V-australia...Tell me it isnt so?
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A CS or cabin manager will be on 57K. Yes, be a CC member and make more than a pilot. Now I am not cc bashing here but that is bloody ridiculous. No 3 in charge or 300 odd people and 200 million or the CS. Mmmmm Who should get more. Then again we are our own worst enemies. We obviously think that its enough, as we (pilots) have excepted it. All the cruise relief FO coarses are full as we speak.
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V Australia Cabin Crew Wages
Silversleuth is right...
V Australia Cabin Crew wages are:
1. Cabin Crew (Year One) $37,500
2. Cabin Crew (Year Two) $40,000
3. Cabin Leader $49,000
4. Flight Manager $59,000
V Australia Cabin Crew wages are:
1. Cabin Crew (Year One) $37,500
2. Cabin Crew (Year Two) $40,000
3. Cabin Leader $49,000
4. Flight Manager $59,000
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2dots
So What?? If you don't like it then DON"t apply, easy hey!! That $$$ sounds ok to me, maybe I'm too easily pleased, anyway, they'll get all the pilots they need and more, so if you don't like the salary then as I said , stop whingeing and don't apply. 2nd officers pay sounds ok to me too, especially if you are comparing it with his PA31 salary last week.... :0(
Whaddya expect, $200,000 for the R/t operator with 1,000 hours.... Stop moaning!!!!
Whaddya expect, $200,000 for the R/t operator with 1,000 hours.... Stop moaning!!!!
I must admit chicken or fish 2, the blurb is pretty comprehensive. It only took them 8 months to publish it! Maybe they were getting something along the lines of "Tell me what's on offer or forget it!" I heard previously that the 12% super was inclusive, and now it seems to be additional, exactly where it should be by the way.
But I gotta tell you the gall in publishing such tripe certainly has me worried. I hope for the sake of VOZ that the people running the show have a better grasp of reality than what has been written above. A good friend of mine is currently serving as an S/O on the classic with QF. Progression has been a little stunted waiting for the final retirement of the fleet. And like most motivated pilots he is becoming a little anxious for another window seat. But consider this, his Gross salary last year was approx $135K! And he is certainly not the highest paid S/O at the Rat. I'm not advocating that VOZ match QF salaries but JESUS FREAKING CHR!ST!!
So what are we really looking at here.
By the way, nice windup 2dots!
But I gotta tell you the gall in publishing such tripe certainly has me worried. I hope for the sake of VOZ that the people running the show have a better grasp of reality than what has been written above. A good friend of mine is currently serving as an S/O on the classic with QF. Progression has been a little stunted waiting for the final retirement of the fleet. And like most motivated pilots he is becoming a little anxious for another window seat. But consider this, his Gross salary last year was approx $135K! And he is certainly not the highest paid S/O at the Rat. I'm not advocating that VOZ match QF salaries but JESUS FREAKING CHR!ST!!
So what are we really looking at here.
- $53.5K P/A for an ATPL rated S/O
- You may be required to work on days off with no extra remuneration.
- The prospects of career progression is worded in terms like "Limited ability to progress", After 2-3 years "May elect to apply for a position as First Officer with Virgin Blue", After 2-3 years with Virgin Blue may elect to apply for a position as First Officer with VOZ" Bloody hell! How many times do they expect a bloke to jump through the same hoops? All with absolutely no guarentee of it even happening!
- A First Officer Salary not even on par with those in a similar position flying an aircraft with nearly half the pax (and of course we're not talking QF). Go to the EJet and you're paid 80% of the 737 salary. The reason, it's a smaller aircraft. Go to an aircraft nearly twice the size and guess what? The hipocracy alone will kill the recruitment of most competitive candidates. how many F/O's have they snagged to date? How many do they need, 70, 80?
- No guarenteed yearly salary increase. Not even for CPI! Just when you think it couldn't go any lower. And remember you will probably be in that position for a very long time.
By the way, nice windup 2dots!
Those terms and conditions are a disgrace and set a new low for tech crew in this industry. Shame on anyone who accepts them and once again ruins future remuneration and conditions for the rest of us. You're just giving all airline managements one more reason. There will always be morons who will under cut other people because they're just that - morons.
2dots - yea you're right. It's better than a PA31 salary...but did you ever stop to think that it's NOT A PA31!!!
You personify the reason why disgusting terms and conditions like that are offered. And for your information I did apply but when I received the original phone call detailing POSSIBLE conditions something similar to those published, I blantantly told them that it wasn't enough and only to proceed with my application if they improved. Maybe time to grow some balls and do the same. Unless of course you believe your knowledge and skills worth is on par with crap wages and conditions. Then by all means, people like you will be the ones crewing the aircraft.
