What will become of REX
CATA have recieved their first 2 warriors up and Mangalore with 3 more and a glass cockpit Seminole being assembled in a hangar at MB. They should be starting flying training next week.
The cadets seem like a fairly switched on group and should do well. Though they might have to spend some time in Pelair first.
Wish them all the best and safe flying.
The cadets seem like a fairly switched on group and should do well. Though they might have to spend some time in Pelair first.
Wish them all the best and safe flying.
Why Pelair first?
Is the flying less demanding? I would think not.
Is the demand for F/O's greater across the road?
Remember, these cadets are due to graduate in July, and they haven't even logged a minute! As switched on as they may be, It will be a long time before they see the control seat of an airliner. Also, who is going to pick up the tab for board and lodgings past their original graduation date? Is Rex going to provide extra accommodation space for sucessive courses?
My best guess Jan 09 at the earliest. Anyone like to take bets?
Is the flying less demanding? I would think not.
Is the demand for F/O's greater across the road?
Remember, these cadets are due to graduate in July, and they haven't even logged a minute! As switched on as they may be, It will be a long time before they see the control seat of an airliner. Also, who is going to pick up the tab for board and lodgings past their original graduation date? Is Rex going to provide extra accommodation space for sucessive courses?
My best guess Jan 09 at the earliest. Anyone like to take bets?
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 3rd Apr 2008 at 20:23.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: OZ
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good point Krusty 34. "why Pelair first?" Anyone like to take bets on when the first hull loss will occur? Where playing with fire here. Some things can't be rushed, experience can't be 'bought' or rushed.
F
F
flyitboy...........
Low time F/Os have been put into the right hand seat of bigger and more complex aircraft than SAABs for a long time flyitboy, but as far as
I'm aware, there's been no noticeable increase in hull losses as a result.
I'm just curious to know exactly what you're trying to suggest?
Anyone like to take bets on when the first hull loss will occur?
I'm aware, there's been no noticeable increase in hull losses as a result.
I'm just curious to know exactly what you're trying to suggest?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: deepest darkest recess of your mind
Posts: 1,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think he's suggesting it may not be long before there is a loss. You have to admit, those low time F/O's you speak of nearly always have an experienced Captain beside them. This may well not be the case here anymore, judging by the way the experienced Captains and trainers are jumping ship. That is the real issue to come, I would suggest.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: OZ
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"PM" finally a word with some sense to it
Let's face it you can fly all regional planes with a monkey (no offence to the monkies) in the R/H seat,(2 crew are for safety reasons, like having two engines, like having two A/H's, not operational ones) but when that monkey is being supervised by a low time Capt (because the airlines have little choice ) then there in lies my reasoning as per "PM's" words.
F
Let's face it you can fly all regional planes with a monkey (no offence to the monkies) in the R/H seat,(2 crew are for safety reasons, like having two engines, like having two A/H's, not operational ones) but when that monkey is being supervised by a low time Capt (because the airlines have little choice ) then there in lies my reasoning as per "PM's" words.
F
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La La land
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In fact further in reference to my previous may I direct you to:
From Febuary 2008: posted by "flyitboy"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi guys
New to all this & read with much interest. I've read a few wx forecasts & they seem to a newbie to be veey difficlut at times to decipher.
Am keen to learn all. Keep the good explanations up Tnxs
F
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And now our little fly it boy expert sees fit to impart his words of widsom on this thread to state-
"Let's face it you can fly all regional planes with a monkey (no offence to the monkies) in the R/H seat,(2 crew are for safety reasons, like having two engines, like having two A/H's, not operational ones) but when that monkey is being supervised by a low time Capt (because the airlines have little choice )"
Please Mr flyitboy, refrain from degenerating mine and others hard earned qualifications, experience and knowledge by sprogging (increasingly I may add) your unfounded, unqualified, useless and self serving opinions on these forums.
Cheers
La la
From Febuary 2008: posted by "flyitboy"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi guys
New to all this & read with much interest. I've read a few wx forecasts & they seem to a newbie to be veey difficlut at times to decipher.
Am keen to learn all. Keep the good explanations up Tnxs
F
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And now our little fly it boy expert sees fit to impart his words of widsom on this thread to state-
"Let's face it you can fly all regional planes with a monkey (no offence to the monkies) in the R/H seat,(2 crew are for safety reasons, like having two engines, like having two A/H's, not operational ones) but when that monkey is being supervised by a low time Capt (because the airlines have little choice )"
Please Mr flyitboy, refrain from degenerating mine and others hard earned qualifications, experience and knowledge by sprogging (increasingly I may add) your unfounded, unqualified, useless and self serving opinions on these forums.
