUS to FO's from day 1 in order to meet the command requirements sooner. The recruitment of D/E capts is also a good one however I see it difficult for them to be able to recruit enough D/E. Anyway it willl be interesting
Finally as for the comment about flying above FL250, all I can really say is I think perhaps the additional cosmic radiation that you are exposed to at these levels have affected your brain!
You are starting to piss me off my friend! Granted management could improve, but have been in far far worse managed companies, and as one other ppruner mentioned it is not completely managements fault that this crisis has resulted. The management at Qlink, in my opinion, openly listen to the pilot council, and ok so not everything is passed however the pilot council have done a bloody good job in putting the working lives of pilots at the link first as evidenced by the latest EBA.
Moving forward we need to stop blaming management for past decisions and start thinking (collectively) what needs to be done to get through this crisis. I don't have the answer for this at this point in time, however one suggestion I can immediately think of is to issue a change in the ICUS scheme eg. offer ICUS to FO's from day 1 in order to meet the command requirements sooner. The recruitment of D/E capts is also a good one however I see it difficult for them to be able to recruit enough D/E. Anyway it willl be interesting
Finally as for the comment about flying above FL250, all I can really say is I think perhaps the additional cosmic radiation that you are exposed to at these levels have affected your brain!
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Happy Bandit
I'm sorry, but managements job is to prevent that from happening in the first place....that's why they bank all that dough and take the credit for millions of passengers flown safely on their behalf by you guys.
If they were doing their job; you wouldn't have had to negotiate anything but a cost of living increase in your EBA, especially when the laws of supply and demand were kicking in and they were losing crew.
Hell, even the Chinese are doing that...and it's a communist nation!!
Incidentally, I'm curious if you paid for your employment at Eastern?
I'm sorry, but managements job is to prevent that from happening in the first place....that's why they bank all that dough and take the credit for millions of passengers flown safely on their behalf by you guys.
If they were doing their job; you wouldn't have had to negotiate anything but a cost of living increase in your EBA, especially when the laws of supply and demand were kicking in and they were losing crew.
Hell, even the Chinese are doing that...and it's a communist nation!!
Incidentally, I'm curious if you paid for your employment at Eastern?
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I don't really think there is enough evidence to suggest that if Eastern increased command salaries to $130 000 that blokes would have stayed anyway.
I left on the day my command was awarded. Not with any grand notion that I had to fly a jet or that the money wasn't enough, just that it was a career objective I had set and I certainly feel satisfied that I have acheived that objective.
In hindsight I think it would probably be an awesome job still belting around in a Dash 8 doing RNAV approaches or NDB approaches at night etc. As Hugh Jarse said there would have to be a management shift though because they did make it rather unpleasant by rounding up anyone who stepped out of line and throwing the book at them wherever possible. People can't work under those conditions. Plus it just took too long to get to a command (5-7 years ), so a lot of good people left and went to fly jets.
What management have to take ownership of is the fact that those people may not have left if it was hard to leave; ie: good money $120 000 for a command and a bit of respect and give and take towards crew. But MD always openly said that pilots will always want to fly jets and if you don't like it you can leave.
So in trying to summarise this mind numbingly long post, I believe on the jet argument alone, they would have lost a handful but if the money was just a bit better with a chance of progression, a lot of extemely capable and experienced pilots would still be around, Hugh Jarse being one of them.
Instead they opted for a cadet type scheme and paying incentives, which probably cost a lot more overall, because they were paying those incentives to blokes who wouldn't have gone anywhere anyway.
GUARD
I left on the day my command was awarded. Not with any grand notion that I had to fly a jet or that the money wasn't enough, just that it was a career objective I had set and I certainly feel satisfied that I have acheived that objective.
In hindsight I think it would probably be an awesome job still belting around in a Dash 8 doing RNAV approaches or NDB approaches at night etc. As Hugh Jarse said there would have to be a management shift though because they did make it rather unpleasant by rounding up anyone who stepped out of line and throwing the book at them wherever possible. People can't work under those conditions. Plus it just took too long to get to a command (5-7 years ), so a lot of good people left and went to fly jets.
What management have to take ownership of is the fact that those people may not have left if it was hard to leave; ie: good money $120 000 for a command and a bit of respect and give and take towards crew. But MD always openly said that pilots will always want to fly jets and if you don't like it you can leave.
