Working for Airservices Australia, the safety based organisation
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Sad to see that nothing appears to have changed Downunder regarding worker/manager relations.
In contrast I attended a job interview a few weeks back and the first thing the very nice HR lady said to me was along the lines "Thank you so much for taking the time to come and see us, I hope myself and the company dont disappoint you" !
I was a little taken a back as I thought that would be the gist of my opening remarks.
First impressions definitely count, and showing that a company appears to value its staff certainly impresses.
Did I take the job ..........would you ?
Frohe Weihnachten und ein glückliches neues Jahr
BD
In contrast I attended a job interview a few weeks back and the first thing the very nice HR lady said to me was along the lines "Thank you so much for taking the time to come and see us, I hope myself and the company dont disappoint you" !
I was a little taken a back as I thought that would be the gist of my opening remarks.
First impressions definitely count, and showing that a company appears to value its staff certainly impresses.
Did I take the job ..........would you ?
Frohe Weihnachten und ein glückliches neues Jahr
BD
Last edited by BurglarsDog; 23rd Dec 2010 at 11:18. Reason: SPELLING
Since I left the employ of ASA, the REPUTATION of the place has improved - SIGNIFICANTLY...!! 
And so has my outlook on life in general...
Happy Everythings you'all..!!
And so has my outlook on life in general...
Happy Everythings you'all..!!
Join Date: Jan 2008
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As someone who left recently, I have to say one of the biggest pluses about leaving is the change of roster. Here in the UAE we work a MMAANNSOOO roster and it is at least a squillion times better than the rubbish roster I worked at home. Plus, once a month (on average) one of the M or A shifts is a standby so for the short time I have been rated, there has not been one phone call asking about overtime, as there are people on standby to fill holes through sickness, emergency leave, etc. Compare that to back home where it was rare to get a day off that wasn't interrupted at some stage...
It's not all beer and skittles here (as a 'mature' supervisor from ML aisle 3 says) but this roster is such a big positive that it more than makes up for it.
It's now time to go and get another beer. I have just finished my second night shift and won't be back at work for another four days so it's time to enjoy life!
It's not all beer and skittles here (as a 'mature' supervisor from ML aisle 3 says) but this roster is such a big positive that it more than makes up for it.
It's now time to go and get another beer. I have just finished my second night shift and won't be back at work for another four days so it's time to enjoy life!
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I'm an ex ASA employee. I was with the company 5 1/2 years and left before I was 30.
I loved the job, hated the company. I won't have an all out bitch, but when I tell people stories about my time there and they stare at me with shock and disbelief.
What still shocks me is that you have a group of highly intelligent people who allow themselves to be treated like crap and undermined, there best trick being that they convince the workers that they are unskilled, and will not be able to do anything outside the roles that they occupy.
When I quit, I was asked often how? I had no job to go to when I quit and no plans, but I quite cause being unemployed was better that staying and continuing to be told I was worthless.
I hope for everyone's sake that things improve in the company, as I left a lot of friends and it upsets me when they come to me and bitch about being treated to a level that is sub-standard in todays environment. But I'm not holding my breath.
I loved the job, hated the company. I won't have an all out bitch, but when I tell people stories about my time there and they stare at me with shock and disbelief.
What still shocks me is that you have a group of highly intelligent people who allow themselves to be treated like crap and undermined, there best trick being that they convince the workers that they are unskilled, and will not be able to do anything outside the roles that they occupy.
When I quit, I was asked often how? I had no job to go to when I quit and no plans, but I quite cause being unemployed was better that staying and continuing to be told I was worthless.
I hope for everyone's sake that things improve in the company, as I left a lot of friends and it upsets me when they come to me and bitch about being treated to a level that is sub-standard in todays environment. But I'm not holding my breath.
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General disaray left after only 5 1/2 years (leaving before 5 years incurs a bond payment). That is a waste of his or hers talent, training cost, opportunity cost to the organisation, as well as to their own career.
There is little point in recruiting and training rapidly to cover the demographic destiny that is happening now, if there is no effort to change the culture that makes essential professionals want to leave.
There is little point in recruiting and training rapidly to cover the demographic destiny that is happening now, if there is no effort to change the culture that makes essential professionals want to leave.
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The majority of the world's ATCs are enroute controllers. It is, generally-speaking, the most in demand ATC role. However, because it's also the one in which the most number of candidates exist to fill vacancies, it does mean you're unlikely to see adverts in Australia to fill enroute vacancies in Europe unless you go looking. (Just as most of the world's teenagers work for a red-headed clown in a yellow suit - I've never seen him advertise, nor ever be short of staff, and yet I'm confident if I asked him for a job I'd have one tomorrow if I were flexible on location.)
