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The Nuremberg defence and taking the Queen’s shilling
It is not the first time and probably not the last that we see the Nuremberg defence being trotted out by managers and subordinates that they were only “following orders” from the CEO/MD. But did they all not accept the Queen’s shilling?
Thanks OTG, Tutaewera, and BP et al for your inside info. I gather that I maybe indeed preaching to the converted on this form, but here is my further 2 bob’s worth.
As nominated persons (accountable and responsible), the CEO/MD and other senior managers particularly have an easy and direct line of comms to Airline Ops and Airworthiness at CASA and vice versa. Many other avenues exist to increase the focus and awareness on the cowboys and girls at managerial or at any level, or on the gaps and weaknesses in the systems and processes. Granted, you may not always have the easier option to resign due to family, financial and limited career choices. But it could be the safer option. Short of the preferable earlier severe regulatory intervention, or a too late accident or serious incident, perhaps the CEO/MD etc. will only take notice when managerial turnover and the driver turnover and fluctuation level impacts production and actually grounds flights, increases training costs, or reduces the collective expertise, corporate knowledge, experience and proficiency to an unacceptable level The damage to the brand and the patience of the investors and shareholders will be sorely tested from the suspension/grounding and the resulting free flights give-away to get bums back on the seats.
LEADERSHIP EXAMPLE & ANARCHY
The CEO, the local plethora of MDs and other nominated persons over time and until more recently thought that it was a risk worth taking. Hey, **** happens, TGW took a wrong punt, made a bad call, call it what you like. They decided that compliance and safety was too difficult and/or too expensive and did not fit the TGW business model. There was a simple choice: to comply or not to. When the regulator says “jump”, and your response is not immediately “how far”, and you instead go down the anarchical path thumbing your nose at CASA, then it maybe stating the frigging obvious to watch out and be bloody careful. As a nascent and relatively embryonic entrant, it is no surprise that TGW is without an ingrained and established compliance and safety culture permeating all levels. If such anarchy is exhibited at the top, if senior management actively and openly demonstrate such contempt for the regulator and compliance, then what example does this show to the troops at the bottom of the food chain? “My CEO and management team deliberately do not comply with CASA safety and compliance requirements, so why should I follow company SOPs?” The “don’t do as I do, but do as I say” model of airline management and leadership who are unable or unwilling to “walk the talk”. I am reminded occasionally, and fortunately not too frequently, in the sim and on the line (with the QAR operating) of a few guys who have slipped through the net, unsuited and not fit for purpose in a safety critical industry. Nice chaps, but who would let them anywhere near an aircraft or an airline HQ, who use the same “a little bit pregnant” argument or excuse: “she’ll be right mate”, “oh, its ok” or “don’t worry, I’ve done it before”, who argue with the “checky” or examiner, when the minima is busted, the flying is outside of tolerance, sunny side is not up, it wasn’t kept in the green, the SOPs contravened etc. This is all notwithstanding the avowed high experience levels at TGW: ex-Ansett, ex-overseas experience, high GA time etc.
The suspension late last week after the earlier show-cause notice and the CEO’s subsequent public state of denial confirms that the option to not comply was, for whatever reason, considered more prudent. Was TGW’s situation so dire, such a great emergency, requiring and allowing TGW to deviate from “SOPs to continue flying? Well, no! TGW could have stopped ops themselves until compliance and safety issues were rectified and CASA were satisfied. TGW chose not to, or were incapable of doing so, … and CASA thankfully made the decision for them. Being cruel to be kind … CASA giving TGW some breathing space and a chance to demonstrate their new found safety and compliance bona fides seems like a very good idea and course of action. Harsh, yes, but TGW have a wonderful opportunity to now show us how it can be done. The TGW risk assessment previously said that CASA would not dare act to suspend, or perhaps worst case that TGW can trade their way to break even or profitability if such a suspension/grounding was enforced. If not suicidal, and the business does indeed recover and goes onto flourish and prosper, then you really do have to admire the panache, verve and ultimate brinkmanship!
Do safety and compliance cost money, or do they save money?
Does your airline or parent at Board level have any independent non-exec. directors, does it have a safety committee? Sometimes you can find a director actually interested in regulatory compliance, risk and safety management, and in exercising his/her fiduciary and other duties in maintaining shareholder value and the brand, being proactive in avoiding the impact on the business of a grounding, and the small mess of a hull loss (or two if you can convince the paying punters to fly again with you) and associated splattered and fried cadavers, and any possible subsequent business closure or collapse?