So in trying to summarise this mind numbingly long post, I believe on the jet argument alone, they would have lost a handful but if the money was just a bit better with a chance of progression, a lot of extemely capable and experienced pilots would still be around, Hugh Jarse being one of them.
Instead they opted for a cadet type scheme and paying incentives, which probably cost a lot more overall, because they were paying those incentives to blokes who wouldn't have gone anywhere anyway.
GUARD
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True, but what is to prevent a cadet from leaving to fly a jet? Especially if they're going to be allowed ICUS time in their log books as F/Os, (when should have been earning real command time the old fashioned way) and looking like DEC prospects somewhere else?
Management not only have the cost burden of training, but none of the benefits of longevity.
Management not only have the cost burden of training, but none of the benefits of longevity.
Kangaroo - other than a fairly extensive bond for 3 or 4 years - nothing !
Main thing that is going to stop them is the fact that no one is is hiring too! (except a trickle at QF)
Main thing that is going to stop them is the fact that no one is is hiring too! (except a trickle at QF)
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I know it's been mentioned a thousand times before but....
Really, QF link don't need to offer any more money to their drivers- just guaranteed progression into Mainline.
This way people that want to stay can, or if they desire, move onto bigger things in the SAME group.
Wouldn't this solve most of QF Link's hassles with crew and be crisis averted?
Really, QF link don't need to offer any more money to their drivers- just guaranteed progression into Mainline.
This way people that want to stay can, or if they desire, move onto bigger things in the SAME group.
Wouldn't this solve most of QF Link's hassles with crew and be crisis averted?
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whinging again
hi all
why don't you ex eastern and sunstate pilots stop whinging about how the company is or was - i never saw any of you put your hand up to be fleet managers or chief pilots, probably never did any more than you had to at work unless you got paid for it (whats in it for me attitude) - i'm not a pilot - i'm ground staff and we get sick and tired of hearing about the poor pilots - i didn't get a sign on bonus for my eba, or a 40 dollar bonus at the end of 2 years if i stay - i work my ar_e off for poor money in the office having to listen to your crap. I have been in the company for 20 yrs and seen changes come and go - structures within senior management come and go - but remember - you guys still have a cushy job, secure job, steady money coming in etc - all i can say is thank god you've gone and went to work somewhere else - it won't belong before you're whinging about virgin or jetstar that your not being treated right or the management pilots don't listen too u - why would they if you just sit and cry all day = god i would hate to be in the cockpit with most of you - especialy on long trips - you forget its the ground staff that get the flick first when times are tough - do you give a stuff about us - no you don't care - as long as the crew meals are huge and hot - remember you've got good equipment to fly, all with apu's - geez you forget the shorts, twatters and bandits
why don't you ex eastern and sunstate pilots stop whinging about how the company is or was - i never saw any of you put your hand up to be fleet managers or chief pilots, probably never did any more than you had to at work unless you got paid for it (whats in it for me attitude) - i'm not a pilot - i'm ground staff and we get sick and tired of hearing about the poor pilots - i didn't get a sign on bonus for my eba, or a 40 dollar bonus at the end of 2 years if i stay - i work my ar_e off for poor money in the office having to listen to your crap. I have been in the company for 20 yrs and seen changes come and go - structures within senior management come and go - but remember - you guys still have a cushy job, secure job, steady money coming in etc - all i can say is thank god you've gone and went to work somewhere else - it won't belong before you're whinging about virgin or jetstar that your not being treated right or the management pilots don't listen too u - why would they if you just sit and cry all day = god i would hate to be in the cockpit with most of you - especialy on long trips - you forget its the ground staff that get the flick first when times are tough - do you give a stuff about us - no you don't care - as long as the crew meals are huge and hot - remember you've got good equipment to fly, all with apu's - geez you forget the shorts, twatters and bandits
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hi pimp daddy
i wouldn'y worry too much about the pilot skills - i remember many years ago some of the longer employed pilots had trouble flying when they joined our company - some required extra training at redcliffe etc because they could not get thru - its amazing these are the guys that prob write here and complain - what i hear some of these new f/o's fly well and leave the older ones for dead - true they don't have the life experience but neither did some of the older pilots
i think the regionals have some of the best training captains around and you all know the respect the regional pilots have with jetstar and virgin
i think the regionals have some of the best training captains around and you all know the respect the regional pilots have with jetstar and virgin