QF to shed 2000 jobs

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Bypass Ratio, I too flew with a QF DEC the other day.

And because we flew with him, everyone now knows who you and I fly for. That being the case, I think it would do no harm - in the interests of 'Group' goodwill - for you to think a little more carefully and sensitively about how you word your posts.

Whether or not what you wrote comes true, there are many people in both QF and JQ who have staked their careers on the choice they've made. In a perfect world, none of us will ever suffer a slowdown in progression because of the fleet/flying plans made by the Executive. But it's not a perfect world.

Rightfully, pilots and other operational staff in both camps feel a degree of nervousness about who will get what and where it will ultimately take them. This forum and it's members' inputs will have NO bearing on the end result.

Why then don't we just continue to post rumours we've heard and hypotheses that we think others might be interested to know about, and leave off with the smugness/anger/vindictiveness?

I'd like to think that we can, one day, be a cohesive 'Group' pilot group if we start/continue to show one-another the respect that should stem from not only our professional standing, but because of the common employer we all work under.

[teresa green]

Excellent letter in the Australian today, well worth a read.

[Mstr Caution]

The Qantas brand has been damaged so badly of late with Classic 747s, tired 767's etc. You could fix the image in a very short space of time by introducing quality new product like 787's and a380's enmasse.

I believe the trigger mechanism will be longhaul EBA8. Until certainty existed as to the cost structure of introducing the 787 to mainline, managament has held back on such announcments.

JB made it a requirement of EBA8 to have the 787 pay structure included. Add reducing training costs associated with promotion in mainline & a simplified agreement & an avenue for mainline growth exists.

There will be no slowing in the recruitment requirements for mainline & this will be an indicator as to where the growth in the future will be.

MC

[max autobrakes]

I think Mstr Caution has hit the nail on the head.
This management mantra about Qantas pilots being 30% more expensive than Jetstar pilots is in essence a myth.
A myth perpetuated by management as an industrial tool to keep the Jetstar bretherin champhing at the bit for the dangled carrot and the Qantas pilots purpetually on edge.
It's the 787 we're talking about here so lets compare apples with apples shall we. What exactly is the average take home pay of a 767 Qantas pilot compared to a A330 Jetstar pilot ? I bet the difference isn't anywhere near 30% and if this new EBA gets up it will be narrowed even further by the time the first 787 start arriving.
This 30% difference that is touted may exist between Qantas 737 and JetStar A320 drivers and B747 drivers and JetStar A330 drivers but where the bulk of pilots in the future will be is on the 787 essentially a 767 replacement and the difference isn't that great.
PS the 737 shorthaul award wasn't even construed by Qantas so I wonder if it was done today what would Qantas 737 drivers be earning , 30% more than JetStar?

[max autobrakes]

KiwiconeheadQuote:
(ii) a registered business name that includes the expression “Qantas”
Hence the extra words under the PornStar titles?



Kiwi re-read your own post.
"A registered business name that includes the expression "Qantas"
I don't see Qantas anywhere in the registered business name "JetStar Airways"
Just plastering "A part of the Qantas Group" down the side of an aircraft I am informed ,probably does not satisfy the intent of the ACT.

[Mstr Caution]

What ceases to amaze me is that you Qantas pilots cannot see the writing on the wall!! Jetstar will be doing all the expansion at the expense of mainline pilots.

I hope your not listening to the ex Ansett guys floating around J*. The same guys in Ansett management who were spruiking to the line guys that all will be ok, once the airline works things thru whilst under business administration.

This forum and it's members' inputs will have NO bearing on the end result.

So true, Dixon has repeatedly said in the past that the pilot body will not determine the way foreward for any part of the qantas group. This includes how much or otherwise the pilots are renumerated.