If you are at your wits end and have exhausted all avenues intra-company, then by all means go external. As a so-called profession, do our pilot responsibilities extend beyond the cockpit, the aluminium/composite fibre tube and the weekly pay cheque? OK, not all airlines have the luxury of screening for, recruiting and employing “astronauts”, not all are IOSA, or have a LOSA program, and some airlines are still really struggling with implementation of QA, SMS, FRMS, FDM, Just culture, reporting culture, learning lessons culture etc. etc. Confidential aviation reporting systems are not there for window dressing. Flight, sim, base and hangar etc. visits, checks and audits provide ample opportunity for those staff with genuine concerns to share these with the regulator. Even as a lowly driver, from experience, I would be surprised if you have ever been refused a meeting with an aviation authority or accident investigation bureau if you so request. You may also have access to a tech. rep./committee at your pilot association. If your management remain incredibly obstinate in the extreme, then you may be fortunate to have access to a polite and welcoming MHR and/or Senator, Shadow Minister, Parliamentary Secretary or Minister without ulterior motive, and with a common and genuine interest in voter and pax preservation and keeping the “body count” to an absolute minimum. And yes, if you are particularly brave and courageous enough by all means make a submission to a parliamentary select committee. The Whistleblower path is now so well trodden via media, web fora and the blogosphere.
Yes it takes some courage and intestinal fortitude. Yes it needs a little honesty and integrity. Yes you can do it without taking down the company with you especially if there is a real niche in the market, the competition is not too fierce, you have investors with deep pockets and the business model is sound. Yes it takes time, but does it take 4 years? Maybe. We should all be thankful that there was no accident. It has been suggested that a number of altruistic TGW managers have already paid the penalty for popping their heads up above the parapet. If true, then well done those brave souls! It can take a little time, effort and money to find the right nominated persons and the means of compliance acceptable to CASA. It may be a “one off” or CASA and new supremo McCormick may have finally seen the light. As long as they continue to act without fear or favour across the whole industry according to their statutory obligations, then I am not really concerned with many of the conspiracy theories as to why it has happened now. Better late than never, and certainly better before a Bus, or a Boeing, Fokker, Embraer, Bombardier, ATR, Saab, Metro etc. ploughs into the turf.
If you take the Queen’s shilling, saddle up and put the gold/silver stripes on, then is safety and compliance your responsibility or someone else’s “problem”?
Safety is always far too important to be left to management!
Thanks OTG, Tutaewera, and BP et al for your inside info. I gather that I maybe indeed preaching to the converted on this form, but here is my further 2 bob’s worth.
As nominated persons (accountable and responsible), the CEO/MD and other senior managers particularly have an easy and direct line of comms to Airline Ops and Airworthiness at CASA and vice versa. Many other avenues exist to increase the focus and awareness on the cowboys and girls at managerial or at any level, or on the gaps and weaknesses in the systems and processes. Granted, you may not always have the easier option to resign due to family, financial and limited career choices. But it could be the safer option. Short of the preferable earlier severe regulatory intervention, or a too late accident or serious incident, perhaps the CEO/MD etc. will only take notice when managerial turnover and the driver turnover and fluctuation level impacts production and actually grounds flights, increases training costs, or reduces the collective expertise, corporate knowledge, experience and proficiency to an unacceptable level The damage to the brand and the patience of the investors and shareholders will be sorely tested from the suspension/grounding and the resulting free flights give-away to get bums back on the seats.
LEADERSHIP EXAMPLE & ANARCHY
The CEO, the local plethora of MDs and other nominated persons over time and until more recently thought that it was a risk worth taking. Hey, **** happens, TGW took a wrong punt, made a bad call, call it what you like. They decided that compliance and safety was too difficult and/or too expensive and did not fit the TGW business model. There was a simple choice: to comply or not to. When the regulator says “jump”, and your response is not immediately “how far”, and you instead go down the anarchical path thumbing your nose at CASA, then it maybe stating the frigging obvious to watch out and be bloody careful. As a nascent and relatively embryonic entrant, it is no surprise that TGW is without an ingrained and established compliance and safety culture permeating all levels. If such anarchy is exhibited at the top, if senior management actively and openly demonstrate such contempt for the regulator and compliance, then what example does this show to the troops at the bottom of the food chain? “My CEO and management team deliberately do not comply with CASA safety and compliance requirements, so why should I follow company SOPs?” The “don’t do as I do, but do as I say” model of airline management and leadership who are unable or unwilling to “walk the talk”. I am reminded occasionally, and fortunately not too frequently, in the sim and on the line (with the QAR operating) of a few guys who have slipped through the net, unsuited and not fit for purpose in a safety critical industry. Nice chaps, but who would let them anywhere near an aircraft or an airline HQ, who use the same “a little bit pregnant” argument or excuse: “she’ll be right mate”, “oh, its ok” or “don’t worry, I’ve done it before”, who argue with the “checky” or examiner, when the minima is busted, the flying is outside of tolerance, sunny side is not up, it wasn’t kept in the green, the SOPs contravened etc. This is all notwithstanding the avowed high experience levels at TGW: ex-Ansett, ex-overseas experience, high GA time etc.
