Merged: 457 Visa
Thread Starter
Let me be as succint as I possibly can Tidbinbilla:
As an Aussie working O/S for a Legecy carrier ( cx ) I have no intention of coming back to work for an Aussie airline, ever
I took my skills overseas after 1989 to keep in a job. My skills were required because they couldn't get any locals to do the work, FULL STOP, end of story. I'm still here
I TOTALLY object to Non- Aussies being GIVEN 457 Visa's or other such things to come to MY country and TAKE MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS jobs.
there is absolutley no evidence that there is a shortage of SKILLED PILOT's in Aussie to do the job. YOU KNOW IT, WE KNOW IT
so to all those foreign Pilot's just champing at the bit to TAKE A job from my family and Friends I say................NO WAY
Get a Visa FIRST................come to Aussie.............THEN APPLY.
It's a very fair system if you care to use it.
Care to use it?
or do you want to short cut the system instead?
As an Aussie working O/S for a Legecy carrier ( cx ) I have no intention of coming back to work for an Aussie airline, ever
I took my skills overseas after 1989 to keep in a job. My skills were required because they couldn't get any locals to do the work, FULL STOP, end of story. I'm still here
I TOTALLY object to Non- Aussies being GIVEN 457 Visa's or other such things to come to MY country and TAKE MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS jobs.
there is absolutley no evidence that there is a shortage of SKILLED PILOT's in Aussie to do the job. YOU KNOW IT, WE KNOW IT
so to all those foreign Pilot's just champing at the bit to TAKE A job from my family and Friends I say................NO WAY
Get a Visa FIRST................come to Aussie.............THEN APPLY.
It's a very fair system if you care to use it.
Care to use it?
or do you want to short cut the system instead?
Moderator
Sorry Mate - had enough of you in the last thread regarding 457 Visas! 
And I don't think Tids needs your advice on Moderating threads in Dunnunda!
Not that you can see either this thread or my post!
Tail Wheel
And I don't think Tids needs your advice on Moderating threads in Dunnunda!
Not that you can see either this thread or my post!
Tail Wheel
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WHAT?
You must be kidding us TID
This is an extremely important subject effecting ALL Aussie Pilots and probably you and you sweep it under the carpet?
YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE A BETTER REASON THAN THAT FOR BANNING ACMS.
90% of us agree with him.
What happened to freedom of speech and truth in Aviation hey?
You must be kidding us TID
This is an extremely important subject effecting ALL Aussie Pilots and probably you and you sweep it under the carpet?
YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE A BETTER REASON THAN THAT FOR BANNING ACMS.
90% of us agree with him.
What happened to freedom of speech and truth in Aviation hey?
Moderator
Oh, dear........... Siamese Twins!!!!!
Tail Wheel
Tail Wheel
Moderator
Neither of the Siamese Twins, ACMS or GE90115BL2 are banned but are, for the present, excluded from this thread.
Tail Wheel
Tail Wheel
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It does not seem fair to restrict valid arguments because you don't happen to agree. In fact to not have a good blue once in a while with a mate might seem somewhat, "unAustralian".
There's too much banning going on. This isn't the same PPrune it used to be. Are you all scared of lawyers?
There's too much banning going on. This isn't the same PPrune it used to be. Are you all scared of lawyers?
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I have friends that are qualified (large quantities of jet time) and are in oz that are trying to get into one star. They cannot get a look in either through colllusion by the airlines or some other event that occured some years ago.
Either way, there are people here that can do the job, how does the govt justify the automatic giving of visas when all the resources have not been exhausted? It was only a few short months ago the airlines were denying there was a shortage, now they have cried poor and the govt have knee jerked without any research or justification and given them what they want.
There is also one undeniable fact, for 10 years (probably more but lets say 10) no airline has spent any more money on training than they legislatively had to. Now as the old grey mare is making her way slowly out the gate, the airlines move to shut it, by opening tin pot academies that are in more sh!t than a Werribee duck, MPLs and cadet programs that wont bear fruit for years.
The mining sector have realised that to get quality people they have to pay top money. How many 457 visas have the mining industry requested for their basic operations? None because they still get people by paying the right money.
Groups such as AIPA and AFAP should be putting the same amount of pressure on the govt as the airlines are and trying to stop what has already started.
Either way, there are people here that can do the job, how does the govt justify the automatic giving of visas when all the resources have not been exhausted? It was only a few short months ago the airlines were denying there was a shortage, now they have cried poor and the govt have knee jerked without any research or justification and given them what they want.
There is also one undeniable fact, for 10 years (probably more but lets say 10) no airline has spent any more money on training than they legislatively had to. Now as the old grey mare is making her way slowly out the gate, the airlines move to shut it, by opening tin pot academies that are in more sh!t than a Werribee duck, MPLs and cadet programs that wont bear fruit for years.