[blackguard]

Information Please

Jetstar domestic will most likely stay.
Jetstar International....well...its day are numbered.
How many destinations does Jetstar Int. have and how many more can it have?
The LCC Model has been undone by the cost of fuel.
Jet* cannot stand on its own financially
Jet* in japan is generally seen as insulting by the Japanese market.
If an LCC was viable in Japan it would have been done by the Japanese carriers.
787s would be a waste of technology domestically.
Once Dixon goes the attitude toward Jet* Int. will change.
The whole exercise has been about driving mainline costs.
To this end it has been reasonably successful.
A coat of paint and Jet* Int disappears
These may be simple observations but they do have some merit.
As with most circumstances time willl clarify all.

[genex]

If the JQ drivers don't get paid much less than their mainline cousins....why all the venom over the recent JQ EBA? Don't sign....don't sign....don't sign....was the mantra from AIPA. Yet AIPA seems to have signed up it's own deal a.s.a.p. and no public debate!

Fuel a growing % of costs? Hmmmmm.....thinking don't let pilots near the books. If JQ's costs....or anyone elses....were so refined that toothpicks were 65% of variable costs.....would that be a threat or an opportunity? Maybe best to stick to flying planes I think. What if JQ's overheads grew to QF mainline levels....God forbid....then fuel would be a lower portion of costs....would that be good?

And...I think history will show the B787 family to be an asset on routes from 1 hour to 16 hours.

Anyway....as a humble...and I excel at that....former pilot....what would I know?

[brucek]

$$$

Genex, or anyone else: What are the current published salaries for QF, JQ, VB and TR/TG captains and FOs?

I'm intersted for at least two reasons.

1. The curent debate re QF Vs JQ, and
2. pilot and GA instructor salaries compared to the airlines, other industries, and the risks Vs costs given the time and funding required to get an ATPL/MECIR, etc, along with the regulatory regime, check rides, sim sessions, et al hassles associated with aviation when compared to the salaries and relativley lower risks and hassles associated with other professions these days.

[aulglarse]

Brucek there is a thread on floating around on something similar to "what did you earn?" Yes, I did earn approx 30% less than a QF 737 skipper!

[Angle of Attack]

Genex

Yet AIPA seems to have signed up it's own deal a.s.a.p. and no public debate!

Let the debate begin! Of course now that both parties have agreed to sign up now the crew can debate it! And reject or accept it, Quite simple really! If it gets voted up then there was not enough debate, if not well then I am sure it will happen!

And I think your right about the 787 and also what do I know too?

[Keg]

Once again genex distorts reality.

If the JQ drivers don't get paid much less than their mainline cousins....why all the venom over the recent JQ EBA? Don't sign....don't sign....don't sign....was the mantra from AIPA.

I don't know if the gap between QF drivers and J* drivers is 30% or not. However if it's 15% then it's too much. J* drivers do not deserve anything less than their QF colleagues. They do not deserve to work with worse conditions. J* drivers said 'no' to the first deal and wanted more. The goal posts were moved and they didn't get it. It'd be nice if there were no difference and they paid the same as QF drivers.

Yet AIPA seems to have signed up it's own deal a.s.a.p. and no public debate!

ROFLMAO. This is just plain ignorance. There is significant public debate. No doubt after the deal leaks out to the J* crew that debate will continue here on PPRUNE. Given that there was little contribution from the J* crew on the thread about their EBA then I don't expect you'll get much traffic from the QF crew on ours. Of course there is already much robust discussion- and misinformation similar to what you tend to peddle genex- on Qrewroom.

And...I think history will show the B787 family to be an asset on routes from 1 hour to 16 hours.

I think you're right. I suspect the 787 (and A350) is going to be a 'game changer'. The question is where to get the best return for that investment. Is it going to make more money for the group flogging around on highly elastic international low cost routes where relatively efficient machinery is already deployed but is struggling to break even or will it make more money flogging around on the premium network where quite inefficient machinery is currently being utilised but still making good money.

[Mstr Caution]

J* drivers do not deserve anything less than their QF colleagues

I agree whole heartedly with this statement.

However the two will only co-exist while a cost differential exists.

MC

[jet.jackson]

So.....

