Merged: 457 Visa
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With unemployment at around 4% it's not a skills shortage, it's a people shortage.
You can bend anything to your way of spin if you want to.Is the government helping by education and other means to put Australians in the jobs that matter or that they really want.
A friend of mine who lives in NSW has a boy that wants to be a diesel mechanic.His son has to travel something like 400 km's to go to TAFE,spend a week or two then travel 400 km's back home to work where his apprenticeship is located.
He does not live out the back of Bourke but on the coast not far from the Queensland border not far from major regional centres.It is insane that there is no TAFE college closer than that.However,cost cutting from successive governments have put paid to that.
Perhaps it is also time we look at the financial requirments for Uni both from the students side and of the uni's operational side.The uni's are allowing students to have a lower HSC pass mark if they pay up front because they need the money and then cashed up overseas students grab a spot that could have gone to an Australian.
Population does have an impact but education and Government assistance has a bigger impact.With Australian airlines sending aircraft overseas for anything from maintenance to a spray of paint it is not difficult to see the demand for trades and skilled people in Australia diminishing.
The 457 Visa solution is short term but another approach is needed for the longer term.
PAF,maybe another solution is to encourage people to have more children if we have a people shortage.
Other countries look 20 years or more down the track but all our politicians seem to do is look no further than the next election.
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..........................Other countries look 20 years or more down the track but all our politicians seem to do is look no further than the next election.
That is so true 'RedTBar' Well said.
We Australians are clever people & passionate but we need strong leadership in all area's of social & economic structure, that takes time & foresight to put into place & complete. Probably longer than any one Govt would be in power for. For this country to be prosperous we will have to hurt, hurt a lot more tha we are now I believe.
CW
That is so true 'RedTBar' Well said.
We Australians are clever people & passionate but we need strong leadership in all area's of social & economic structure, that takes time & foresight to put into place & complete. Probably longer than any one Govt would be in power for. For this country to be prosperous we will have to hurt, hurt a lot more tha we are now I believe.
CW
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Why do you guys/gals even bother responding to Frozo (Troll IMHO)
I can not see how wanting Australian Pilot jobs to go to Australian Pilots is such an issue.
If these Aviation companies are trying to fight presenting sustainable market rate packages to qualified Australians, stuff em, let them go broke.
Where has ones sense of national pride gone ?, we should not under any circumstance be importing skilled labour into Australia whilst ever there is a willing and able Australian ( by birth or immigration ) to do the job.
Same should go for foreign aid, why should we send our money overseas in the form of foriegn aid when Australians are sleeping on the street.
I can not see how wanting Australian Pilot jobs to go to Australian Pilots is such an issue.
If these Aviation companies are trying to fight presenting sustainable market rate packages to qualified Australians, stuff em, let them go broke.
Where has ones sense of national pride gone ?, we should not under any circumstance be importing skilled labour into Australia whilst ever there is a willing and able Australian ( by birth or immigration ) to do the job.
Same should go for foreign aid, why should we send our money overseas in the form of foriegn aid when Australians are sleeping on the street.
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A few years back I was on the EBA committee for a National company.
The company's operation had been having difficulties securing new pilots due to pay and conditions, so to help retain and secure new pilots we submitted a pay claim.
The result, company imported pilots who wanted to gain Australian Visa's and the pilot group got screwed over.
I don't have a problem with importing labour if they do it for the same money and it doesn't impinge on the pay and conditions of current employees.
I think the government should freeze company 457 applications if that company is undergoing EBA negs.
The company's operation had been having difficulties securing new pilots due to pay and conditions, so to help retain and secure new pilots we submitted a pay claim.
The result, company imported pilots who wanted to gain Australian Visa's and the pilot group got screwed over.
I don't have a problem with importing labour if they do it for the same money and it doesn't impinge on the pay and conditions of current employees.
I think the government should freeze company 457 applications if that company is undergoing EBA negs.
PAF - you sound like an academic. Chock full of theory - of no practical use. Get rid of your military blankie.
I agree Capt. Wally - the Summit 2020 is barely the future. Blink and we're there. I'd be more inclined to go for the 2050 or 2100 Summit - more time to discuss what to talk about.
I agree Capt. Wally - the Summit 2020 is barely the future. Blink and we're there. I'd be more inclined to go for the 2050 or 2100 Summit - more time to discuss what to talk about.
Last edited by Chronic Snoozer; 26th Apr 2008 at 06:16.
military pilot
Frozo,
Simple classical theory is only one very narrow way to look at the labour market. There is also large bodies of work on human relations, industrial democracy, judicial and statutory determinism, technological determinism, bargaining and importantly distribution of power and conflict resolution. You can check out Marxist theory on the labour market, he had a few ideas too.
