Airservices Australia ADS-B program - another Seasprite Fiasco?
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Do you honestly think that the new Minister for things flying gives a rat's about GA. How far into these arguements do you think he has read with purposeful mind? Hawke is history as will your ADSB project if you think the subsidy is a done deal.
I do enjoy my gravel road by the way and my nearest neighbour is half a Km away. We like it like that. I go to the local once a week to keep up with gossip and I must admit it is far better to get the fifth hand version with amendments than the immediate electronic reply of forums.
I do enjoy my gravel road by the way and my nearest neighbour is half a Km away. We like it like that. I go to the local once a week to keep up with gossip and I must admit it is far better to get the fifth hand version with amendments than the immediate electronic reply of forums.
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May I suggest to the tribunal that Mr Smith is sin binned for three weeks for harsh body contact on his opponents on numerous occasions. He has no eye for the ball and clearly targets his opposite number in the ruck.
You seem to be a selfish recipient.
You probably believe you will be rewarded for your efforts.
I believe you to be a silly little man whom I sincerely hope will fail.
You probably believe you will be rewarded for your efforts.
I believe you to be a silly little man whom I sincerely hope will fail.
For all anyone knows you and your supporters could be con-men with criminal histories who have hidden agendas.
Bob, I reckon you are right! And whats the chance he will be offered some "important" position on an Airservices "consultative' panel or something similar as a "reward" fo his support?
Why anyone bothers to contribute escapes me.
I'm in one of those moods
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RHS
. So as to stop the thread drift dilution you seek, I have responded to your ATC spin on a new thread 
http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-rep...ay-rivers.html
On those subjects, knock yourself out over there .. leave this thread for ADS-B ONLY thanks!
Before we move on though, a couple of points worthy of comment
Dick Smith 13th July 2008 11:17
. No, you only want to 'know the man' so the replys are sanitised due the spectre of certain peoples penchant to threaten
. a song comes to mind! Oh sweet C@#$%*&e 
.. about says it all, you are clearly not interested in what is right or wrong or evidence based, just motherhood statements!
You are calling the ASTRA, ABIT, GIT industry consults and signatories criminals?
even though the revised JCP and the consultative meetings say different!? ..are you satisfied that this is the case, as you seem unwilling or unable to bring any facts to support your hideous slurs to the table!
. is that all that is left for you?
.. you know me, have done for years
. Do you seriously think the decent hard working folks working on this from many agencies, companies and representative bodies are going to have anything to do with you, when you rant and rave and call them criminals!!
.. you must be completely delusional if you think they will!
that would be along the lines of enabling considered, evidence based free speech, and providing protection from those that would seek to sensor it (and them) with threats and intimidation!
Yes quite!
Captain Midnight 13th July 2008 20:04
Tis easy Captn
why should we not be able to discuss and debate just because a mouth piece doesnt like the truth of what is being divulged!
Now back to the discussion
Avionics and Fitment costs
Has anyone got any numbers or experiences to bring to the table of Avionics (new and second-hand conversion) and the sorts of cost involved with 146 GNSS and or TXPDR fit/replace etc
From my feedback, this is the issue most are interested in!
Also mentioned earlier is augmentation .... anyone know the state of play i.e.
WAAS, SBAS, GBAS - compatibility, when, how, which is most likely?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-rep...ay-rivers.html
On those subjects, knock yourself out over there .. leave this thread for ADS-B ONLY thanks!
Before we move on though, a couple of points worthy of comment
Dick Smith 13th July 2008 11:17
And Quokka you say "Play the ball not the man"
For that to work I have to know who "the man" is!
For that to work I have to know who "the man" is!
Thats just one of the reasons you and your colleagues will fail even if you are right.
If you are genuine and are not set to gain financially from this huge $100m bribe
come out in your own name and say so!
Prune anonyminity was clearly never intended for the purpose it is now being put to!
Yes quite!
Captain Midnight 13th July 2008 20:04
Why anyone bothers to contribute escapes me.
Now back to the discussion
Avionics and Fitment costs
Has anyone got any numbers or experiences to bring to the table of Avionics (new and second-hand conversion) and the sorts of cost involved with 146 GNSS and or TXPDR fit/replace etc
From my feedback, this is the issue most are interested in!
Also mentioned earlier is augmentation .... anyone know the state of play i.e.
WAAS, SBAS, GBAS - compatibility, when, how, which is most likely?
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Mr Dog
You will not be popular!