Cheers
La la
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm wondering what will happen to the likes of Pelair and Airlink (if Rex goes belly up). How are those guys and gals going now?
How do they fill crew positions when the bigger guys can't fill theirs?
10-4
How do they fill crew positions when the bigger guys can't fill theirs?
10-4
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: australia
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's face it you can fly all regional planes with a monkey (no offence to the monkies) in the R/H seat,(2 crew are for safety reasons, like having two engines, like having two A/H's, not operational ones) but when that monkey is being supervised by a low time Capt (because the airlines have little choice ) then there in lies my reasoning
Very true Astro,
and during the checking process at REX the "knife" is particularily sharp when it comes to command candidates. But a good performance on the day doesn't necessarily make up for a real lack of experience on either type and/or the operation. Commands at REX are now running at less than 8 months! I've got in excess of 5000 hours on type, and I'm still finding things that I haven't seen before!
God willing, the total experience level in a REX cockpit of less than a year will not lead to an incident or worse. A situation that REX management are apparently comfortable with!
and during the checking process at REX the "knife" is particularily sharp when it comes to command candidates. But a good performance on the day doesn't necessarily make up for a real lack of experience on either type and/or the operation. Commands at REX are now running at less than 8 months! I've got in excess of 5000 hours on type, and I'm still finding things that I haven't seen before!
God willing, the total experience level in a REX cockpit of less than a year will not lead to an incident or worse. A situation that REX management are apparently comfortable with!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a house
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
God willing, the total experience level in a REX cockpit of less than a year will not lead to an incident or worse.
Which takes me back to another thread that I replied to and got ridiculed about (not to dwell on it however). The combined age of pilots in the cockpit is in some cases very low. It is does not mean that they are incompetent-they may be extremely skilled pilots. But regardless of how crazy the general public can be (and I've seen some unbelievable behaviour), they are now well aware that there are younger pilots flying the line.
Having tallent and knowledge is great, however experience counts for a lot as well.
Last edited by tenfouroldmate; 3rd Apr 2008 at 22:32. Reason: typo
K34........
Re the perceptions of the (pending??) lack of total experience in a REX cockpit which sees to be:
That's probably a pretty fair call KRUSTY , but I don't think that CASA would be at the same level of 'comfort' as REX management presently appear to be at. Particularly when it (CASA) is no doubt very carefully considering REXs obligations under Section 28BE and 28BF of the Act, as follows (bold/underlining is my emphasis):
28BE Duty to exercise care and diligence
(1) The holder of an AOC must at all times take all reasonable steps to ensure that every activity covered by the AOC, and everything done in connection with such an activity, is done with a reasonable degree of care and diligence.
(2) If the holder is a body having legal personality, each of its directors must also take the steps specified in subsection (1).
(3) It is evidence of a failure by a body and its directors to comply with this section if an act covered by this section is done [U without a reasonable degree of care and diligence[/U] mainly because of:
(a) inadequate corporate management
, control or supervision of the conduct of any of the body’s directors , servants or agents; or
(b) failure to provide adequate systems for communicating relevant information to relevant people in the body.
(4) No action lies, for damages or compensation, in respect of contravention of this section.
(5) This section does not affect any duty imposed by, or under, any other law of the Commonwealth, or of a State or Territory, or under the common law .
AND............
28BF Organisation, personnel etc.
(1) The holder of an AOC must at all times maintain an appropriate organisation, with a sufficient number of appropriately qualified personnel and a sound and effective management structure, having regard to the nature of the operations covered by the AOC.
(2) The holder must establish and maintain any supervisory positions in the organisation, or in any training and checking organisation established as part of it, that CASA directs, having regard to the nature of the operations covered by the AOC.
Some pretty strong 'catch-all' provisions in that lot I'd say!
So, with the benefit of hindsight of the circumstances involving flight crew (in)experience in a recent and VERY bad accident involving LC RPT operations, I'd strongly suspect that (despite flyitboy's 'wild' assertions) CASA will definitely be stepping in and taking action a l-o-n-g time before it gets to the stage where inexperience in REX cockpits could/may lead to an accident.
Re the perceptions of the (pending??) lack of total experience in a REX cockpit which sees to be:
A situation that REX management are apparently comfortable with!
, but I don't think that CASA would be at the same level of 'comfort' as REX management presently appear to be at. Particularly when it (CASA) is no doubt very carefully considering REXs obligations under Section 28BE and 28BF of the Act, as follows (bold/underlining is my emphasis):28BE Duty to exercise care and diligence
(1) The holder of an AOC must at all times take all reasonable steps to ensure that every activity covered by the AOC, and everything done in connection with such an activity, is done with a reasonable degree of care and diligence.