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Okay, before this thread crashes and burns, I'll give up being subtle and state the obvious:
A large part of the community made it clear recently that putting up with reduced pay & conditions in the name of "shareholder value" should not be a national goal.
Too often Australians, maybe because we don't have a feverish nationalism, accept the practices of other countries, whilst pretending there is such a thing as a "level playing field".
Sure, other countries will, at times, beg for Australians to join their workforce ... and at other times, or in other countries, Australians won't be given the time of day.
But that doesn't mean we can't employ fully qualified Australians first - especially when the only reason he's not getting a look-in is that he wants at least a slight semblance of fairness, and perhaps the maintenance of decent conditions.
I've seen it in other professions too... open the floodgates, the shareholders love it for the short term ... then, the inevitable overcapacity and plunging conditions.
{You'll note however, that some, such as the legal profession, are smart enough to regulate and control supply ... they don't bow to nonsensical arguments about economic rationalism and the level bloody playingfield!}
And I think a few of us recall that the aviation industry is bloody notorious for its cycles, peaks and troughs. Crying wolf in the name of a few cents higher dividend (and a few mil extra for GD) may be so beautifully timed as to coincide with a global downturn - and what will that mean?
And yes ... those crying about the "lack" of pilots could spend (invest) a few cents per share now in improving the training situation (including cost) and get a better long-term result.
Or maybe outfits like ASA do have the right idea when they gallivant off around the world, rather than looking in their own backyard and actually spending on training, and trying not to completely alienate their bemusingly loyal workforce!
... or, of course, we could once again join the race to the bottom! Sure suits the CEOs ... I feel another big bonus coming on!
A large part of the community made it clear recently that putting up with reduced pay & conditions in the name of "shareholder value" should not be a national goal.
Too often Australians, maybe because we don't have a feverish nationalism, accept the practices of other countries, whilst pretending there is such a thing as a "level playing field".
Sure, other countries will, at times, beg for Australians to join their workforce ... and at other times, or in other countries, Australians won't be given the time of day.
But that doesn't mean we can't employ fully qualified Australians first - especially when the only reason he's not getting a look-in is that he wants at least a slight semblance of fairness, and perhaps the maintenance of decent conditions.
I've seen it in other professions too... open the floodgates, the shareholders love it for the short term ... then, the inevitable overcapacity and plunging conditions.
{You'll note however, that some, such as the legal profession, are smart enough to regulate and control supply ... they don't bow to nonsensical arguments about economic rationalism and the level bloody playingfield!}
And I think a few of us recall that the aviation industry is bloody notorious for its cycles, peaks and troughs. Crying wolf in the name of a few cents higher dividend (and a few mil extra for GD) may be so beautifully timed as to coincide with a global downturn - and what will that mean?
And yes ... those crying about the "lack" of pilots could spend (invest) a few cents per share now in improving the training situation (including cost) and get a better long-term result.
Or maybe outfits like ASA do have the right idea when they gallivant off around the world, rather than looking in their own backyard and actually spending on training, and trying not to completely alienate their bemusingly loyal workforce!
... or, of course, we could once again join the race to the bottom! Sure suits the CEOs ... I feel another big bonus coming on!
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Ferris, thanks for your first couple of responses, very insightful. You can call it a skills shortage or a people shortage but if you look at the jobs generation Z want to do I don't think flying jets is up there. There are no doubt many reasons for this but T & C's would be a significant part of it.To address the problem by reducing T & C's seems a rather strange way to attract newcomers and this has happened recently with a number of the advocates of 457's.
The problem with 457's as others have pointed out is they are generally a transient group, they may not like it here and leave, may move jobs within the country or chase bigger dollars in the next shortage hotspot. Either way your best way of gaining and retaining a skilled workforce is to use people who live where they work and pay them enough to not want to go elsewhere and have a lifestyle that they would like.
The problem with 457's as others have pointed out is they are generally a transient group, they may not like it here and leave, may move jobs within the country or chase bigger dollars in the next shortage hotspot. Either way your best way of gaining and retaining a skilled workforce is to use people who live where they work and pay them enough to not want to go elsewhere and have a lifestyle that they would like.
VOTE 1 DODGYBROTHERS representative of Australian Pilots.
ps.Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower, I really like your thinking as well mate but dodgy beat you to the 'submit reply' and I can personally vouch that he is a top bloke.
ps.Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower, I really like your thinking as well mate but dodgy beat you to the 'submit reply' and I can personally vouch that he is a top bloke.
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If they are recruiting in South Africa and offering a 475 visa you can bet on few, if any, ever going back to SA. 90% will be New Australians within a few years.
Money
Yo...
Money. Yep, pilots want it, management wants it, shareholders want it..
And whoever has the power gets the money.
The government's position (justified by the best economic theory available) is that anything that prevents wage increases is good as that prevents inflation, whether it be pilot's wages or plumber's wages. So, there is little scope for writing to your MP about the issue, although try it and see what sort of concise reply you get.