The mining sector have realised that to get quality people they have to pay top money. How many 457 visas have the mining industry requested for their basic operations? None because they still get people by paying the right money.
Groups such as AIPA and AFAP should be putting the same amount of pressure on the govt as the airlines are and trying to stop what has already started.
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PAF.
I think that the article quoted actually reinforces ASMS' argument. It describes REX's shortage as due to pilots LEAVING. So they used to have enough pilots, yet the question of WHY they are leaving or WHY they cant attract replacements is studiously ignored?
You continually quote dry economic theory which,, I am sure, most readers here can see through. As T&Cs have fallen to the point where a career as a pilot is not seen as desirable anymore, the result (according to your own arguments) is that T&Cs should rise until the supply and demand is balanced. What is actually happening (and this is where the real world infringes on theory) is that an attempt is being made to use 457 visas (or whatever version they are particularly called in this case) to manipulate the supply side of labour by increasing the labour pool using said visas. If you cannot see the problem with that, then further discussion is pointless.
For Kangaroo Court; if you use 457 visas to cherry pick which parts of the labour market you will manipulate, those particular professions suffer manipulation that distorts the market forces which operate in them. ie. Pilot T&Cs are artificially suppressed at the expense of aspiring/existing pilots for the gain of foreign nationals wanting to change their address (a non-economic gain). IMHO, that only exacerbates the problem, perpetuating the barriers to entry of that profession for Australians, and fails to address the cause (a symptomal solution). Ultimately, detrimental to the country on a number of levels- not the least of which is the delaying of the correction in ticket pricing (which must come sooner or later- maybe PAF can tell us why, although with the selectivity applied to theorical argument, I am not so sure).
I think that the article quoted actually reinforces ASMS' argument. It describes REX's shortage as due to pilots LEAVING. So they used to have enough pilots, yet the question of WHY they are leaving or WHY they cant attract replacements is studiously ignored?
You continually quote dry economic theory which,, I am sure, most readers here can see through. As T&Cs have fallen to the point where a career as a pilot is not seen as desirable anymore, the result (according to your own arguments) is that T&Cs should rise until the supply and demand is balanced. What is actually happening (and this is where the real world infringes on theory) is that an attempt is being made to use 457 visas (or whatever version they are particularly called in this case) to manipulate the supply side of labour by increasing the labour pool using said visas. If you cannot see the problem with that, then further discussion is pointless.
For Kangaroo Court; if you use 457 visas to cherry pick which parts of the labour market you will manipulate, those particular professions suffer manipulation that distorts the market forces which operate in them. ie. Pilot T&Cs are artificially suppressed at the expense of aspiring/existing pilots for the gain of foreign nationals wanting to change their address (a non-economic gain). IMHO, that only exacerbates the problem, perpetuating the barriers to entry of that profession for Australians, and fails to address the cause (a symptomal solution). Ultimately, detrimental to the country on a number of levels- not the least of which is the delaying of the correction in ticket pricing (which must come sooner or later- maybe PAF can tell us why, although with the selectivity applied to theorical argument, I am not so sure).
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I like your agrument also...
I don't think there are many immigrant pilots to be had with a worldwide shortage though. I am working overseas right now and we can't seem to find the "right" people either.
I don't think there are many immigrant pilots to be had with a worldwide shortage though. I am working overseas right now and we can't seem to find the "right" people either.
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That is a big part of the problem with the way these visa are being used- you WILL attract pilots, but not on economic grounds. South Africans, for example, will avail themselves of the opportunity for reasons that have nothing to do with economics, thus pure economics is not at play. The real world is like that, hey PAF?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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It has to be remembered that QANTASLink will want pilots that will fit into their operation smoothly and they will set their requirements accordingly going to great lengths to avoid being accused of discrimination. Simply because there is an Australian pilot with a CPL and 500 hours of bush flying doesn't mean that they have to take this lad ahead of a 457 with relevant type and weight and hours experience who fits the advertisement. I think that our two banned colleagues were suggesting that the Australian CPL should get first crack at the job, even if not qualified, very unrealistic.
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The basis of the problem that we face is inadequate management from past and present Government's at both Federal and State levels.
The shortage we face not only in pilots but other skills as well shows a serious lack of forward planning.
An insurance assessor on Thursday told me that within 5 years there will not be enough Panel and Smash repairs to do the work that is required in Australia.There is also a huge shortage of diesel mechanics not to mention Doctors,nurses etc.
Bringing people in on a 457 visa to work may be a short term solution to our problem but it is not the long term answer.
If we continue this way within 20 years Australia will not be able to produce anything more sophisticated than a toasted sandwich from the corner shop.
We will be a nation of consumers
The shortage we face not only in pilots but other skills as well shows a serious lack of forward planning.
An insurance assessor on Thursday told me that within 5 years there will not be enough Panel and Smash repairs to do the work that is required in Australia.There is also a huge shortage of diesel mechanics not to mention Doctors,nurses etc.