Either way, good luck...you'll need it.
2dots - yea you're right. It's better than a PA31 salary...but did you ever stop to think that it's NOT A PA31!!!
You personify the reason why disgusting terms and conditions like that are offered. And for your information I did apply but when I received the original phone call detailing POSSIBLE conditions something similar to those published, I blantantly told them that it wasn't enough and only to proceed with my application if they improved. Maybe time to grow some balls and do the same. Unless of course you believe your knowledge and skills worth is on par with crap wages and conditions. Then by all means, people like you will be the ones crewing the aircraft.
Either way, good luck...you'll need it.
Awwrrr come on Dragun,
2dots post was surely a windup. No rational person could be that devoid of intelligence and backbone. Not to mention common sense!
Could they?
2dots post was surely a windup. No rational person could be that devoid of intelligence and backbone. Not to mention common sense!
Could they?
Funny old world mate.
My sources tell me that the aquisition of F/O's is shaping up as the most severe problem. No surprises there. It may be a case of who blinks first. If VOZ do blink (insane if they don't) then maybe the operation will have a chance. If not, I'm sure the clowns who formulated these "conditions" will find some other excuse for their failure as they chat along with everybody else in the dole queue.
My sources tell me that the aquisition of F/O's is shaping up as the most severe problem. No surprises there. It may be a case of who blinks first. If VOZ do blink (insane if they don't) then maybe the operation will have a chance. If not, I'm sure the clowns who formulated these "conditions" will find some other excuse for their failure as they chat along with everybody else in the dole queue.
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Re: Classic 747 F/O....Krusty wrote......."But consider this, his Gross salary last year was approx $135K! And he is certainly not the highest paid S/O at the Rat".
Feel very happpy for said group of pilots but just wonder what on earth is is that a Classic S/O could possibly do that is worth that sort of money? The mind boggles. That's way higher than the pay the most senior ICU nurse managers get. About the same as an MP, university professor or high school principal. Guess would be about the same as a salaried surgeon, police superintendant, a CASA FOI or a maintenance controller.
I have to say it is hard to see the public wanting to pay fares high enough to support those salary levels. Still, if the workload in the 4th seat at QF mainline is so arduous, skill intensive and technically demanding that you cannot attract pilots except at those salary levels then it has to be done.
Feel very happpy for said group of pilots but just wonder what on earth is is that a Classic S/O could possibly do that is worth that sort of money? The mind boggles. That's way higher than the pay the most senior ICU nurse managers get. About the same as an MP, university professor or high school principal. Guess would be about the same as a salaried surgeon, police superintendant, a CASA FOI or a maintenance controller.
I have to say it is hard to see the public wanting to pay fares high enough to support those salary levels. Still, if the workload in the 4th seat at QF mainline is so arduous, skill intensive and technically demanding that you cannot attract pilots except at those salary levels then it has to be done.
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It is a fact several S/O's on the 400 grossed over $200K last year. A lot of 400 S/O's are getting around $175K at the moment. QF may overpay some, but this seems to be going to the extreme in the other direction.
Also, a QF 400 F/O will get more than a VAus Captain. Most of my Cathay F/O friends get more than a QF F/O, so for them to come back is a massive pay cut. I can believe that getting qualified F/O's to leave their current employment for a pay cut is going to be hard.
Also, a QF 400 F/O will get more than a VAus Captain. Most of my Cathay F/O friends get more than a QF F/O, so for them to come back is a massive pay cut. I can believe that getting qualified F/O's to leave their current employment for a pay cut is going to be hard.
1. To the guys saying "if you don't like it don't apply, easy". GROW SOME BALLS. This is a constructive forum where our views can be heard - good views or bad. This woeful package needs feedback.
2. Like Dragun, I also told them to shove it - "the package is not commensurate with industry standard, and is way below the qualifications required and the resonsibilities of a heavy jet, long haul crew."
I would love to see on here how many guys have also told them to shove it. Any feedback please.
2. Like Dragun, I also told them to shove it - "the package is not commensurate with industry standard, and is way below the qualifications required and the resonsibilities of a heavy jet, long haul crew."
I would love to see on here how many guys have also told them to shove it. Any feedback please.
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When people say that thay GROSS a certain amout I often ask them what their GROSS salary is. Too many times they have included allowances and Super. On this basis, My best year as an FO at Ansett was $168,000!