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Woodwork - to be more specific:
The majority of new controllers are being funnelled into what is considered procedural enroute (regardless of complete ADSb coverage) - airspace 100's of miles across and long. There is a mistaken perception amongst some overseas ANSP's that because the airspace is so big, there is lots of room for the planes (conveniently ignoring route design) and so people with these ratings could'nt possibly cope with the same number of planes in what are typically smaller pieces of airspace (especially in Europe).
The majority of new controllers are being funnelled into what is considered procedural enroute (regardless of complete ADSb coverage) - airspace 100's of miles across and long. There is a mistaken perception amongst some overseas ANSP's that because the airspace is so big, there is lots of room for the planes (conveniently ignoring route design) and so people with these ratings could'nt possibly cope with the same number of planes in what are typically smaller pieces of airspace (especially in Europe).
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There is a massive difference between procedural enroute and busy radar - if you can't see that then get out and have a look around. That doesn't mean that a procedural enroute controller can't transition to a busy radar environment. A number of TOPS guys have done just that in recent years in international environments. It just takes a bit of work - but then again it takes a bit of work for anyone to retrain on new airspace.
I don't think the new guys will be at a disadvantage when it comes their turn to jump ship in 5 years.
I don't think the new guys will be at a disadvantage when it comes their turn to jump ship in 5 years.
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To say Ms Fletcher's comments are repugnant is an understatement. As a male controller at Melbourne Centre I take offence. The other controller in this action stated from the outset that she had no problem with the male controllers she worked alongside IT WAS A SMALL GROUP OF MALE MANAGERS that was the problem.
One manager in particular who everybody in the room knew was a loose canon. A bloke who would not pass an aptitude test in any organisation for a management position. The bloke got a management position because most others rejected ASA's political agenda in trying to force applicants onto individual contracts.
Ms Fletcher, your blanket statement that Melbourne Centre is a boys club is complete bullish!t. Women are well represented in the management ranks, are being actively recruited for ATC and are treated just like the rest of us.
The manager concerned was an arseclown of the highest order and no, no-one has been held to account for his actions but you do yourself no favours by tarring us all with the same brush
One manager in particular who everybody in the room knew was a loose canon. A bloke who would not pass an aptitude test in any organisation for a management position. The bloke got a management position because most others rejected ASA's political agenda in trying to force applicants onto individual contracts.
Ms Fletcher, your blanket statement that Melbourne Centre is a boys club is complete bullish!t. Women are well represented in the management ranks, are being actively recruited for ATC and are treated just like the rest of us.
The manager concerned was an arseclown of the highest order and no, no-one has been held to account for his actions but you do yourself no favours by tarring us all with the same brush
It is well known that in brissy a female controller was denied moving and retraining on another sector (which included a pay rise for the effort) because there were too many women on the sector already and they didn't want her to get knocked up and cause a problems.
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Jack,
I would have thought that you would have seen the journalistic
licenc(s?)e taken here.
Have a reread of Kirstys' actual quotes, not the inference the author makes. I think Kirsty is quite specific about where the issues are. Nowhere does she tar actual controllers with the boys club brush. The journalist does this. The way I read Kirsty is that she wants the standover tactics to stop.
Apology to Kirsty maybe?
I would have thought that you would have seen the journalistic
licenc(s?)e taken here.
Have a reread of Kirstys' actual quotes, not the inference the author makes. I think Kirsty is quite specific about where the issues are. Nowhere does she tar actual controllers with the boys club brush. The journalist does this. The way I read Kirsty is that she wants the standover tactics to stop.
Apology to Kirsty maybe?
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Max,
I would have thought that you could see that there's more to this than meets the eye..............
Having terminated the 'managers' employment and reached a settlement with Jackie, Ms Fletcher wants to go on with this?
Do you really think that ASA would be that stupid (I know that as an organisation they are pretty dense sometimes) to terminate someone in such a high profile case unless they had pretty good grounds?
There is no 'boys club' at Melbourne. There is no porn being viewed by anybody at Melbourne. The one 'manager' that caused the problem is gone. There is one implicated that appears to be coated in teflon that has probably got a few questions to answer? But there is far from an on-going boys club 'culure'
There wont be an apology from me.
I have a great amount of respect for Jackie and it's a pity she's no longer around.
I would have thought that you could see that there's more to this than meets the eye..............
Having terminated the 'managers' employment and reached a settlement with Jackie, Ms Fletcher wants to go on with this?
Do you really think that ASA would be that stupid (I know that as an organisation they are pretty dense sometimes) to terminate someone in such a high profile case unless they had pretty good grounds?
There is no 'boys club' at Melbourne. There is no porn being viewed by anybody at Melbourne. The one 'manager' that caused the problem is gone. There is one implicated that appears to be coated in teflon that has probably got a few questions to answer? But there is far from an on-going boys club 'culure'
There wont be an apology from me.