Everyone by now realises Dick's hyperbole was no match for logical factual argument so the weekend decision was that he and his sycophants (Dick-ophants?) would go the man to try force thread deterioration and closure.
One issue re fitment is our friends at CASA and the paper war that adds no value but often unreasonable cost.
This example from a friend of his estimate to fit a fixed 496 beacon:
In Australia, stupidity prevails, and so changing the ELT will require:
* A CAR 35 aeronautical engineering assessment for the mounting - including drawings - even to mount the ELT and antenna in the same screw holes, in the existing bracket, using supplied hardware and for any changes to the antenna mount or the panel cutout for the remote switch;
* A CAR 35 aeronautical engineering assessment for any required wiring modification - even if the supplier provides a complete kit including remote switch and cabling;
* An airframe LAME to remove/reinstall the interior trim and make any necessary adjustments to the hole in the instrument panel;
* An approved person to update the aircraft's weight and balance unless the weight change is negligible; and
* An avionics LAME to connect the wiring, install the battery and test the device; it might also need an E&I LAME if the remote switch requires power.
This forthcoming ELT requirement has been been known for years, yet CASA has done nothing to regulate to support it or provide relief to GA for timely installation and compliance. Instead of being a simple exchange of one unit (probably made by the same manufacturer) for another, this will become a significant project.
I hope the industry can pursue a more logical approach re ADS-B.
As an aside, I believe spy-cam managed a picture of one known to us preparing for ADS-B learning on the weekend. If I can work out how to get a pic up here, I will try and share later.
You will not be popular!
Everyone by now realises Dick's hyperbole was no match for logical factual argument so the weekend decision was that he and his sycophants (Dick-ophants?) would go the man to try force thread deterioration and closure.
One issue re fitment is our friends at CASA and the paper war that adds no value but often unreasonable cost.
This example from a friend of his estimate to fit a fixed 496 beacon:
In Australia, stupidity prevails, and so changing the ELT will require:
* A CAR 35 aeronautical engineering assessment for the mounting - including drawings - even to mount the ELT and antenna in the same screw holes, in the existing bracket, using supplied hardware and for any changes to the antenna mount or the panel cutout for the remote switch;
* A CAR 35 aeronautical engineering assessment for any required wiring modification - even if the supplier provides a complete kit including remote switch and cabling;
* An airframe LAME to remove/reinstall the interior trim and make any necessary adjustments to the hole in the instrument panel;
* An approved person to update the aircraft's weight and balance unless the weight change is negligible; and
* An avionics LAME to connect the wiring, install the battery and test the device; it might also need an E&I LAME if the remote switch requires power.
This forthcoming ELT requirement has been been known for years, yet CASA has done nothing to regulate to support it or provide relief to GA for timely installation and compliance. Instead of being a simple exchange of one unit (probably made by the same manufacturer) for another, this will become a significant project.
I hope the industry can pursue a more logical approach re ADS-B.
As an aside, I believe spy-cam managed a picture of one known to us preparing for ADS-B learning on the weekend. If I can work out how to get a pic up here, I will try and share later.
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DIck and the Emperors new clothes
Just thought I might wander back and see how the fairy story thread was going.
Seems we have gone from Chicken Little to the Emperors New Clothes in fast forward.
JM, SDD and CM and the other unbelievers, my congratulations.
Dick (if in fact that is who you are), next time you might declare your hand early so that the other honest well intentioned people on this forum might not waste precious personal time on your mischief. Maybe a heading like " I'm bored and I need people to remember who I am" might work. Just a suggestion.
Thanks Dick, (if in fact that is who you are), but a complete waste of time.
Seems we have gone from Chicken Little to the Emperors New Clothes in fast forward.
JM, SDD and CM and the other unbelievers, my congratulations.
Dick (if in fact that is who you are), next time you might declare your hand early so that the other honest well intentioned people on this forum might not waste precious personal time on your mischief. Maybe a heading like " I'm bored and I need people to remember who I am" might work. Just a suggestion.
Thanks Dick, (if in fact that is who you are), but a complete waste of time.
Thread Starter
James Michael, I agree with you in relation to the prescriptive requirements to fit a fixed 406 beacon. These come about because there is no real understanding in CASA that cost is important. It is almost as if there is a fundamentalism there which says that CASA has nothing to do with cost.
Most importantly, lots of people have criticised AOPA at the time of Boyd Munro, but he was the person who won the battle so that Australian pilots could have portable ELTs not fixed, which CASA at the time was requiring. Boyd actually used the political process to win that one and it has saved the general aviation industry an extraordinary amount of money.
