Merged: PNG CAA Air Safety: ABC Foreign Correspondent
Centaurus you naive git.
It could just be that the pilot was indeed a no fault victim of circumstances beyond his control.
If you want to become a little more worldly and a little less ignorant have a look at HFACS(human factors analysis and classification system) and you will understand that most incidents/accidents are more than they first appear.
If you watched the program(and paid attention) you would have picked up answers to your inane questions.
If you have trouble with hfacs basically it is an extension of James Reason's Swiss cheese model(1990).
If you don't know the answer do some learning!
It could just be that the pilot was indeed a no fault victim of circumstances beyond his control.
If you want to become a little more worldly and a little less ignorant have a look at HFACS(human factors analysis and classification system) and you will understand that most incidents/accidents are more than they first appear.
If you watched the program(and paid attention) you would have picked up answers to your inane questions.
If you have trouble with hfacs basically it is an extension of James Reason's Swiss cheese model(1990).
If you don't know the answer do some learning!
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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What a clusterk. $10,000 Ransom to investigate a crash? Must be a version of payback
Apparently though, it was retrieved by a bunch of PNG Constabulary who went to the village and said the local equivalent of
''Just hand over the engine boys, and no-one will get hurt!''
Should be more of that sort of thing.......but given the quality of the Constabulary these days..
Grandpa Aerotart
Greenslopes I know for a fact that Centaurus has been there and done that more than most and I detected nothing in his post that earned your response.
Yes it is possible that the crash was as you suggest, just extremely unlikely.
Whatever the cause of that accident I would suggest out brave accident investigator was on an aeroplane home straight after the airing of the program.
Doesn't matter that he is 100% correct, and he most assuredly is, he will be terminated by now and most unlikely to ever set foot in PNG again, certainly not with a work permit.
That is just the way it is.
It won't matter a stuff what the audit comes up with PX will not be shut down and domestically nothing will change post audit.
That, too, is just the way it is.
Pinky I bet they banged a few heads together, set fire to a couple of huts, and THEN said "ol samting bilong balus i stap we"?
Yes it is possible that the crash was as you suggest, just extremely unlikely.
Whatever the cause of that accident I would suggest out brave accident investigator was on an aeroplane home straight after the airing of the program.
Doesn't matter that he is 100% correct, and he most assuredly is, he will be terminated by now and most unlikely to ever set foot in PNG again, certainly not with a work permit.
That is just the way it is.
It won't matter a stuff what the audit comes up with PX will not be shut down and domestically nothing will change post audit.
That, too, is just the way it is.
Pinky I bet they banged a few heads together, set fire to a couple of huts, and THEN said "ol samting bilong balus i stap we"?
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I bet they banged a few heads together, set fire to a couple of huts, and THEN said "ol samting bilong balus i stap we"?
Chimbu,
My response wasn't trying to discredit Cent just point out that very rarely is an acident solely the cause of the Pilot. Look at hfacs and what it encompasses and you will see the latent and active failures leading to an accident. What oversight was providedby management, what doctrines and policies filtered down from the Owner of Airlink to the line pilots, what training and checking occured, was there a fatigue management program in place, how was maintenance etc etc etc(I think we know the answer to many of these Q's).
Yes CC I am a Wantok I flew in png for only four years and was based in Mendi, I shared a beer with you and Drew in Kavieng so I do know the environment and am not speaking out my rrrrsss.
My response wasn't trying to discredit Cent just point out that very rarely is an acident solely the cause of the Pilot. Look at hfacs and what it encompasses and you will see the latent and active failures leading to an accident. What oversight was providedby management, what doctrines and policies filtered down from the Owner of Airlink to the line pilots, what training and checking occured, was there a fatigue management program in place, how was maintenance etc etc etc(I think we know the answer to many of these Q's).
Yes CC I am a Wantok I flew in png for only four years and was based in Mendi, I shared a beer with you and Drew in Kavieng so I do know the environment and am not speaking out my rrrrsss.
Online replay.
Is there an online version of the doco? Cheers.
All the prior episodes have a video replay. You can find them here...
Archive - Foreign Correspondent
Flexible Response,
You have hit the nail on the head. I hear CASA are looking very closely at all this. CASA has considered a ban on all PNG registered aircraft in the Australian Airspace in the past.
In regard to Patrick's accident at Kandrian,no one will never know the real cause of the accident now,but from what I know it was a suspected engine failure at night/dawn,and I'm pritty sure they would have been overloaded with papers,although I maybe wrong. As anyone who has operated in PNG especially in GA would know,overloads were once the norm especially with ops managers like Birrel and the like,overloading has been going on for years and I'm sure it still does with some operators,especially when there is little or no policing done by the PNG CAA.
