QF to shed 2000 jobs
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Funny that they say the Pilot's Union has "accepted" the new deal.
The simple fact is that the EBA has essentially been agreed to between the two teams of negotiators, but the pilots still actually have to vote on it yet!
There is a fair amount of "robust" debate on other private forums regarding the merits of the new deal. What AIPA says is good and what the majority of pilots think is good may well be two different things (as we have seen in the past). Time will tell I suppose.
The simple fact is that the EBA has essentially been agreed to between the two teams of negotiators, but the pilots still actually have to vote on it yet!
There is a fair amount of "robust" debate on other private forums regarding the merits of the new deal. What AIPA says is good and what the majority of pilots think is good may well be two different things (as we have seen in the past). Time will tell I suppose.
Nunc est bibendum
You heard it here first!
The interesting part of all of this is the 787 acquisition. Given J* already has relatively new equipment in the A330 and it's supposedly working for them, perhaps QF may become the initial type operator of the 787. It'll enable QF to retire the significantly more thirsty 767 fleet and reinvigorate the domestic product which is currently yielding better than the J* operation. It'll lower the average age of the 'group' fleet in the short term and still leave J* with a relatively efficient aircraft to continue to fly to the 'softening' (according to Geoff himself) international tourist markets. Of course if J* can't make those markets work with the A330 and the 787 makes the difference then it's a very marginal route to start off with. In that case you'd probably make better money with that 787 asset in different colours on the mainline network. 
It's a bit like the 777, maybe if I say it often enough it'll come true!
It's a bit like the 777, maybe if I say it often enough it'll come true!
Gidday Frazzled.
Good question. The Chief pilot of REX has always held up the possibility of a downturn in the industry as a "solution" to REX's crewing whoes. Indeed the attrition of REX pilots has slowed. The reality is, downturn or not, the fundamental reason for these issues has not been addressed. Just as Jestar, QF, DJ and all the other airlines look towards expansion in the coming years, REX will be scratching even more for "experienced" pilots well into the future.
Currently more than 50 REX F/O's have been bypassed as the move down the seniority list continues. The latest available Command candidates are now only 50 from the bottom!
Sorry about the thread drift mods, just trying to answer a question.
Good question. The Chief pilot of REX has always held up the possibility of a downturn in the industry as a "solution" to REX's crewing whoes. Indeed the attrition of REX pilots has slowed. The reality is, downturn or not, the fundamental reason for these issues has not been addressed. Just as Jestar, QF, DJ and all the other airlines look towards expansion in the coming years, REX will be scratching even more for "experienced" pilots well into the future.
Currently more than 50 REX F/O's have been bypassed as the move down the seniority list continues. The latest available Command candidates are now only 50 from the bottom!
Sorry about the thread drift mods, just trying to answer a question.
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Congratulations Geoff, you are now able to do what you have been busting to do for a long time, get rid of staff. The unions cannot touch you, the Govt, will make oh dear! noises, and you will appear on TV with a suitably sad expression. The reality is if you asked any staff member of ways that could save money and increase productivity they could and would come up with some brilliant ideas, that would keep people in employment and increase QFs ability to operate in the tough times ahead. Yes there is deadwood in the company, mainly in middle management, unable to go any futher themselves, stuck half way up the ladder, but making damm sure nobody else passes them, with their little spivs keeping a eye out for anybody that could be a threat(these little creeps will keep their jobs because they are useful) (no it does not involve any in my family they are either up the sharp end or on the hangar floor) but it angers me, because there are many people who are already doing the jobs of one and a half people, just ask anybody who tries to check in. A Airline has to provide service, a Airline has to have a good well trained cabin crew (they have the ability to make or break a company) a Airline has to have happy well trained ground staff secure in their jobs, a Airline has to have good morale, a Airline has to have highly trained, happy, secure pilots and engineers and without these ingredients the airline is basically 
. Let there be no doubt, QF is at a crossroads, and it is going to take careful management to get it back on track, and I am not talking about oil prices. The travelling public will wear the increase in prices, just like the poor buggers will wear increases in food, petrol, and high interest rates, because they have no choice, and many of them will have no choice but to travel for all sorts of reasons and QF knows that. Fcuk the shareholders Geoffrey, somehow, someone, has to get this once proud, once amazing icon back on to straight and level, for the sake of everbody in it and for the country itself. My rant is over. ( and for those who scoff at the possiblilty of QF ever being a happy functioning airline, believe me it was once and can be again)
. Let there be no doubt, QF is at a crossroads, and it is going to take careful management to get it back on track, and I am not talking about oil prices. The travelling public will wear the increase in prices, just like the poor buggers will wear increases in food, petrol, and high interest rates, because they have no choice, and many of them will have no choice but to travel for all sorts of reasons and QF knows that. Fcuk the shareholders Geoffrey, somehow, someone, has to get this once proud, once amazing icon back on to straight and level, for the sake of everbody in it and for the country itself. My rant is over. ( and for those who scoff at the possiblilty of QF ever being a happy functioning airline, believe me it was once and can be again)
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Any truth in what I herd?
that Qantas will basically be cutting down to pretty well nothing (compared to what it is now), and moving everything to Jetstar to make people on a smaller wage, the magicly go straight back to Qantas in a much larger size with cheaper employees....