Remember, a fixed ELT sinks with the plane, whereas a portable one can be held by the pilot if he or she gets out during a ditching which is normally possible.
More importantly, does anyone know who attended the 19 June ASTRA joint ABIT and GIT meeting (whatever that means)? It appears this was the group that made the unanimous decision to support the low level $100 million subsidy even though many agreed that the cost benefit study (which was the basis for the subsidy) was flawed.
Does anyone know who was representing Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar at this meeting? I ask this because I understand that the senior management at these three organisations do not support their organisations being part of this subsidy.
Most importantly, lots of people have criticised AOPA at the time of Boyd Munro, but he was the person who won the battle so that Australian pilots could have portable ELTs not fixed, which CASA at the time was requiring. Boyd actually used the political process to win that one and it has saved the general aviation industry an extraordinary amount of money.
Remember, a fixed ELT sinks with the plane, whereas a portable one can be held by the pilot if he or she gets out during a ditching which is normally possible.
More importantly, does anyone know who attended the 19 June ASTRA joint ABIT and GIT meeting (whatever that means)? It appears this was the group that made the unanimous decision to support the low level $100 million subsidy even though many agreed that the cost benefit study (which was the basis for the subsidy) was flawed.
Does anyone know who was representing Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar at this meeting? I ask this because I understand that the senior management at these three organisations do not support their organisations being part of this subsidy.
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KK
I like your style.
I think the problem is solved - it is attention span and conceptual stasis.
Less than a day ago I posted as regards analysis of the JCP responses:
Today we find:
Are there any psychologists studying this thread who can suggest means to overcome selective attention, answering only one question in ten, and baseless assertions?
Is it me - should I need to feel like an armless man trying to communicate in Auslan with a deaf/blind person?
I like your style.
I think the problem is solved - it is attention span and conceptual stasis.
Less than a day ago I posted as regards analysis of the JCP responses:
Airline stakeholder viewpoints expressed were by the following organisations: regional, domestic and international airlines; local and international airline representative bodies; and professional pilots associations.
Without exception, these respondents supported the proposal, including the proposed timing and cross-industry funding, as well as acknowledging the safety and operational benefits that will be provided by satellite-based navigation and surveillance.
Does anyone know who was representing Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar at this meeting? I ask this because I understand that the senior management at these three organisations do not support their organisations being part of this subsidy.
Is it me - should I need to feel like an armless man trying to communicate in Auslan with a deaf/blind person?
Thread Starter
James Michael,
What happens if this scenario is correct? That is Airservices has already got the GA industry to acknowledge the safety and operational benefits of the low level ADSB proposal for GA aircraft and when the mandate comes in, the Government makes an announcement that unfortunately the subsidy cannot go ahead (for legal or constitutional reasons), however if people can afford their own aircraft they should at least be able to afford a mere $10,000 for the safety and operational benefits.
I believe this is a very likely scenario. Of course everyone from Airservices, CASA and the airline industry would be extremely apologetic about this terrible change of direction "that was forced on them". Only time will tell if I am correct.
What happens if this scenario is correct? That is Airservices has already got the GA industry to acknowledge the safety and operational benefits of the low level ADSB proposal for GA aircraft and when the mandate comes in, the Government makes an announcement that unfortunately the subsidy cannot go ahead (for legal or constitutional reasons), however if people can afford their own aircraft they should at least be able to afford a mere $10,000 for the safety and operational benefits.
I believe this is a very likely scenario. Of course everyone from Airservices, CASA and the airline industry would be extremely apologetic about this terrible change of direction "that was forced on them". Only time will tell if I am correct.
I'm in one of those moods
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Of course everyone from Airservices, CASA and the airline industry would be extremely apologetic about this terrible change of direction "that was forced on them". Only time will tell if I am correct.
... if you are correct (which you are not), we will know who was responsible!
Thread Starter
Scurvy, I do not believe the subsidy will go ahead and even though I will not be involved in this decision I will be a convenient scapegoat!
I will say again that I support ADSB ,especially the high level system as it is going in in parallel with the existing radar and multilateration system.
Why don't you comment about the multimillion dollar multilateration system which is nearly fully installed in Tasmania? It will work with standard mode C transponders and without the GPS system so it could be quite a fantastic system.
If I owned Airservices I would keep rolling out the high level ADSB system including the east coast and Tassie- I would then roll out more of the multilateration system from Tassie to Cairns and then remove the SSR's- result - a fully backed up system without expensive to maintain mechanical en -route radar heads.