I believe the real worry is that if the Bandierante did infact have an engine failure or even some kind of airframe failure,no one will ever know the cause. This worries people like Sid,Bandierante operators and other regulators around the world,as the aircraft concerned may have had a problem/fault that has never occured in the past. For Sid O'Toole's department not to have any funding available to investigate accidents and incidents is a total disgrace, and for Don Polye to admit it on international television,just goes to show what condition some of the Government Departments are in.
I'm sure Sid's job is on the line now,although I like to think that if he was fired there will be some form of payback on PNG from ICAO and CASA. Who else in their right mind would take on a position and then have there hands tied. I somehow really doubt there would be a PNG National who could take on the roll,and be able to stick his/her neck out,although I stand to be corrected as I may be wrong.
You have hit the nail on the head. I hear CASA are looking very closely at all this. CASA has considered a ban on all PNG registered aircraft in the Australian Airspace in the past.
In regard to Patrick's accident at Kandrian,no one will never know the real cause of the accident now,but from what I know it was a suspected engine failure at night/dawn,and I'm pritty sure they would have been overloaded with papers,although I maybe wrong. As anyone who has operated in PNG especially in GA would know,overloads were once the norm especially with ops managers like Birrel and the like,overloading has been going on for years and I'm sure it still does with some operators,especially when there is little or no policing done by the PNG CAA.
I believe the real worry is that if the Bandierante did infact have an engine failure or even some kind of airframe failure,no one will ever know the cause. This worries people like Sid,Bandierante operators and other regulators around the world,as the aircraft concerned may have had a problem/fault that has never occured in the past. For Sid O'Toole's department not to have any funding available to investigate accidents and incidents is a total disgrace, and for Don Polye to admit it on international television,just goes to show what condition some of the Government Departments are in.
I'm sure Sid's job is on the line now,although I like to think that if he was fired there will be some form of payback on PNG from ICAO and CASA. Who else in their right mind would take on a position and then have there hands tied. I somehow really doubt there would be a PNG National who could take on the roll,and be able to stick his/her neck out,although I stand to be corrected as I may be wrong.
Grandpa Aerotart
I am not saying your not correct in mentioning potential human factors aspects of the crash I merely suggested calling him 'a naive git' might be a long bow to draw
Too I think that 'human factors' gets overplayed. It almost seems like a way of deflecting responsibility sometimes.
Centaurus is completely right when he suggests (grieving) parents are rarely emotionally equipped to accept the fact that their pride and joy might not have been the sharpest tool in the shed preferring to hold on to the belief he was the innocent victim of a series of other people's errors, or of circumstances beyond his control.
Given the state of things in PNG we will never know what happened at Kandrian but if it was a case of the crew being (relatively) innocent victims of circumstances beyond their control it is the only Bandit crash in PNG aviation history that falls into that category.
Too I think that 'human factors' gets overplayed. It almost seems like a way of deflecting responsibility sometimes.
Centaurus is completely right when he suggests (grieving) parents are rarely emotionally equipped to accept the fact that their pride and joy might not have been the sharpest tool in the shed preferring to hold on to the belief he was the innocent victim of a series of other people's errors, or of circumstances beyond his control.
Given the state of things in PNG we will never know what happened at Kandrian but if it was a case of the crew being (relatively) innocent victims of circumstances beyond their control it is the only Bandit crash in PNG aviation history that falls into that category.
Chuck.
Was there ever a definitive cause found for the Bandit lost off Hoskins, not far away from Kandrian, maybe 20 plus years ago? I had a feeling the water was too deep and a complete investigation was not possible?
I know there was never a cause found for the loss of the Baron off Milne Bay in the '70's, flown John Fox.
If Sid got his marching orders, PNG will be that much poorer! He was a good man and a good engineer.
Was there ever a definitive cause found for the Bandit lost off Hoskins, not far away from Kandrian, maybe 20 plus years ago? I had a feeling the water was too deep and a complete investigation was not possible?
I know there was never a cause found for the loss of the Baron off Milne Bay in the '70's, flown John Fox.
If Sid got his marching orders, PNG will be that much poorer! He was a good man and a good engineer.
Yes human factors is a lot more encompasasing than most people realise.
HFACS used as an investigative tool is a very comprehensive method of analysis. Basically the main groups are: Organizational Influence, Unsafe Supervision,Preconditions of unsafe acts and unsafe acts of operators.