The suspension late last week after the earlier show-cause notice and the CEO’s subsequent public state of denial confirms that the option to not comply was, for whatever reason, considered more prudent. Was TGW’s situation so dire, such a great emergency, requiring and allowing TGW to deviate from “SOPs to continue flying? Well, no! TGW could have stopped ops themselves until compliance and safety issues were rectified and CASA were satisfied. TGW chose not to, or were incapable of doing so, … and CASA thankfully made the decision for them. Being cruel to be kind … CASA giving TGW some breathing space and a chance to demonstrate their new found safety and compliance bona fides seems like a very good idea and course of action. Harsh, yes, but TGW have a wonderful opportunity to now show us how it can be done. The TGW risk assessment previously said that CASA would not dare act to suspend, or perhaps worst case that TGW can trade their way to break even or profitability if such a suspension/grounding was enforced. If not suicidal, and the business does indeed recover and goes onto flourish and prosper, then you really do have to admire the panache, verve and ultimate brinkmanship!
Do safety and compliance cost money, or do they save money?
Does your airline or parent at Board level have any independent non-exec. directors, does it have a safety committee? Sometimes you can find a director actually interested in regulatory compliance, risk and safety management, and in exercising his/her fiduciary and other duties in maintaining shareholder value and the brand, being proactive in avoiding the impact on the business of a grounding, and the small mess of a hull loss (or two if you can convince the paying punters to fly again with you) and associated splattered and fried cadavers, and any possible subsequent business closure or collapse?
If you are at your wits end and have exhausted all avenues intra-company, then by all means go external. As a so-called profession, do our pilot responsibilities extend beyond the cockpit, the aluminium/composite fibre tube and the weekly pay cheque? OK, not all airlines have the luxury of screening for, recruiting and employing “astronauts”, not all are IOSA, or have a LOSA program, and some airlines are still really struggling with implementation of QA, SMS, FRMS, FDM, Just culture, reporting culture, learning lessons culture etc. etc. Confidential aviation reporting systems are not there for window dressing. Flight, sim, base and hangar etc. visits, checks and audits provide ample opportunity for those staff with genuine concerns to share these with the regulator. Even as a lowly driver, from experience, I would be surprised if you have ever been refused a meeting with an aviation authority or accident investigation bureau if you so request. You may also have access to a tech. rep./committee at your pilot association. If your management remain incredibly obstinate in the extreme, then you may be fortunate to have access to a polite and welcoming MHR and/or Senator, Shadow Minister, Parliamentary Secretary or Minister without ulterior motive, and with a common and genuine interest in voter and pax preservation and keeping the “body count” to an absolute minimum. And yes, if you are particularly brave and courageous enough by all means make a submission to a parliamentary select committee. The Whistleblower path is now so well trodden via media, web fora and the blogosphere.
Yes it takes some courage and intestinal fortitude. Yes it needs a little honesty and integrity. Yes you can do it without taking down the company with you especially if there is a real niche in the market, the competition is not too fierce, you have investors with deep pockets and the business model is sound. Yes it takes time, but does it take 4 years? Maybe. We should all be thankful that there was no accident. It has been suggested that a number of altruistic TGW managers have already paid the penalty for popping their heads up above the parapet. If true, then well done those brave souls! It can take a little time, effort and money to find the right nominated persons and the means of compliance acceptable to CASA. It may be a “one off” or CASA and new supremo McCormick may have finally seen the light. As long as they continue to act without fear or favour across the whole industry according to their statutory obligations, then I am not really concerned with many of the conspiracy theories as to why it has happened now. Better late than never, and certainly better before a Bus, or a Boeing, Fokker, Embraer, Bombardier, ATR, Saab, Metro etc. ploughs into the turf.