Bringing people in on a 457 visa to work may be a short term solution to our problem but it is not the long term answer.
If we continue this way within 20 years Australia will not be able to produce anything more sophisticated than a toasted sandwich from the corner shop.
We will be a nation of consumers
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This country is in a lot of trouble aviation wise (otherwise as well) it's so obvious & we all pretty much know it so I would suggest (& this is just my opinion only) whilst we self destruct that everyone hang onto what job they have & dig in, I feel we ain't seen the real effects of this total 'swept under the carpet' problem. The likes of ACMS although very direct is just an Eg. of how some pilots feel, no more no less.
The allowance of 'imports' by this Govt thru commercial pressure (the ones that own the Pollies) has effectively ruined many an industry in Oz (fruit for one) & i feel that we are heading down the same track now in our very fragile industry. Remember the likes of GD & the senior Pollies have nothing to fear their approaching the end of their careers (if where lucky), it's the ugly legacy left behind we must flounder in for many years yet.
And no I don't have an answer to all this and nobody else in here has shown likewise either, if I did have the answer I'd be richer the 'tricky dicky' !
Just my opinion obvioulsy
CW
p.s..'dodgybrothers'.....couldn't agree more with yr post, I know a few too that simply can't get in to the airlines and are currently flying very responsible jobs, yep there is no pilot shortage just a shortage of forsight!
The allowance of 'imports' by this Govt thru commercial pressure (the ones that own the Pollies) has effectively ruined many an industry in Oz (fruit for one) & i feel that we are heading down the same track now in our very fragile industry. Remember the likes of GD & the senior Pollies have nothing to fear their approaching the end of their careers (if where lucky), it's the ugly legacy left behind we must flounder in for many years yet.
And no I don't have an answer to all this and nobody else in here has shown likewise either, if I did have the answer I'd be richer the 'tricky dicky' !
Just my opinion obvioulsy
CW
p.s..'dodgybrothers'.....couldn't agree more with yr post, I know a few too that simply can't get in to the airlines and are currently flying very responsible jobs, yep there is no pilot shortage just a shortage of forsight!
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PAF. You are very adept at avoiding the reality that pilot T&Cs must rise.
If, as you say, it's a people shortage driving this issue, why then not bring in lots more people. Not PILOTS on 457 visas, just more PEOPLE? People with/without skills who can fill jobs at the 'bottom of the market'.
If there is no skills crisis, just bring in immigrants, full stop. There should be no need for 457 visas, as the market will function and provide T&Cs that will attract the right applicants at the bottom of the aviation industry (or even at a level commensurate with modern thinking ie directly into jet cockpits).
If, as you say, it's a people shortage driving this issue, why then not bring in lots more people. Not PILOTS on 457 visas, just more PEOPLE? People with/without skills who can fill jobs at the 'bottom of the market'.
If there is no skills crisis, just bring in immigrants, full stop. There should be no need for 457 visas, as the market will function and provide T&Cs that will attract the right applicants at the bottom of the aviation industry (or even at a level commensurate with modern thinking ie directly into jet cockpits).
Frozo,
This is not about protectionism. If any pilot wants to secure residency or become an Australian citizen and have legal right to work in this country then they are completely free to apply and jump through all the hoops like everyone else. Spare us the first year neo classical economic drivel. Why should airlines be able to import type rated foreigners just so they can save a few bucks on training their existing workforce? There are plenty of Autralian pilots here and overseas to fill any positions.
Parabellum,
If there are no 457 visas they will. Either that or employ one of the more experienced Aussies trying to get a look in. Non sibi sed suis.
Qantaslink would solve all their crew problems and save themselves buckets of cash if they provided a career path into mainline. Sorry mate but you reek of skygod syndrome. Howzat for provocation?
Moderators,
If you are going to ban anyone it should be Frozo. He claims to be a pilot by occupation yet clearly is not. 2000 posts from a walter mitty without a life is more than enough.
This is not about protectionism. If any pilot wants to secure residency or become an Australian citizen and have legal right to work in this country then they are completely free to apply and jump through all the hoops like everyone else. Spare us the first year neo classical economic drivel. Why should airlines be able to import type rated foreigners just so they can save a few bucks on training their existing workforce? There are plenty of Autralian pilots here and overseas to fill any positions.
Parabellum,
Simply because there is an Australian pilot with a CPL and 500 hours of bush flying doesn't mean that they have to take this lad ahead of a 457 with relevant type and weight and hours experience who fits the advertisement.
Qantaslink would solve all their crew problems and save themselves buckets of cash if they provided a career path into mainline. Sorry mate but you reek of skygod syndrome. Howzat for provocation?
Moderators,
If you are going to ban anyone it should be Frozo. He claims to be a pilot by occupation yet clearly is not. 2000 posts from a walter mitty without a life is more than enough.
Last edited by desmotronic; 26th Apr 2008 at 04:33.