V Australia Operations DELAYED TO FEB09
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Australian Federation of Air Pilots 6/132 Albert Rd South Melbourne VIC 3205
T: 03 9928 5737 F: 03 9699 8199 E: [email protected] W: www.afap.org.au
TO: ALL VA AND VB PILOTS
RE: VA PILOTS TO LOSE CONTROL OVER OWN DESTINY UNDER
V-AUSTRALIA COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT
DATE: 26 SEPTEMBER 2008
Pilots to be Swamped by Majority
Numbers
V Australia (VA) pilots have been
invited/rostered to attend a so-called “Safety
Net” meeting with VA management
representatives over the course of the next
week. The Federation has learnt that the
company intends to push a new single,
collective agreement that it intends to apply
to both flight crew and cabin crew.
Due to the higher numbers of cabin crew
compared to flight crew, in a combined vote
of the two groups, cabin crew could impose
a single agreement on pilots, no matter how
offensive it is to the pilot body.
VA management has revealed already itself
as anti-union. It has adopted an aggressive
approach to its workforce, including pilots,
and through this approach hopes to isolate
the VA workforce’s unions (including the
Federation) from representing their
members. It is no coincidence that the
agreement that the company is proposing is
“non-union”.
An Attack On Your Wages And Rights
The Federation believes that the company,
through this single non-union collective
agreement, intends to further reduce pilot’s
wages and conditions (in real terms), your
workplace rights and life style benefits.
The Federation is very familiar with these
types of strategies. VA is not the only
aggressive, ideologically driven, anti-union
company. We saw plenty of them during the
peak of the Workchoices legislation which,
for the most part, we still operate under,
leaving companies like VA at large to attack
wages, conditions and job security.
This Is What You Could Be On The Line
Based on previous experiences within the
industry, VA pilots could expect to be
subject to the following provisions,
inclusions and omissions in the
proposal:
�� A 5 Year Agreement with NO
guaranteed wage increases
�� No Loss of Licence Cover
�� Ability for the company to unilaterally
vary a pilots home base
�� No roster stability or certainty of days
off
�� A requirement to be contactable 24/7
�� Flight and Duty Limitations covered
by company policy, not part of your
Agreement
�� No Death Benefit Insurance/cover
�� Company discretion to pay
allowances, such as meal allowances
�� No certainty surrounding payment of
salary intervals
�� Watered down powers of the AIRC to
resolve disputes with unfettered
powers of the company to terminate
employment, impose heavy penalties
and costs on pilots in the event of
certain grievances.
These could be to name just a few.
Australian Federation of Air Pilots 6/132 Albert Rd South Melbourne VIC 3205
T: 03 9928 5737 F: 03 9699 8199 E: [email protected] W: www.afap.org.au
Watch For the Snow Job
No doubt the company will try to sell a
positive message and hope to convince you
how well off you will be under their proposed
agreement. It may even say that the
workforce and company have a common
interest in moving forward under the
company’s strategy.
However, it is critical that each pilot consider
not so much what is in the agreement, but
rather what is not. And; as can be seen
above that list could be extremely significant.
If pilots attend the loosely named ‘safety
net meetings’, you are encouraged to
question what is being put to you.
• How are pilot’s rights protected if they
can be out voted by cabin crew?
• Why won’t the company agree to
negotiate with your union?
• What conditions that most Australian
pilots enjoy won’t apply to VA pilots?
• Am I guaranteed pay increases?
• Will I effectively be at the company’s
beckon call 24 hours a day, 365 days a
year?
Keep In Touch with the Federation
Pilots are encouraged to take notes, keep
copies of any material provided at the
meeting and to contact the Federation
following the meetings.
Whilst the Federation supports the concept
of a ‘collective’ agreement, we are
vehemently opposed to other groups, such
as cabin crew determining the employment
conditions and rights of pilots for potentially
the next five years. No doubt cabin crew
would share the view if the situation was
reversed and the pilots ‘had the numbers’.
This could be a protracted campaign. No
pilot is obliged to agree anything put to them
by the company. The Federation is
developing responses and strategies to
assist our VA members.
However, critical to any strategy is
communication, to inform and to be
informed. We must know who you are and
where you are. We are updating our data
base.
If you are a VA pilot and have not updated your details with the Federation please do so
immediately – either by email [email protected] or phone membership on 03 9928 57 37.