Should companies be concerned about pilot turnover and pilot shortages ? Of course - the more of both the better, folks !
Turnover allows the pilot's next company to offer him/her a B scale or similar package; lack of turnover prevents this opportunity plus creates a more cohesive pilot group, and you don't want those outcomes as that would prevent the lowering of the benchmark for the entire "industry".
Shortages are what appear in a market at A PRICE, as someone pointed out, but the low number of purchasers allows the perception of a shortage at ANY price. The fix is importing labour, increasing supply, and clearing the market at a lower, lower price !
So there ya go; 457 visas - good for the industry, good for the shareholders, and good for Australia. So, back to the first paragraph; who has the power ? And who's going to get the money ? And who does it (the plumbing trade, I mean) because the just love it ?
Me, cynical ?? Never !
xx The Zone.
Money. Yep, pilots want it, management wants it, shareholders want it..
And whoever has the power gets the money.
The government's position (justified by the best economic theory available) is that anything that prevents wage increases is good as that prevents inflation, whether it be pilot's wages or plumber's wages. So, there is little scope for writing to your MP about the issue, although try it and see what sort of concise reply you get.
Should companies be concerned about pilot turnover and pilot shortages ? Of course - the more of both the better, folks !
Turnover allows the pilot's next company to offer him/her a B scale or similar package; lack of turnover prevents this opportunity plus creates a more cohesive pilot group, and you don't want those outcomes as that would prevent the lowering of the benchmark for the entire "industry".
Shortages are what appear in a market at A PRICE, as someone pointed out, but the low number of purchasers allows the perception of a shortage at ANY price. The fix is importing labour, increasing supply, and clearing the market at a lower, lower price !
So there ya go; 457 visas - good for the industry, good for the shareholders, and good for Australia. So, back to the first paragraph; who has the power ? And who's going to get the money ? And who does it (the plumbing trade, I mean) because the just love it ?
Me, cynical ?? Never !
xx The Zone.
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I've just been gazing into my crystal ball here.
Today: say about 40 years from now.(Typical)
ALL pilots currently flying where trained thru the new system at the time (2008) MPL & Cadetship. They are all on low wages, work for Co's with shocking T&C's not unlike slave labour camps way back in WW2(current population only ever read about that one) & fly A/C that are superior in techno stuff to the point where the pilots (now actually called system minders) are slowly being removed as they are technically no longer required.
All sounds fanciful I know, but back at the start of the 19th Century flight itself sounded pretty much the same to!
What I believe we are seeing now these days is the 'cross-over' period where we have the old (current experienced pilots) who came up thru the ranks the traditional way & are used to having a structured career path & being paid for it. And now the new pilots (MPL & Cadets for Eg.) who are entering this field a different way because the world as we know it is changing know no difference, & are the future. Like that saying in the film "Howard Hughes"..................."the way of the future", enter the likes of GD & his 'in the pocket Pollies' !
Food for thought, but for now we must continue the pressure the best way we can until that future is with us by making sure the boys at home are 'fed' first! It's a cruel world, survival of the fittest in the animal kingdom is the single most important gene that makes up all of us!
Personal opinion only as usual
CW
Today: say about 40 years from now.(Typical)
ALL pilots currently flying where trained thru the new system at the time (2008) MPL & Cadetship. They are all on low wages, work for Co's with shocking T&C's not unlike slave labour camps way back in WW2(current population only ever read about that one) & fly A/C that are superior in techno stuff to the point where the pilots (now actually called system minders) are slowly being removed as they are technically no longer required.
All sounds fanciful I know, but back at the start of the 19th Century flight itself sounded pretty much the same to!
What I believe we are seeing now these days is the 'cross-over' period where we have the old (current experienced pilots) who came up thru the ranks the traditional way & are used to having a structured career path & being paid for it. And now the new pilots (MPL & Cadets for Eg.) who are entering this field a different way because the world as we know it is changing know no difference, & are the future. Like that saying in the film "Howard Hughes"..................."the way of the future", enter the likes of GD & his 'in the pocket Pollies' !
Food for thought, but for now we must continue the pressure the best way we can until that future is with us by making sure the boys at home are 'fed' first! It's a cruel world, survival of the fittest in the animal kingdom is the single most important gene that makes up all of us!
Personal opinion only as usual
CW
What a joke , there is many guys overseas who could take all the pilot positions in Aus. At the moment not enough are coming home , so what are the airlnes supposed to do, all the guys i know who want to go home are doing so the pay is much better in Aus than the ME and asia , if you dont come home now you probably never will so the 457 visas will be used for jobs that you could have had.
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Are the real facts known?
Maybe those who want the jobs with Australian airlines should go to govt job search agencies. That way many people would learn more about the real situation.