Then again I have always been conservative in my business decisions.
Scurvy, How about another cup of coffee!
I will say again that I support ADSB ,especially the high level system as it is going in in parallel with the existing radar and multilateration system.
Why don't you comment about the multimillion dollar multilateration system which is nearly fully installed in Tasmania? It will work with standard mode C transponders and without the GPS system so it could be quite a fantastic system.
If I owned Airservices I would keep rolling out the high level ADSB system including the east coast and Tassie- I would then roll out more of the multilateration system from Tassie to Cairns and then remove the SSR's- result - a fully backed up system without expensive to maintain mechanical en -route radar heads.
Then again I have always been conservative in my business decisions.
Scurvy, How about another cup of coffee!
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Mr Dog
Very well said. Having made up his mind that our only attack is "Into the Valley of Death" General Murray Rivers (I like your style) will send in the GA cannon fodder - having done all possible to ensure the enemy are forewarned and forearmed.
A legacy of successful campaigns - Airspace 2000 = another unique Australian mandate, transponders in Class E; User Pays = but not for the USA; 25 Years of holding at Williamtown = ?; Free transit through Avalon = Class C; Shorter straight in approaches for NAS2C = actually for me at Bowylie (wiley being the appropriate term); now ADS-B as the next campaign.
Based on outstanding past campaigns, let us march forward to his cry "I am their leader, I must follow them - oh, darn, I don't have any facts or a map to find my way".
Very well said. Having made up his mind that our only attack is "Into the Valley of Death" General Murray Rivers (I like your style) will send in the GA cannon fodder - having done all possible to ensure the enemy are forewarned and forearmed.
A legacy of successful campaigns - Airspace 2000 = another unique Australian mandate, transponders in Class E; User Pays = but not for the USA; 25 Years of holding at Williamtown = ?; Free transit through Avalon = Class C; Shorter straight in approaches for NAS2C = actually for me at Bowylie (wiley being the appropriate term); now ADS-B as the next campaign.
Based on outstanding past campaigns, let us march forward to his cry "I am their leader, I must follow them - oh, darn, I don't have any facts or a map to find my way".
Gee Dick, you catch on quick. And what do think happens then? The CASA mandates and all your struggling GA mates have to fork out for fitment or get locked out of all airspace down to CTAF(R)
I bet your advisor(s) will thank you from the bottom of his/their heart(s) that you saved him/them from subsidised fitment.
Well, how about putting your name on the other side of the ledger so we can see you are serious about ADS-B and we will think you are an alright sort of guy.
Multilateration, as proposed by the Canadian government, is a stopgap measure until ADS-B is fully implimented. Why would it be any different here. Look at the number of stations to be installed in the small area of Tassie and then multiply that by at least 200 and you may come close to getting the same coverage from AD to CS. While you are at it, why not push for UAT and make it free for GA like the yanks. 1700 sites across the lower 48 to get the coverage so GA can get their free UAT with TIS and Garmin gear at ten times the cost compared to the Europeans. What a wonderful dream you have!
I bet your advisor(s) will thank you from the bottom of his/their heart(s) that you saved him/them from subsidised fitment.
Scurvy, I do not believe the subsidy will go ahead and even though I will not be involved in this decision I will be a convenient scapegoat!
Multilateration, as proposed by the Canadian government, is a stopgap measure until ADS-B is fully implimented. Why would it be any different here. Look at the number of stations to be installed in the small area of Tassie and then multiply that by at least 200 and you may come close to getting the same coverage from AD to CS. While you are at it, why not push for UAT and make it free for GA like the yanks. 1700 sites across the lower 48 to get the coverage so GA can get their free UAT with TIS and Garmin gear at ten times the cost compared to the Europeans. What a wonderful dream you have!
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This is hilarious. Its like a Skulls scene with masked private school F
s standing around the ostrasized one, laughing, saying "Look at him, he's out of his mind!!!" while he's giving reasonable forcasts on how this is going to play out.
Unlike a movie however, it is very likely that this will go through, we will pay for it and it will be a mess. CASA will release a glowing report on its success however and Airservices will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Rugby euphemisms? Come on...
s standing around the ostrasized one, laughing, saying "Look at him, he's out of his mind!!!" while he's giving reasonable forcasts on how this is going to play out. Unlike a movie however, it is very likely that this will go through, we will pay for it and it will be a mess. CASA will release a glowing report on its success however and Airservices will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Rugby euphemisms? Come on...
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Antz
You got it all right except for two things.