If you are not already an AFAP member you can down load a membership form from the
AFAP website, www.afap.org.au or phone the Federation on 03 9928 57 37.
MORE THAN EVER VB AND VA PILOTS NEED TO BE UNITED AND STICK TOGETHER.
T: 03 9928 5737 F: 03 9699 8199 E: [email protected] W: www.afap.org.au
TO: ALL VA AND VB PILOTS
RE: VA PILOTS TO LOSE CONTROL OVER OWN DESTINY UNDER
V-AUSTRALIA COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT
DATE: 26 SEPTEMBER 2008
Pilots to be Swamped by Majority
Numbers
V Australia (VA) pilots have been
invited/rostered to attend a so-called “Safety
Net” meeting with VA management
representatives over the course of the next
week. The Federation has learnt that the
company intends to push a new single,
collective agreement that it intends to apply
to both flight crew and cabin crew.
Due to the higher numbers of cabin crew
compared to flight crew, in a combined vote
of the two groups, cabin crew could impose
a single agreement on pilots, no matter how
offensive it is to the pilot body.
VA management has revealed already itself
as anti-union. It has adopted an aggressive
approach to its workforce, including pilots,
and through this approach hopes to isolate
the VA workforce’s unions (including the
Federation) from representing their
members. It is no coincidence that the
agreement that the company is proposing is
“non-union”.
An Attack On Your Wages And Rights
The Federation believes that the company,
through this single non-union collective
agreement, intends to further reduce pilot’s
wages and conditions (in real terms), your
workplace rights and life style benefits.
The Federation is very familiar with these
types of strategies. VA is not the only
aggressive, ideologically driven, anti-union
company. We saw plenty of them during the
peak of the Workchoices legislation which,
for the most part, we still operate under,
leaving companies like VA at large to attack
wages, conditions and job security.
This Is What You Could Be On The Line
Based on previous experiences within the
industry, VA pilots could expect to be
subject to the following provisions,
inclusions and omissions in the
proposal:
�� A 5 Year Agreement with NO
guaranteed wage increases
�� No Loss of Licence Cover
�� Ability for the company to unilaterally
vary a pilots home base
�� No roster stability or certainty of days
off
�� A requirement to be contactable 24/7
�� Flight and Duty Limitations covered
by company policy, not part of your
Agreement
�� No Death Benefit Insurance/cover
�� Company discretion to pay
allowances, such as meal allowances
�� No certainty surrounding payment of
salary intervals
�� Watered down powers of the AIRC to
resolve disputes with unfettered
powers of the company to terminate
employment, impose heavy penalties
and costs on pilots in the event of
certain grievances.
These could be to name just a few.
Australian Federation of Air Pilots 6/132 Albert Rd South Melbourne VIC 3205
T: 03 9928 5737 F: 03 9699 8199 E: [email protected] W: www.afap.org.au
Watch For the Snow Job
No doubt the company will try to sell a
positive message and hope to convince you
how well off you will be under their proposed
agreement. It may even say that the
workforce and company have a common
interest in moving forward under the
company’s strategy.
However, it is critical that each pilot consider
not so much what is in the agreement, but
rather what is not. And; as can be seen
above that list could be extremely significant.
If pilots attend the loosely named ‘safety
net meetings’, you are encouraged to
question what is being put to you.
• How are pilot’s rights protected if they
can be out voted by cabin crew?
• Why won’t the company agree to
negotiate with your union?
• What conditions that most Australian
pilots enjoy won’t apply to VA pilots?
• Am I guaranteed pay increases?
• Will I effectively be at the company’s
beckon call 24 hours a day, 365 days a
year?
Keep In Touch with the Federation
Pilots are encouraged to take notes, keep
copies of any material provided at the
meeting and to contact the Federation
following the meetings.
Whilst the Federation supports the concept
of a ‘collective’ agreement, we are
vehemently opposed to other groups, such
as cabin crew determining the employment
conditions and rights of pilots for potentially
the next five years. No doubt cabin crew
would share the view if the situation was
reversed and the pilots ‘had the numbers’.
This could be a protracted campaign. No
pilot is obliged to agree anything put to them
by the company. The Federation is
developing responses and strategies to
assist our VA members.
However, critical to any strategy is
communication, to inform and to be
informed. We must know who you are and
where you are. We are updating our data
base.
If you are a VA pilot and have not updated your details with the Federation please do so
immediately – either by email [email protected] or phone membership on 03 9928 57 37.