Traditionaly us pilots have focused on the unsafe acts of operators and this too is where most investigators placed their emphasis as all they really wanted was to find the pilot at fault( poor ole pilot was usually dead and unable to say otherwise) as they could close the case and move on.
Most modern(and certainly those conducted by ATSB) do not determine where the blame lies, they are more focused on revealling the breaks in the defensive mechanism's so that operators can put preventative measures in place and halt a reoccurance.
Cutting to the chase the pilot is just the last hole in the cheese not the only hole in the cheese!
And yes I shouldn't have called anyone a naive Git..........please accept my apologies.
HFACS used as an investigative tool is a very comprehensive method of analysis. Basically the main groups are: Organizational Influence, Unsafe Supervision,Preconditions of unsafe acts and unsafe acts of operators.
Traditionaly us pilots have focused on the unsafe acts of operators and this too is where most investigators placed their emphasis as all they really wanted was to find the pilot at fault( poor ole pilot was usually dead and unable to say otherwise) as they could close the case and move on.
Most modern(and certainly those conducted by ATSB) do not determine where the blame lies, they are more focused on revealling the breaks in the defensive mechanism's so that operators can put preventative measures in place and halt a reoccurance.
Cutting to the chase the pilot is just the last hole in the cheese not the only hole in the cheese!
And yes I shouldn't have called anyone a naive Git..........please accept my apologies.
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Grandpa Aerotart
Torres correct me if my memory is failing but were there not a few survivors from the Hoskins bandit that painted a picture, essentially, of zero horizon/heavy rain and 'controlled flight into the water'? Certainly the word around the crewroom was along those lines.
Yes the water there is many thousands of feet deep so there was never going to be a recovery of the aircraft and a detailed investigation.
I logged a few 1000 hours in Bandits in PNG including in the actual aircraft in question in the ABC report and worked for Airlink in Rabaul post Talair. I am very familiar with the area around Kandrian. Yes we used to fly the Bandits 'heavy' sometimes but they were certified to a higher MTOW in other countries anyway so I doubt we flew them beyond their design limits all that often. I know Col Bubner well and I have a difficult time believing his attitude to maintenance/training etc in Airlink was that much different at the time of this accident to that which prevailed when I was working for him. I would go as far as to say you couldn't ask for better as a pilot.
The Bandit is a powerful aircraft and even if they departed NZ/MD or where ever a few 100kgs over by the time they arrived in the vicinity of Kandrian they would no longer be over MTOW and it would take more than an engine failure to bring the aircraft down.
If they had a fire, either in the engine or cabin, they couldn't put out you would think it would be obvious even in a cursory inspection of the wreckage or they would have mentioned it over the radio...there was apparently a mayday call?
When you ponder the things that might cause an aircraft like a Bandit to crash after being in flight for an extended period of time the list of likely causes is not a long one. A single engine failure, unless grossly mismanaged, is just not going to do it.
Sadly it has been many, MANY decades since anyone has discovered a completely new and innovative way to crash an aeroplane.
Yes the water there is many thousands of feet deep so there was never going to be a recovery of the aircraft and a detailed investigation.
I logged a few 1000 hours in Bandits in PNG including in the actual aircraft in question in the ABC report and worked for Airlink in Rabaul post Talair. I am very familiar with the area around Kandrian. Yes we used to fly the Bandits 'heavy' sometimes but they were certified to a higher MTOW in other countries anyway so I doubt we flew them beyond their design limits all that often. I know Col Bubner well and I have a difficult time believing his attitude to maintenance/training etc in Airlink was that much different at the time of this accident to that which prevailed when I was working for him. I would go as far as to say you couldn't ask for better as a pilot.
The Bandit is a powerful aircraft and even if they departed NZ/MD or where ever a few 100kgs over by the time they arrived in the vicinity of Kandrian they would no longer be over MTOW and it would take more than an engine failure to bring the aircraft down.
If they had a fire, either in the engine or cabin, they couldn't put out you would think it would be obvious even in a cursory inspection of the wreckage or they would have mentioned it over the radio...there was apparently a mayday call?
When you ponder the things that might cause an aircraft like a Bandit to crash after being in flight for an extended period of time the list of likely causes is not a long one. A single engine failure, unless grossly mismanaged, is just not going to do it.
Sadly it has been many, MANY decades since anyone has discovered a completely new and innovative way to crash an aeroplane.
Chuck. Too long ago to remember but I thought the Bandit disappeared off Hoskins without trace and all lost. I vaguely recall it was really crap WX and the Bandit was holding for an F28 to land, which itself overran the strip. I think the final assumption was the aircraft descended into the sea in an attempt to get visual.