I know that some young VB guys have liked to pad out their income in this way to make it look like they are on a huge income. It impresses the girls, too true.
Some have compared (again!) Pilot salaries to those of other skilled professions. However, although many Doctors and Nurses work long hours, they simply do not face the personal disruption to their lives that goes hand-in-glove with what we do.
We enjoy/face/endure/suffer (delete as applicable to your own circumstance) time away from home that the vast majority of workers do not face. I am aware of a Captain who was away from home on a 10 day trip when his Son was hospitalised with a life-threatening illness. Another Captain was away when his Father-in-law died. It was 2 days before he could get back to his family. How many Christmases/Birthdays/Annaversaries have been missed over the years by people who do long haul? I've lost count and I know I can never get them back.
These are some of the reasons that even S/Os should get a decent return on their commitment to the companies. We should have a component of our renumeration that relects our unavailability to our families and the personal disruption that is part of our job. I call it f$%^& around money, because it compensates us for being f$%^ed around.
I know that some young VB guys have liked to pad out their income in this way to make it look like they are on a huge income. It impresses the girls, too true.
Some have compared (again!) Pilot salaries to those of other skilled professions. However, although many Doctors and Nurses work long hours, they simply do not face the personal disruption to their lives that goes hand-in-glove with what we do.
We enjoy/face/endure/suffer (delete as applicable to your own circumstance) time away from home that the vast majority of workers do not face. I am aware of a Captain who was away from home on a 10 day trip when his Son was hospitalised with a life-threatening illness. Another Captain was away when his Father-in-law died. It was 2 days before he could get back to his family. How many Christmases/Birthdays/Annaversaries have been missed over the years by people who do long haul? I've lost count and I know I can never get them back.
These are some of the reasons that even S/Os should get a decent return on their commitment to the companies. We should have a component of our renumeration that relects our unavailability to our families and the personal disruption that is part of our job. I call it f$%^& around money, because it compensates us for being f$%^ed around.
genex,
Why on earth would you belittle someone, or a group of pilots for that matter, for earning good coin for doing a good job? I just don't understand...
Feel very happpy for said group of pilots but just wonder what on earth is is that a Classic S/O could possibly do that is worth that sort of money? The mind boggles.
Sprucegoose
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OK, based on the conditions they have set forward I'll go out on a limb and say a 'fair' wage for a Cruise F/O should be in the 85K-95K mark + super. 53K for people with 6000+ hours (and I know several with this sort of experience who signed up) is just ludicrous!
Not to mention no additional pay for working on days off!
These guys did me a favour by knocking back my application, it would have been a 'no win' decision had they have offered me a job! As it turns out, I am now on better money than their F/O's, let alone cruise F/O's and get paid handsomely for working on days off!
I suspect it will work out well for those who have accepted positions, as I can't see too many from VB wanting to jump ship!
Not to mention no additional pay for working on days off!
These guys did me a favour by knocking back my application, it would have been a 'no win' decision had they have offered me a job! As it turns out, I am now on better money than their F/O's, let alone cruise F/O's and get paid handsomely for working on days off!
I suspect it will work out well for those who have accepted positions, as I can't see too many from VB wanting to jump ship!
Surely this planned new $175k for Captains must be an error?
I assume they meant $270,000 for a Captain right
QF 744 Captains bring in about $300,000 (and that salary is generally derided globally as being low). QF 767 Captains are on $250,000 or thereabouts.
$270,000+ would thus be the (albeit low) Australian industry standard. It would also conform with the principle VB themselves used when the Embraer was introduced - pay proportional to aircraft size. On that basis if a VB Embraer Captain is on $120-140 and a 737 Captain was on about $180-200k then $270+ for the 777 would make sense by their own logic. Not a brilliant salary but within the Australian yardstick.
But $175,000 for a 777 Captain!! This is appalling and must surely be incorrect PPRuNE rumours only!
With the incumbent expense of then having to set up in Sydney (not the cheapest city in Australia) or commute (full-fare before probation ends) this would be basically impossible. Additionally you appear to have to be in SYD the day before the standby, which is itself the day before the actual duty starts (with even further accom/food expenses etc).
I suspect that if that figure is true, which I certainly hope it isn't, when the 'gloss' of flying the 777 ex-Aus wears off, the reality of ULH exhaustion with far fewer $$ in your pocket for doing the same job as your QF buddy who is earning 130k/year more (and probably working less) will leave its recipients somewhat bitter and disenfranchised.