If you are not already an AFAP member you can down load a membership form from the
AFAP website, www.afap.org.au or phone the Federation on 03 9928 57 37.
MORE THAN EVER VB AND VA PILOTS NEED TO BE UNITED AND STICK TOGETHER.
Join Date: Aug 2008
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KRUSTY, most guys I know are holding back..biding their time and waiting to see what happens. For a number of reasons, but one is in support of their mates in VB and the fact they wish to see better T&C's for all. Their families are happy as are they. 
lr 3, so you wish you were a skipper on those terms too. You would take the job just to see others in the same job cry. Do not be so morbid. I do not think I would like to fly with you on my flight deck.
You've changed your tune Sam'.
On the other thread you had to gall to have a go at me because according to you I had not applied, and therefore, also according to you, I did not have the credentials to comment.
I would suggest you are now the subject of a very serious credibility gap!
On the other thread you had to gall to have a go at me because according to you I had not applied, and therefore, also according to you, I did not have the credentials to comment.
I would suggest you are now the subject of a very serious credibility gap!
Getzo.
There was no last time.
You seem to think that VA=VB. It doesn't.
There has been no EBA vote at VA. There has been no vote, period.
Get your eggs in their appropriate baskets before you run off at the mouth and demonstrate to all, your ignorance of the realities.
M
There was no last time.
You seem to think that VA=VB. It doesn't.
There has been no EBA vote at VA. There has been no vote, period.
Get your eggs in their appropriate baskets before you run off at the mouth and demonstrate to all, your ignorance of the realities.
M
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Maui,
Let me inform you of something, VA=VB was sold to the VB pilot group in company road shows prior to the EBA vote. VB pilots were led to believe that it would be done on straight seniority (sorry start date), and they would work their way down the list and offer positions if experience levels were met. There was no mention of pay and conditions (and the silly boys voted on the assumption that the pay would be better than VB), because they were told that if we accept a lower pay on the EMB then the pay on the 777 would be naturally higher.
THIS HAS ALL BEEN A TOTAL CON, WARNING TO ALL WHO ARE HEADING TO V, THIS IS HOW THEY OPERATE, ITS ALL LIES COUPLED WITH HOT WIND AND P%^S! IF ITS NOT MENTIONED IN THE FINE PRINT, IT WON'T HAPPEN.
With this credit crisis, I am glad I have not left my current job to head off to VB. Atleat you get three months pay severance (I think).
Let me inform you of something, VA=VB was sold to the VB pilot group in company road shows prior to the EBA vote. VB pilots were led to believe that it would be done on straight seniority (sorry start date), and they would work their way down the list and offer positions if experience levels were met. There was no mention of pay and conditions (and the silly boys voted on the assumption that the pay would be better than VB), because they were told that if we accept a lower pay on the EMB then the pay on the 777 would be naturally higher.
THIS HAS ALL BEEN A TOTAL CON, WARNING TO ALL WHO ARE HEADING TO V, THIS IS HOW THEY OPERATE, ITS ALL LIES COUPLED WITH HOT WIND AND P%^S! IF ITS NOT MENTIONED IN THE FINE PRINT, IT WON'T HAPPEN.
With this credit crisis, I am glad I have not left my current job to head off to VB. Atleat you get three months pay severance (I think).
Last edited by dirty deeds; 12th Oct 2008 at 09:18.
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Crunch Time
For all V Australia pilots out there now is the time to Unite and show these net monkies that as a pilot body or voice will be heard. Lets make our job a sustainable career and one we can be proud of.
PM me and ill send you some info so that we all have a common direction.
PM me and ill send you some info so that we all have a common direction.
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I would suggest any agreement vote will be a moot issue shortly anyway. It can only be a matter of days/weeks before the pin is reluctantly pulled on the entire operation. The market they want to tap is evaporating like mist, and there is no sign of any improvement on the Boeing machinists issue, so A/C delivery is uncertain. Any financing that they may have been counting on is a distant fading hope. They only have so much cash to bleed, and right now the old adage of "cash is king" is a gross understatement.
Uncertain delivery + No market = Cut your losses.
My bet: VA to indefinitely suspend all operations and staff within the month.
Kingswood.
Uncertain delivery + No market = Cut your losses.
My bet: VA to indefinitely suspend all operations and staff within the month.
Kingswood.