First, there is at present a semi-contractual arrangement that gets the subsidy for GA. A contract is based on offer, acceptance, consideration.
Should there be an attempt to pull the subsidy, there is a distinct argument that the contract is frustrated.
BUT, big BUT, if Dick "WINS" this for us then in the technological evolution of time we are GUARANTEED to have to pay for it because ADS-B WILL come about and WILL be mandated by CASA.
So do we follow Dick into guaranteed expense or take the punt on the subsidy, for which the next subsidy option (2028) is too late to save our wallets.
Second, if this was a reasoned debate, Dick would not be the ostracised one. Unfortunately, Dick has no credibility in this matter - his behaviour is such that the authorities refuse to give him the box of matches in the ADS-B gunpowder factory. Have you seen his reply yet from the Minister promoting him to ADS-B consultant?
Someone, not me, recently said this about someone else (not saying who, you play fill in the dots) -
In similar vein, if a little knowledge is dangerous, Dick's ministerial appointment to ADS-B consultant will be cancelled to make him head of our Military SAS 
Turning to ADS-B fitment, I had two discussions this morning that question whether the fitment itself and associated paperwork may take the total past the subsidy. I'll continue to dig.
You got it all right except for two things.
First, there is at present a semi-contractual arrangement that gets the subsidy for GA. A contract is based on offer, acceptance, consideration.
Should there be an attempt to pull the subsidy, there is a distinct argument that the contract is frustrated.
BUT, big BUT, if Dick "WINS" this for us then in the technological evolution of time we are GUARANTEED to have to pay for it because ADS-B WILL come about and WILL be mandated by CASA.
So do we follow Dick into guaranteed expense or take the punt on the subsidy, for which the next subsidy option (2028) is too late to save our wallets.
Second, if this was a reasoned debate, Dick would not be the ostracised one. Unfortunately, Dick has no credibility in this matter - his behaviour is such that the authorities refuse to give him the box of matches in the ADS-B gunpowder factory. Have you seen his reply yet from the Minister promoting him to ADS-B consultant?
Someone, not me, recently said this about someone else (not saying who, you play fill in the dots) -
He did not seem to know too much about the ADS-B proposal, the technicalities or the equipment, nor did he want to listen to any explanation of what was proposed
Turning to ADS-B fitment, I had two discussions this morning that question whether the fitment itself and associated paperwork may take the total past the subsidy. I'll continue to dig.
Call me a 'Dick-ophant' or whatever childish name you want, but I don't want a subsidy to fit what may turn out to be an expensive orphan system.
I want VHS, not Beta, please.
JM / SDD: Which ADSB system is the VHS, and which is the Beta, and how do you know?
Edited to add:
Unadulterated twaddle!
I want VHS, not Beta, please.
JM / SDD: Which ADSB system is the VHS, and which is the Beta, and how do you know?
Edited to add:
First, there is at present a semi-contractual arrangement that gets the subsidy for GA. A contract is based on offer, acceptance, consideration.
Should there be an attempt to pull the subsidy, there is a distinct argument that the contract is frustrated.
Should there be an attempt to pull the subsidy, there is a distinct argument that the contract is frustrated.
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Creamie
You know I hate it when you do that Ah so!
Anyway, perhaps explain succinctly why an offer made in the JCP as a consideration to GA fitment would not allow the deal to be challenged if withdrawn. Are you suggesting that a legal challenge would be treated as 'unadulterated twaddle'?
VHA and Beta - which one is the standard at flight levels and why do you think the USA is back in 'reflecting' mode as they begin to understand that those who fly GA at those levels are unlikely to fit two systems?
How do we know 1090ES is alive and well (and UAT is .......?)
By the number of participating flights - see earlier post.
Don't volunteer for 'Dick-ophant', that's reserved for his crew who go people bashing. At least in your case one expects a reasoned argument (as long as you don't twiddle).
You know I hate it when you do that
Ah so!Anyway, perhaps explain succinctly why an offer made in the JCP as a consideration to GA fitment would not allow the deal to be challenged if withdrawn. Are you suggesting that a legal challenge would be treated as 'unadulterated twaddle'?
VHA and Beta - which one is the standard at flight levels and why do you think the USA is back in 'reflecting' mode as they begin to understand that those who fly GA at those levels are unlikely to fit two systems?
How do we know 1090ES is alive and well (and UAT is .......?)
By the number of participating flights - see earlier post.
Don't volunteer for 'Dick-ophant', that's reserved for his crew who go people bashing. At least in your case one expects a reasoned argument (as long as you don't twiddle).