I have a great amount of respect for Jackie and it's a pity she's no longer around.
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As someone on the outside looking back in, I've a few comments.
There was indeed 'soft porn' being viewed quite openly in 2008. From lads mags to other electronic versions of it, occasionally not so soft, but certainly not much worse than your average UK tabloid page 3 section. I'm sure that if you looked hard enough, there would still be lads mags about; your individual sensibilities may say this is fine, mine do, but perhaps in the cold light of day it's not.
I think the management crew is a boys club, this doesn't mean you need to actually be a boy to get invited. "You're either with us or against us" certainly exists.
As for the reasons X or Y did what regarding legal grounds etc, is neither here nor there. Everyone gets legal advice, it's either followed fully partly or ignored, doesn't mean you have no grounds for ignoring said advice. Another lawyer may offer contrary advice. The good and bad thing about the law is, it changes as do interpretations of it. The grounds required to terminate someones employment are often a by product of the action taken.
I was privy to information in a case in the mid 90's and can say that more money was spent 'defending' the actions than was necessary to avoid the precedent it might set. That was settled confidentially too for a smaller sum than originally requested. However, the money spent on the defending action and subsequent payout was far more (multiples more) than originally asked for, it was about 'saving face' and not 'admitting liability'. I still believe that there was absolutely no case then it was a financial decision to settle by ASA; but they should have done so much earlier.
Nobody knows the reasons why one party settled confidentially (except that party and their confidants), but I would guess that it was expedient for her to do so rather than be fully satisfied with the outcome. Perhaps the other party to the original action has other priorities or grievances that needed attention. Perhaps it wasn't totally a financial decision and the confidentiality aspect was the bug-bear, we shouldn't speculate about it as it's still ongoing.
The fact that an individual manager has had his employment terminated may be irrelevant (certainly not for him). My understanding is he was the 'centre half forward' or the 'go to guy' perhaps there are other people in the management tree that are actually responsible for a good deal of the grief, they may or may not be 'boys' but they are certainly in the management boys club. So was he the cause or the messenger who now has got the sharp end himself?
Generally the managers I experienced in my time at ASA were good people, but they nearly always (to a man or woman) swallowed the mantra of the common good or sharing the management decision even if they disagreed with it, it was rare to get managed as an individual unless you were in the sh!t, but it certainly wasn't rare to get individual treatment from a range of managers if you weren't on their side (what ever that is).
Stockholm syndrome is alive and well inside ASA; it has been so good getting out, for me going back to Australia unemployed, is a far more palatable option than bowing my head and begging for a job back.
Good luck Kirsty I hope you get exactly what you are looking for.
There was indeed 'soft porn' being viewed quite openly in 2008. From lads mags to other electronic versions of it, occasionally not so soft, but certainly not much worse than your average UK tabloid page 3 section. I'm sure that if you looked hard enough, there would still be lads mags about; your individual sensibilities may say this is fine, mine do, but perhaps in the cold light of day it's not.
I think the management crew is a boys club, this doesn't mean you need to actually be a boy to get invited. "You're either with us or against us" certainly exists.
As for the reasons X or Y did what regarding legal grounds etc, is neither here nor there. Everyone gets legal advice, it's either followed fully partly or ignored, doesn't mean you have no grounds for ignoring said advice. Another lawyer may offer contrary advice. The good and bad thing about the law is, it changes as do interpretations of it. The grounds required to terminate someones employment are often a by product of the action taken.
I was privy to information in a case in the mid 90's and can say that more money was spent 'defending' the actions than was necessary to avoid the precedent it might set. That was settled confidentially too for a smaller sum than originally requested. However, the money spent on the defending action and subsequent payout was far more (multiples more) than originally asked for, it was about 'saving face' and not 'admitting liability'. I still believe that there was absolutely no case then it was a financial decision to settle by ASA; but they should have done so much earlier.
Nobody knows the reasons why one party settled confidentially (except that party and their confidants), but I would guess that it was expedient for her to do so rather than be fully satisfied with the outcome. Perhaps the other party to the original action has other priorities or grievances that needed attention. Perhaps it wasn't totally a financial decision and the confidentiality aspect was the bug-bear, we shouldn't speculate about it as it's still ongoing.
The fact that an individual manager has had his employment terminated may be irrelevant (certainly not for him). My understanding is he was the 'centre half forward' or the 'go to guy' perhaps there are other people in the management tree that are actually responsible for a good deal of the grief, they may or may not be 'boys' but they are certainly in the management boys club. So was he the cause or the messenger who now has got the sharp end himself?