If you take the Queen’s shilling, saddle up and put the gold/silver stripes on, then is safety and compliance your responsibility or someone else’s “problem”?
Safety is always far too important to be left to management!
It now appears that after the meeting with CASA today Tiger have now pulled all flights from sale until further notice. CASA are no longer seen to be under any pressure to reach an early decision. It would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at the meeting.
I would expect the QAN and VBA share prices to increase tomorrow (Wed)
I would expect the QAN and VBA share prices to increase tomorrow (Wed)
Last edited by B772; 5th Jul 2011 at 14:02.
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Re post above.
I think you might find that the ACCC (Australia Competition and Consumer Commission ) had a fair bit to do with it.
They have warned Tiger about the lack of a warning about possibly not being able to fly post 9th July and fines of over $1 million per offence -which means per seat sold !
.
I think you might find that the ACCC (Australia Competition and Consumer Commission ) had a fair bit to do with it.
They have warned Tiger about the lack of a warning about possibly not being able to fly post 9th July and fines of over $1 million per offence -which means per seat sold !
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Tiger is a dead duck...
As usual managers cant even manage their own company, is this a recurring theme? Its quite pathetic really...
As usual managers cant even manage their own company, is this a recurring theme? Its quite pathetic really...
This is a Rumour Network and I do love a good Conspiracy so how about this:
What if this is a well planned maneuver by the QF/J* execs to have a sudden influx of Australian pilots (from a debunked TT), who just to continue working and providing for their families, rather than being thrown out on the streets, would be willing to take up the atrocious terms and conditions available for J* postings to Singapore, New Zealand and even Vietnam.. Any action/objection against this would be seen as denying experienced, hard working Australian's with a job/chance to provide for their families.... J* would be laughing all the way to a lower cost base and slightly larger market share and said execs would be laughing all the way to a nice big bonus!
Now this is all a conspiracy theory and would rely on QF/J* being able to influence CASA in such a way that they could effectively push TT out of the sky..
What if this is a well planned maneuver by the QF/J* execs to have a sudden influx of Australian pilots (from a debunked TT), who just to continue working and providing for their families, rather than being thrown out on the streets, would be willing to take up the atrocious terms and conditions available for J* postings to Singapore, New Zealand and even Vietnam.. Any action/objection against this would be seen as denying experienced, hard working Australian's with a job/chance to provide for their families.... J* would be laughing all the way to a lower cost base and slightly larger market share and said execs would be laughing all the way to a nice big bonus!
Now this is all a conspiracy theory and would rely on QF/J* being able to influence CASA in such a way that they could effectively push TT out of the sky..
I must say, having just read your post vianostra, that it is very well put, however, I do personally believe the action taken against TT may have been a little harsh especially when in very recent times certain other airlines have experienced many incidents that could have been detrimental to inflight safety.
While it is not my place to say what could/should have been done I sincerely hope this action is to serve as a big wake-up call that certain things need to be done appropriately and proactively to avoid such an event occurring again in the future and that TT can get back on its feet!
While it is not my place to say what could/should have been done I sincerely hope this action is to serve as a big wake-up call that certain things need to be done appropriately and proactively to avoid such an event occurring again in the future and that TT can get back on its feet!
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Dont give them any ideas
Thre are too many good people at Tiger that are suffering today due the the very same diseases: ie. Promotion of Management to the point of incompetence and; Management blindly driven by greed
I would hope that if the worst is to come, (which would happen only by virture of the idiots in charge still believing that they can pick and choose regs) that the Tiger drivers would find better gigs than starving their families on the outskirts of Singapore under the draconian, totalitarian reign of Bruce BS & Co.
I would however prefer to see Davis et., al. punted and Tiger slotting in to the bigger picture of keeping a lid on Joyce's journey of destruction.
my thoughts anyway
AT
BTW: The Minister for Mascot's statements (yes he actually spoke about aviation) were ill informed and highly offensive to the good safe people at Tiger -
Thre are too many good people at Tiger that are suffering today due the the very same diseases: ie. Promotion of Management to the point of incompetence and; Management blindly driven by greed
I would hope that if the worst is to come, (which would happen only by virture of the idiots in charge still believing that they can pick and choose regs) that the Tiger drivers would find better gigs than starving their families on the outskirts of Singapore under the draconian, totalitarian reign of Bruce BS & Co.