And yes I know if you're flying a PA31 in Karratha or a DC9 in Botswana etc then 200k, 300k, 400k etc sounds good but it takes a hell of a lot of blood, sweat, tears and years to get to that level and these are still the global standard salaries when dealing with 'quality' carriers. What a nurse makes is irrelevant.
Trying to put 2,3 or 4 kids through decent schools (Milperra High isn't the best I'm told) on that salary and living in or commuting to Sydney with a mortgage (and pressured-home-life due to ULH fatigue) would be a near impossibility. It realistically would suit only somebody over 55 whose kids have left or somebody doing it for the 'beer' money, having already set themselves up elsewhere.
Of course it's all about supply and demand and the apparent reduction in Captain's salaries from an already horrible $210k to an unbelievable 175k clearly indicates there are too many Captains who will do this.
I understand some VA flight-ops staff went to the "People" department and said that at $210 they wouldn't get the pilots (or at least the right pilots). Evidently, there were the pilots out there but this new $175k figure then shows what respect the People Department had for those in Operations.
Virgin always talk about being a family, a team, and people-oriented. I fear that with this move VA will be getting off to a very bad start. The high turn-over of pilots that has blighted Virgin Blue (to the degree that it threatened/still threatens to undermine the very viability of that airline unless the attrition rate is stopped) looks set to be repeated at V Australia. Yes it's important to be fiscally prudent but at what associated detrimental cost?
What a pity.
I assume they meant $270,000 for a Captain right
QF 744 Captains bring in about $300,000 (and that salary is generally derided globally as being low). QF 767 Captains are on $250,000 or thereabouts.
$270,000+ would thus be the (albeit low) Australian industry standard. It would also conform with the principle VB themselves used when the Embraer was introduced - pay proportional to aircraft size. On that basis if a VB Embraer Captain is on $120-140 and a 737 Captain was on about $180-200k then $270+ for the 777 would make sense by their own logic. Not a brilliant salary but within the Australian yardstick.
But $175,000 for a 777 Captain!! This is appalling and must surely be incorrect PPRuNE rumours only!
With the incumbent expense of then having to set up in Sydney (not the cheapest city in Australia) or commute (full-fare before probation ends) this would be basically impossible. Additionally you appear to have to be in SYD the day before the standby, which is itself the day before the actual duty starts (with even further accom/food expenses etc).
I suspect that if that figure is true, which I certainly hope it isn't, when the 'gloss' of flying the 777 ex-Aus wears off, the reality of ULH exhaustion with far fewer $$ in your pocket for doing the same job as your QF buddy who is earning 130k/year more (and probably working less) will leave its recipients somewhat bitter and disenfranchised.
And yes I know if you're flying a PA31 in Karratha or a DC9 in Botswana etc then 200k, 300k, 400k etc sounds good but it takes a hell of a lot of blood, sweat, tears and years to get to that level and these are still the global standard salaries when dealing with 'quality' carriers. What a nurse makes is irrelevant.
Trying to put 2,3 or 4 kids through decent schools (Milperra High isn't the best I'm told) on that salary and living in or commuting to Sydney with a mortgage (and pressured-home-life due to ULH fatigue) would be a near impossibility. It realistically would suit only somebody over 55 whose kids have left or somebody doing it for the 'beer' money, having already set themselves up elsewhere.
Of course it's all about supply and demand and the apparent reduction in Captain's salaries from an already horrible $210k to an unbelievable 175k clearly indicates there are too many Captains who will do this.
I understand some VA flight-ops staff went to the "People" department and said that at $210 they wouldn't get the pilots (or at least the right pilots). Evidently, there were the pilots out there but this new $175k figure then shows what respect the People Department had for those in Operations.
Virgin always talk about being a family, a team, and people-oriented. I fear that with this move VA will be getting off to a very bad start. The high turn-over of pilots that has blighted Virgin Blue (to the degree that it threatened/still threatens to undermine the very viability of that airline unless the attrition rate is stopped) looks set to be repeated at V Australia. Yes it's important to be fiscally prudent but at what associated detrimental cost?
What a pity.
Last edited by Al E. Vator; 7th Aug 2008 at 02:38.
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Aussie dollar dropping, oil dropping a bit ( cancelled out by the aussie dollar dropping), our friends in the good 'ol US of A not being able to pay the mortgage let alone come here for a vacation and signs that we could be in for an economic kick in the guts! Who exactly are they gonna fill these a/c with?? Maybe rich mine workers looking to pick up some dirt cheap real estate stateside. Good luck to those who want to work for these dollars , just don't burn any bridges!!