Generally the managers I experienced in my time at ASA were good people, but they nearly always (to a man or woman) swallowed the mantra of the common good or sharing the management decision even if they disagreed with it, it was rare to get managed as an individual unless you were in the sh!t, but it certainly wasn't rare to get individual treatment from a range of managers if you weren't on their side (what ever that is).
Stockholm syndrome is alive and well inside ASA; it has been so good getting out, for me going back to Australia unemployed, is a far more palatable option than bowing my head and begging for a job back.
Good luck Kirsty I hope you get exactly what you are looking for.
Last edited by Blockla; 24th Aug 2011 at 16:26.
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Good post Block articulate & mostly accurate.
I think our definitions of 'boys club' probably differ somewhat.
Your observations of management are still accurate but I'd define 'boys club' as decisions made looking after one gender which doesn't really happen out here. The decisions made are equally bad whether you are male or female.
I object to an article in mainstream media that intimates that we all behave the same way, that is, the rank & file ATC is a sexist, misogynist pig. I certainly don't bring my children up with those attitudes or values.
Perhaps Ms Fletcher could have chosen her media a little better? If you know your words are going to be 'massaged' to sensationalise a story and to hell with the collateral damage, is it worth it?
articulate & mostly accurate.I think our definitions of 'boys club' probably differ somewhat.
Your observations of management are still accurate but I'd define 'boys club' as decisions made looking after one gender which doesn't really happen out here. The decisions made are equally bad whether you are male or female.
I object to an article in mainstream media that intimates that we all behave the same way, that is, the rank & file ATC is a sexist, misogynist pig. I certainly don't bring my children up with those attitudes or values.
Perhaps Ms Fletcher could have chosen her media a little better? If you know your words are going to be 'massaged' to sensationalise a story and to hell with the collateral damage, is it worth it?
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Incubator Comment
Are managers referring to female controllers as incubators an acceptable comment?
Is referring to women as having the potential to "get knocked up" appropriate?
NO, it is offensive and derogatory and completely devalues the good work that many female controllers do.
It also supports the boys club theory that has long been around in many different AsA work locations, that's not saying it's always a bad thing but when actions are made to prevent career development on the basis of sex or potential to have a baby, or that a group predomently made up of women is referred to as an incubator is disgusting.
Some times when you have been in the job or at a specific location too long you can get so involved in the "culture" that it's hard to find the line in the sand because you've jumped so far over it.
Equally there are times when we can all be a bit too precious and that needs to be recognized as well.
Is referring to women as having the potential to "get knocked up" appropriate?
NO, it is offensive and derogatory and completely devalues the good work that many female controllers do.
It also supports the boys club theory that has long been around in many different AsA work locations, that's not saying it's always a bad thing but when actions are made to prevent career development on the basis of sex or potential to have a baby, or that a group predomently made up of women is referred to as an incubator is disgusting.
Some times when you have been in the job or at a specific location too long you can get so involved in the "culture" that it's hard to find the line in the sand because you've jumped so far over it.
Equally there are times when we can all be a bit too precious and that needs to be recognized as well.
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Are managers referring to female controllers as incubators an acceptable comment?
Is referring to women as having the potential to "get knocked up" appropriate?
NO, it is offensive and derogatory and completely devalues the good work that many female controllers do.
but when actions are made to prevent career development on the basis of sex or potential to have a baby
or that a group predomently made up of women is referred to as an incubator is disgusting.
Any ANSP that 'loads' a group with female controllers of a certain age would have to be morons. It is a fact of life that only the female of our species can bear children. The lead time to train a controller to replace a controller going on maternity leave is un-doable in these situations.
If you are going to actively target an increase in a particular gender to a workplace you are going to have to take into account the life circumstances of this gender. i.e. there is a strong likelihood that females between the age of 20 to 35 may want to start a family. There is also a strong likelihood that the female who has just had a baby will want to come back to the workplace part time. The ANSP WILL HAVE TO TAKE THIS INTO ACCOUNT WHEN CALCULATING THE CONTROLLER NUMBERS REQUIRED. ASA DOES NOT DO THIS.
Equally there are times when we can all be a bit too precious and that needs to be recognized as well.
Agreed!!
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Hey Jack R
Sadly i have no clue about the using the quote thingy. However .....
My comment relating to babies was in response to one by Mikk regarding someone he/she was aware of, not in relation to the article.
I completely agree with you in relation to loading groups up, or actively recruiting females and then acting all hurt and surprised when they start a family and need to work part time!
Sadly i have no clue about the using the quote thingy. However .....
My comment relating to babies was in response to one by Mikk regarding someone he/she was aware of, not in relation to the article.
I completely agree with you in relation to loading groups up, or actively recruiting females and then acting all hurt and surprised when they start a family and need to work part time!