I would however prefer to see Davis et., al. punted and Tiger slotting in to the bigger picture of keeping a lid on Joyce's journey of destruction.
my thoughts anyway
AT
BTW: The Minister for Mascot's statements (yes he actually spoke about aviation) were ill informed and highly offensive to the good safe people at Tiger -
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CASA to seek Tiger suspension until August 1
July 6, 2011 – 7:44 pm, by Ben Sandilands
CASA has just released this statement:
July 6, 2011 – 7:44 pm, by Ben Sandilands
CASA has just released this statement:
CASA TO SEEK TO EXTEND TIGER SUSPENSION
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority is to seek to extend the suspension of Tiger Airways Australia Pty Ltd.
An application will be made to the Federal Court which will have the effect of continuing the suspension.
CASA seeking a continuation of the suspension until 1 August 2011.
The application will be lodged at the Federal Court in Melbourne.
If CASA completes its investigations and determinations before 1 August 2011 and is satisfied Tiger Airways Australia no longer poses a serious and imminent risk to air safety it may be possible for it to resume operations earlier.
The suspension of Tiger Airways Australia’s operations remains in place at until either the Federal Court refuses CASA’s application or CASA withdraws it.
CASA is making the application to the Court because investigations into Tiger Airways Australia will not be completed by the end of the initial five working day suspension period.
CASA will continue to work in a constructive and co-operative manner with Tiger Airways Australia during the investigation.
CASA suspended Tiger Airways Australia’s operations on 2 July 2011 because it believed permitting the airline to continue to fly posed a serious and imminent risk to air safety.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority is to seek to extend the suspension of Tiger Airways Australia Pty Ltd.
An application will be made to the Federal Court which will have the effect of continuing the suspension.
CASA seeking a continuation of the suspension until 1 August 2011.
The application will be lodged at the Federal Court in Melbourne.
If CASA completes its investigations and determinations before 1 August 2011 and is satisfied Tiger Airways Australia no longer poses a serious and imminent risk to air safety it may be possible for it to resume operations earlier.
The suspension of Tiger Airways Australia’s operations remains in place at until either the Federal Court refuses CASA’s application or CASA withdraws it.
CASA is making the application to the Court because investigations into Tiger Airways Australia will not be completed by the end of the initial five working day suspension period.
CASA will continue to work in a constructive and co-operative manner with Tiger Airways Australia during the investigation.
CASA suspended Tiger Airways Australia’s operations on 2 July 2011 because it believed permitting the airline to continue to fly posed a serious and imminent risk to air safety.
Goodnight nurse. Sad for some mates who work there.
Management of other carriers need to sit up and pay serious attention to this debacle. Affordable safety my
.
Management of other carriers need to sit up and pay serious attention to this debacle. Affordable safety my
.
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Constantly hearing the "safety underpins the whole operation" rhetoric has worn thin for me. Clearly, in Tigers case it doesn't. Otherwise they would not have been parked up.
Buchanan take note. Spin may work on the media puppets in your pocket, but thats about it.
Buchanan take note. Spin may work on the media puppets in your pocket, but thats about it.
It now appears Tiger were ignorant of CAR 210 which prevents a carrier from selling tickets on a service that is not approved or for which it does not have a licence to operate.
This is a further example of the incompetence of the Tiger management and I am not surprised CASA will stipulate there has to be some new faces.
Rumour has it the same Captain was in command of both recent incidents !.
This is a further example of the incompetence of the Tiger management and I am not surprised CASA will stipulate there has to be some new faces.
Rumour has it the same Captain was in command of both recent incidents !.
For Lease
10 used A320s. Pick up in melbourne. Seller cant deliver as lost licence
Not had that much use but a bit rough around the edges.
Cheap and cheerful. Basic Avionics - ADF works sometimes and VHF a bit scratchy. NO luxuries - no IFE, no galley
No roadworthy - bring your mechanic
Ideal for start up carrier in 3rd world country or banana republic
Credit card fee if you pay buy anything but mastercard, keys to luggage hold extra.
Can meet you on site but seller could be delayed or may have to cancel appointment
URGENT SALE - seller now has to leave the country urgently
10 used A320s. Pick up in melbourne. Seller cant deliver as lost licence
Not had that much use but a bit rough around the edges.
Cheap and cheerful. Basic Avionics - ADF works sometimes and VHF a bit scratchy. NO luxuries - no IFE, no galley
No roadworthy - bring your mechanic
Ideal for start up carrier in 3rd world country or banana republic
Credit card fee if you pay buy anything but mastercard, keys to luggage hold extra.
Can meet you on site but seller could be delayed or may have to cancel appointment
URGENT SALE - seller now has to leave the country urgently