Any Truth?
that Qantas will basically be cutting down to pretty well nothing (compared to what it is now), and moving everything to Jetstar to make people on a smaller wage, the magicly go straight back to Qantas in a much larger size with cheaper employees....
Any Truth?
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teresa green, your bitterness is causing you to make some pretty wild statements.
This statement:
Is plain wrong.
And this statement:
Plain wrong as well!
This statement:
The reality is if you asked any staff member of ways that could save money and increase productivity they could and would come up with some brilliant ideas...
And this statement:
The travelling public will wear the increase in prices...
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Maybe JQ won't get the 787 but the QF boys are dreaming if they think they'll be fly'n em......
From my inside sources in mangement, alot of resources sent to JQ in the next 12 months,.......maybe even JQ pilots flying with gold bars on their shoulders.......
Heaven Forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
From my inside sources in mangement, alot of resources sent to JQ in the next 12 months,.......maybe even JQ pilots flying with gold bars on their shoulders.......
Heaven Forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
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With all due respect I think teresa Green even though self admitted it was a rant, has a valid point. The QF structure has been steadily getting top heavy the last few years, to a point of tipping over. And a fairly minor industrial action by engineers (banning overtime and a couple of 4 hour stop works), combined with a delay of maintenance brought on by last years APA takeover bid have resulted in the last several weeks of chaos. It just shows how thin on the company is on front line jobs, while the office beancounters have festered and increased. In some ways the minor action by engineers has just shown how the front line staff are holding QF up, managers or not when it comes to the crunch it's the coal face holding the product up. I hate anyone to lose their job but I hate to say the management has become too fat in the product, its a fact.
And I'd hate this thread to become a JQ QF bashing forum please like the last few posts, its a fact, Jetstar have halted recruitment (as well as the leave of absences given out) and QF recruitment is still going to go on at a slightly reduced pace. Leisure travel is softening rapidly, it will always be the first to go, in a slowing economy. Remember Oil is down around 14%the last 3 days, its still volatile but I hope it doesn't cause different pilot groups to bag each other too much we are all in for the ride !
And I'd hate this thread to become a JQ QF bashing forum please like the last few posts, its a fact, Jetstar have halted recruitment (as well as the leave of absences given out) and QF recruitment is still going to go on at a slightly reduced pace. Leisure travel is softening rapidly, it will always be the first to go, in a slowing economy. Remember Oil is down around 14%the last 3 days, its still volatile but I hope it doesn't cause different pilot groups to bag each other too much we are all in for the ride !
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Do the math
FDG & MMBOP, Im afraid Theresa G is correct about the cost part at least
1. The cost of grounding planes in Australia due to incident or accident is inexcess of $114m pa (conservatively, 2006 costs and current stats in I&A up to 30% higher) . If you read CASA findings - based on policies and procedures required to decrease I&A - and the testimonies of crew/maintenance staff - you'll see that the majority of A&I could be efficiently and effectively reduced -simply by having taken their advice earlier.
Cost benefit it is a no brainer - except the costs imposed on staffing are borne by the airline, but the costs from A&I are more broadly distributed. Its a question of cost base not cost efficiency.
The proposed legilsation increasing liabilities to airlines may change this equation, so we can only hope there are some good bean counters (like me
) doing this C/B Analysis and proposed job losses will be smaller.
Though as often raised, the decision makers - namely Geoff who is out the door any day now, has a shorter term cost escalation concern. He'll likely take the risk that the major costs in I&A will occur after his retirement.
2. Um, UBS, JP Morgan & Citibank analyst reports of July all concur that the 35% price increase since Aug '07 is above their fuel cost margins. Dont believe the hype.... customers are paying for profits, not oil.
Happy to take you through the figures
Moral of the story - listen to your elders.
1. The cost of grounding planes in Australia due to incident or accident is inexcess of $114m pa (conservatively, 2006 costs and current stats in I&A up to 30% higher) . If you read CASA findings - based on policies and procedures required to decrease I&A - and the testimonies of crew/maintenance staff - you'll see that the majority of A&I could be efficiently and effectively reduced -simply by having taken their advice earlier.
Cost benefit it is a no brainer - except the costs imposed on staffing are borne by the airline, but the costs from A&I are more broadly distributed. Its a question of cost base not cost efficiency.
The proposed legilsation increasing liabilities to airlines may change this equation, so we can only hope there are some good bean counters (like me
) doing this C/B Analysis and proposed job losses will be smaller.Though as often raised, the decision makers - namely Geoff who is out the door any day now, has a shorter term cost escalation concern. He'll likely take the risk that the major costs in I&A will occur after his retirement.
2. Um, UBS, JP Morgan & Citibank analyst reports of July all concur that the 35% price increase since Aug '07 is above their fuel cost margins. Dont believe the hype.... customers are paying for profits, not oil.