Someone mentioned aircraft overloading by operations controllers. As you know two in particular were notorious, one of which went to Col's organisation....
The Bandit is a great aircraft and would have been much improved with -42 engines, however I understand the -42 was not designated a "commercial" engine by the manufacturer. The Bandit with higher gross weight was a military maritime patrol variant which had wing tip tanks.
Someone mentioned aircraft overloading by operations controllers. As you know two in particular were notorious, one of which went to Col's organisation....
The Bandit is a great aircraft and would have been much improved with -42 engines, however I understand the -42 was not designated a "commercial" engine by the manufacturer. The Bandit with higher gross weight was a military maritime patrol variant which had wing tip tanks.
I think you will find that the increased/higher gross weight came under SFAR 41A and applied to civilian models/operations.
"In addition, for those aircraft which have been approved for operation at increased weights permitted by
SFAR 41A, a placard must be installed in the cockpit, in clear view of the pilot, which reads as follows:
"THIS AIRPLANE IS APPROVED IN ACCORDANCE WITH SFAR 41A FOR MAXIMUM
TAKEOFF WEIGHT OF 13,007 LBS. AND MAXIMUM LANDING WEIGHT OF 12,566 LBS."
"In addition, for those aircraft which have been approved for operation at increased weights permitted by
SFAR 41A, a placard must be installed in the cockpit, in clear view of the pilot, which reads as follows:
"THIS AIRPLANE IS APPROVED IN ACCORDANCE WITH SFAR 41A FOR MAXIMUM
TAKEOFF WEIGHT OF 13,007 LBS. AND MAXIMUM LANDING WEIGHT OF 12,566 LBS."
Troppo is correct, I'd forgotten the SFAR41 aircraft. The military variant I was thinking of was closer to 14,000 pounds TO weight for maritime patrol.
The SFAR41 variant added 500 pounds to the max TO weight but I seem to recall it involved expensive mods to higher certification standards (engine cowlings and other mods???), mandated two crew and as a result the extra payload was negated by extra weight and cost?
The Bandits (along with the Twin Otters) certainly "made" Talair.
The SFAR41 variant added 500 pounds to the max TO weight but I seem to recall it involved expensive mods to higher certification standards (engine cowlings and other mods???), mandated two crew and as a result the extra payload was negated by extra weight and cost?
The Bandits (along with the Twin Otters) certainly "made" Talair.
Catching a lift in a bandit in PNG I commented to the PIC that we feel 'pretty heavy'. 'Yeah it's ok they're certified by the FAA to carry a bit more so we should be right.' 
Steep learning curve there...
Steep learning curve there...
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The higher MTOW Bandit has modified MLG shock absorbers, in addition to other various mods.
When did this crash (the one in the doco) occur? I missed that bit.
When did this crash (the one in the doco) occur? I missed that bit.
Last edited by nick2007; 22nd Aug 2008 at 03:03. Reason: Add: When did this crash occur?
From the doco synopsis : "The announcement comes just weeks before the International Civil Aviation Organisation, or ICAO, arrives in PNG to conduct an audit of air safety. ICAO requires that air crashes be investigated and has been known to take strong disciplinary action against countries that don’t meet its standards".
If ICAO do a proper job, it won't only be the lack of accident investigation that will fail PNG CAA. The auditors should find plenty of other areas of incompetence and insufficient, unqualified manpower within the regulatory authority. An on-going problem is that CAA simply can not attract aviation professionals with any depth of knowledge. They don't pay nearly enough, and don't allow tour arrangements, so they have a very limited choice when they attempt to recruit. They have done NOTHING to address problems that have been found on previous audits.
PNG CAA is about on par with Sierra Leone. The only thing that keeps aviation going up there is a small core group of very capable pilots and engineers, for which travellers in that area should be grateful. PNG's safety record is actually far better than it deserves to be.
If ICAO do a proper job, it won't only be the lack of accident investigation that will fail PNG CAA. The auditors should find plenty of other areas of incompetence and insufficient, unqualified manpower within the regulatory authority. An on-going problem is that CAA simply can not attract aviation professionals with any depth of knowledge. They don't pay nearly enough, and don't allow tour arrangements, so they have a very limited choice when they attempt to recruit. They have done NOTHING to address problems that have been found on previous audits.
PNG CAA is about on par with Sierra Leone. The only thing that keeps aviation going up there is a small core group of very capable pilots and engineers, for which travellers in that area should be grateful. PNG's safety record is actually far better than it deserves to be.