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Maui,
"Get your eggs in their appropriate baskets before you run off at the mouth and demonstrate to all, your ignorance of the realities."
Are you serious dude, get out of the house and have a good look around.
Getzo
"Get your eggs in their appropriate baskets before you run off at the mouth and demonstrate to all, your ignorance of the realities."
Are you serious dude, get out of the house and have a good look around.
Getzo
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V AUSTRALIA aka CHALLENGE (remember them)
I would agree I don't think they will start, I recon late DEC early JAN they will cut their losses.
Of all the places they could have picked to fly between, the US and AUS.
Of all the places they could have picked to fly between, the US and AUS.
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If they persist in the current climate, it will probably bring VB down.
Weak aussie dollar= no aussie guests
Weak US economy= no US guests
In retrospect the Boeing machinists may have saved VB!
Weak aussie dollar= no aussie guests
Weak US economy= no US guests
In retrospect the Boeing machinists may have saved VB!
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Oz is one of a wishlist of Asia Pacific destinations that Delta have had it in mine to operate. HKG is another, so watch out Cathay as well.
As Delta goes through with the merger with Northwest, it is possilbe Delta will be on the relationship that VA will have with NW. It might suit Delta just to codeshare with VA on flights to Australia. Works for AA on Qantas.
As Delta goes through with the merger with Northwest, it is possilbe Delta will be on the relationship that VA will have with NW. It might suit Delta just to codeshare with VA on flights to Australia. Works for AA on Qantas.
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KRUSTY... I have applied, looked at it, have all the quals, just not my cup ot tea. Bit of a contrast to yourself, running around trolling for all the goss on pprune, attempting to stir the pot and bagging the company ..Get serious my freind and let people be the judge. I'm sure that most professionals on here have the brains to look at the V deal and decide for themselves.
As I said, I'm happy where I am..but I happened to get the facts about V and made an informed decision. That being to stay put.
You have a nice day now.
As I said, I'm happy where I am..but I happened to get the facts about V and made an informed decision. That being to stay put.
You have a nice day now.
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Kingswood and Allaru,
I think you guys's are on the money. This is just another example of how a V company operates:
1. They shoot from the hip and announce a new product/market (premium econonmy, Kalgoorlie flights, live to air, pilots chance for V Galactic and the list goes on),
2. Then they market the idea without full research with economic risk and evaluation,
3. When they realise that the concept won't work as predicted because of lack of No.2, they blame everyone else and place a stall tactic on the concept, then
4. Either the idea or concept disappears into the abyss or they continue at full steam ahead and allow ego to burn large amounts of cash.
VAUS is definately heading for No.4 on the list! This is how they operate as they are very amateurish and most of the time way out of their league.
Good luck to those that have resigned from their positions to head to V. I hope you all have a plan B.
I think you guys's are on the money. This is just another example of how a V company operates:
1. They shoot from the hip and announce a new product/market (premium econonmy, Kalgoorlie flights, live to air, pilots chance for V Galactic and the list goes on),
2. Then they market the idea without full research with economic risk and evaluation,
3. When they realise that the concept won't work as predicted because of lack of No.2, they blame everyone else and place a stall tactic on the concept, then
4. Either the idea or concept disappears into the abyss or they continue at full steam ahead and allow ego to burn large amounts of cash.
VAUS is definately heading for No.4 on the list! This is how they operate as they are very amateurish and most of the time way out of their league.
Good luck to those that have resigned from their positions to head to V. I hope you all have a plan B.
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Acknowledging the Boeing machinists on strike, isn't the first 777 for VA just sitting there at Everett? What role does a machinist at Boeing play once the aircraft is completed and awaiting delivery? What's stopping VA going over and flying it home?
Could it be that the financing of the aircraft is not finalised and therefore the aircraft stays put? Can't imagine too many finance companies eager to fund an aircraft in the current climate.
It just strikes me as odd as to why a completed aircraft (if the first VA 777 is completed) can not be delivered if only the machinists are on strike and all finance, approvals (excluding an Aust AOC) and paperwork are legit.
Could it be that the financing of the aircraft is not finalised and therefore the aircraft stays put? Can't imagine too many finance companies eager to fund an aircraft in the current climate.
It just strikes me as odd as to why a completed aircraft (if the first VA 777 is completed) can not be delivered if only the machinists are on strike and all finance, approvals (excluding an Aust AOC) and paperwork are legit.