Happy to take you through the figures
Moral of the story - listen to your elders.
its obvious that JQ wont be flying the 787........ you have to be kidding me. Hey I tell you something, we will be flying the 787, we will still be receiving our A320's, we will be operating the A330 into Europe and be receiving more of them over the next couple of years, hence doubling the fleet.
Heaven forbid!!!!!!!!!
Grow up. Such ill fate makes me sick. Everyone is affected by this. I don't want to be spiteful but Karma boys and girls, Karma, and a bit of empathy for your fellow man.
Why do people always turn a productive forum into a pissing contest.
Heaven forbid!!!!!!!!!
Grow up. Such ill fate makes me sick. Everyone is affected by this. I don't want to be spiteful but Karma boys and girls, Karma, and a bit of empathy for your fellow man.
Why do people always turn a productive forum into a pissing contest.
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As I understand it from friends who are former 777 drivers now employed by JQ, they are well down the AOC preparation path in flight ops and engineering and if it weren't for the Boeing delays would already be operating the 787.
Is there any special value that QF mainline ops and engineering would bring to the 787 that JQ can't?
As for the international LCC model....I'd hazard a guess that about 85% of overseas seats are sold to travellers whose primary concern (after safety and sometimes not even that) is price. Go and have a look at Gatwick anytime and see the endless stream of folks off on 4 to 12 hour flights to warm places.
I imagine that if Qantas manages the product and yield in the premium end of the JQ business then they'll continue to do well. Qantas, and almost all successful airlines, has continually refined the fleet/product/yield mix for its suite of business and market segments and will continue to do so. I would have thought that Jetstar was simply another viable tool in their armoury.
BUt as my children often point out to me....I could be wrong.
Is there any special value that QF mainline ops and engineering would bring to the 787 that JQ can't?
As for the international LCC model....I'd hazard a guess that about 85% of overseas seats are sold to travellers whose primary concern (after safety and sometimes not even that) is price. Go and have a look at Gatwick anytime and see the endless stream of folks off on 4 to 12 hour flights to warm places.
I imagine that if Qantas manages the product and yield in the premium end of the JQ business then they'll continue to do well. Qantas, and almost all successful airlines, has continually refined the fleet/product/yield mix for its suite of business and market segments and will continue to do so. I would have thought that Jetstar was simply another viable tool in their armoury.
BUt as my children often point out to me....I could be wrong.
Nunc est bibendum
Can we leave the 'my tool is bigger than your tool' discussion behind WRT the 787? JQ is quite capable of operating and starting up the 787 operation. My comments were about whether or not the equipment would yield more effectively domestically. QF have made decisions like this previously. In the aftermath of the Ansett collapse we pulled off HNL-Canada due to the fact that the 767 asset made more money domestically than it did flogging into Canada. That is the only point I make about the 787. In terms of yield we're probably far better off replacing the 767 with the 787 than replacing A330 capacity! 
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Bula,
I agree, pissing contests achieve nothing.
Nobody knows what will happen in the future!
Ask yourself : if fuel price doubles [again] who will stop flying,
cashed up retirees and businessmen or first time "holiday" travelers?
I forsee a downturn, who is affected most is the question.
I agree, pissing contests achieve nothing.
Nobody knows what will happen in the future!
Ask yourself : if fuel price doubles [again] who will stop flying,
cashed up retirees and businessmen or first time "holiday" travelers?
I forsee a downturn, who is affected most is the question.
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Fuel Costs
QF flies a 747 to LA with 350 pax, fuel levy per pax ex SYD is $253.
Total revenue collected from punters is $88550.00
How much fuel does one of those things actually burn to LA ?
QF flies a 747 to LA with 350 pax, fuel levy per pax ex SYD is $253.
Total revenue collected from punters is $88550.00
How much fuel does one of those things actually burn to LA ?
Tankengine.. couldn't agree more. But there is still 4.6% growth in the Australasian market and I foresee that the JQ model will reduce domestic capacity but will excel with international travel.
Business travellers will still travel, holiday makers will still travel. I think people need to face the facts that both the JQ and QF markets will result in capacity reduction but no-one factor will throw the other one to the wolves.
At the end of the day are people really doing it that hard that a 30% increase in a JQ domestic fare would rule them out completely?
Capacity management is the key and I think the group is making the right moves, even if its not everyones bitter sweet symphony.
Business travellers will still travel, holiday makers will still travel. I think people need to face the facts that both the JQ and QF markets will result in capacity reduction but no-one factor will throw the other one to the wolves.
At the end of the day are people really doing it that hard that a 30% increase in a JQ domestic fare would rule them out completely?
Capacity management is the key and I think the group is making the right moves, even if its not everyones bitter sweet symphony.
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Fuel Costs
QF flies a 747 to LA with 350 pax, fuel levy per pax ex SYD is $253.
Total revenue collected from punters is $88550.00
How much fuel does one of those things actually burn to LA ?
QF flies a 747 to LA with 350 pax, fuel levy per pax ex SYD is $253.
Total revenue collected from punters is $88550.00
How much fuel does one of those things actually burn to LA ?