What would be the ideal airframe to run up and down the east of Australia.
Conversely what would be the ideal airframe to replace the 744 on thinner routes ex Oz?.
Wouldnt yield on an international route be higher than say SYD/MEL?
What about comparative utilization?
Sorry..just being the Devils Advocate for the purpose of gaining informed opinion.

[Angle of Attack]

Mstr Caution

However the two will only co-exist while a cost differential exists

If it was an Airline on its own fair enough compare the costs but this is the problem, its not, its being heavily subsidised with mainline services all over the place. In fact mainline aircraft are being used for Jetstar services frequently. Case in point couple I knew recently flew Jetstar from FUKUOKA - SYDNEY and they got a flight JAL to Tokyo then QF to Syd WTF? This is not a true airline on its own feet! Break the umbilical cord and then lets see what happens! Bring it on!

Without bias anyone knows what will happen and it IS happening...

[genex]

As they say...."be very careful what you ask for because you might get it..."

Without JQ, Qantas would have been gutted by now. Virgin, Tiger and anyone else would only have needed to steal a few % of QF's traffic to leave your airline dead in the water.

If you really want to know I'll explain it to you one day. Right now there's about 40 aircraft in JQ livery working night and day carrying a lot of traffic. Do you in your wildest dreams believe that many of them would be flying QF today if Jetstar didn't exist?

[genex]

And Keg....you are right about the 787 being a great Cityflier machine. I was surprised the Group didn't order the 787-3 just for that. Maybe one day.

But the strategy I guess would be that the 767s are there and the market is captive. The 787 won't expand QF's domestic base, simply do it more efficiently. Whereas, and I guess you've been in Qantas long enough to see the QF route map shrink like a snowman in the sun....the 787 will allow Qantas to expand overseas, something that hasn't happened for a very long time. The 15 787-8s will make an enormous difference in their first couple of years til the -9 aircraft come and replaces the -8s.

Otherwise, by say 2013, by the time the -9 aircraft come, you'd have a profitable domestic 787 operation but at the price of an international route map consisting of A380 routes from SYD/MEL to LAX, FRA, SIN and LHR. Full stop. The gas guzzling 744 fleet would all be saucepans and the number of jobs halved.

Mind you....nothing to say that a new CEO wouldn't try the above...so don't push the idea too hard!!!....but few airlines have ever really shrunk themselves into profitability. Win, lose or draw, from the moment Dixon drew that famous 65% line in the sand and started JQ's overseas expansion...Qantas has been growing markets not giving them up.

If...and its a big if....the Group now had 230 X B777 variants in service right now...we wouldn't need to have this discussion at all. Sigh....

[Condition lever]

AoA,

Yeah..... WTF????

In fact mainline aircraft are being used for Jetstar services frequently. Case in point couple I knew recently flew Jetstar from FUKUOKA - SYDNEY and they got a flight JAL to Tokyo then QF to Syd WTF?

I knew someone who knew someone who knew nothing!!!
What a load of absolute crap.
If their intention was to fly out of Japan with Jetstar, they would have positioned to KIX or NGO - not NRT.
Perhaps you should be spending your time studying rather than posting on this site.

[lowerlobe]

Do you in your wildest dreams believe that many of them would be flying QF today if Jetstar didn't exist?

genex.....If you are talking about the back packer/coach bus market ....then you are probably right but as VB are finding out there are other groups that want to fly than the just forementioned group.

However,if QF had put the money spent on the J* start up into their own product they would have satisfied or appealed to other segments of the market who want a full service flight.

There is also the valid point that J* has a definite financial advantage in being the offspring of an established parent with not inconsiderable resources.

The bottom line is though that you cannot deny that the use of the LCC is used or has been effective in lowering pay and conditions of existing and potential employees in aviation jobs in Australia.That is the most basic premise of an LCC..a lower cost base..and we all know what that means.

[Mstr Caution]

AofA

I agree, why have an airline within an airline?

Industrially J* has achieved what it may have been established to achieve. An EBA8 which sees the required efficiencies established within mainline.

In my opinion J* international will go the same way as Australian Airlines.

MC