(2) If the holder is a body having legal personality, each of its directors must also take the steps specified in subsection (1).
(3) It is evidence of a failure by a body and its directors to comply with this section if an act covered by this section is done [U without a reasonable degree of care and diligence[/U] mainly because of:
(a) inadequate corporate management
, control or supervision of the conduct of any of the body’s directors , servants or agents; or(b) failure to provide adequate systems for communicating relevant information to relevant people in the body.
(4) No action lies, for damages or compensation, in respect of contravention of this section.
(5) This section does not affect any duty imposed by, or under, any other law of the Commonwealth, or of a State or Territory, or under the common law .
AND............
28BF Organisation, personnel etc.
(1) The holder of an AOC must at all times maintain an appropriate organisation, with a sufficient number of appropriately qualified personnel
and a sound and effective management structure, having regard to the nature of the operations covered by the AOC. (2) The holder must establish and maintain any supervisory positions in the organisation, or in any training and checking organisation established as part of it, that CASA directs, having regard to the nature of the operations covered by the AOC.
Some pretty strong 'catch-all' provisions in that lot I'd say!
So, with the benefit of hindsight of the circumstances involving flight crew (in)experience in a recent and VERY bad accident involving LC RPT operations, I'd strongly suspect that (despite flyitboy's 'wild' assertions) CASA will definitely be stepping in and taking action a l-o-n-g time before it gets to the stage where inexperience in REX cockpits could/may lead to an accident.
Last edited by SIUYA; 3rd Apr 2008 at 23:35.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"So, with the benefit of hindsight of the circumstances involving flight crew (in)experience in a recent and VERY bad accident involving LC RPT operations, I'd strongly suspect that (despite flyitboy's 'wild' assertions) CASA will definitely be stepping in and taking action a l-o-n-g time before it gets to the stage where inexperience in REX cockpits could/may lead to an accident."
SIUYA you give CASA way too much credit. They can't even stomp out the shifty ops in GA let alone have an impact on high capacity RPT operators.
Exactly who carried the can for that event? Yup the one guy who couldn't really say much in his own defense. The operators responsible for the operation, the sale of the tickets, and those who fostered the culture that led to the inevitable.. Charges were laid against... anyone... Bueller...
Don't hold your breath waiting for a bureaucrat to stick their neck out.
Kingswood
SIUYA you give CASA way too much credit. They can't even stomp out the shifty ops in GA let alone have an impact on high capacity RPT operators.
Exactly who carried the can for that event? Yup the one guy who couldn't really say much in his own defense. The operators responsible for the operation, the sale of the tickets, and those who fostered the culture that led to the inevitable.. Charges were laid against... anyone... Bueller...
Don't hold your breath waiting for a bureaucrat to stick their neck out.
Kingswood
Kingswood..........
Good call, and I agree with the sentiments you express.
But the bureaucrats can't keep hiding forever, and I reckon there'll be a very bloody big tar and feathering party for the bureaucrats involved up in Canberra if/when there's another similar accident!
Good call, and I agree with the sentiments you express.
But the bureaucrats can't keep hiding forever, and I reckon there'll be a very bloody big tar and feathering party for the bureaucrats involved up in Canberra if/when there's another similar accident!
You'd hope they would SIUYA. Although as long as the crew occupying the seats at the front of the aircraft meet at least the bare minimum requirements, I'm not sure just how much CASA can do.
The arguement of experience vs advanced initial training has been going on for years. By all accounts, some large Jet operators have sucessfully gone down this path in one form or another. Of course REX is not a large Jet operator, and the operating conditions can be quite dissimilar.
Years ago I worked for an operator that was of the opinion that as long as the crew met the minimum requirements, then there was no problem. That particular company I must say had very little in the way of formalised surveilance of it's crews, and the CAA at the time appeared equally blase' with regard to just how dangerous it can be out there. Some of the pilots were diligent and conciencious professionals. some not so. The travelling public were litterally playing Russian roulette and didn't even know it! One cold, dark and particularily nasty winters evening one of the not so dilligent captains made an error and 7 people didn't go home!
I'm not for one minute saying that REX are anything but 100% complient with their check and training obligations, but the acceptance of the bare minimum as being acceptable rather than the retention of experience, does give one food for thought.
The arguement of experience vs advanced initial training has been going on for years. By all accounts, some large Jet operators have sucessfully gone down this path in one form or another. Of course REX is not a large Jet operator, and the operating conditions can be quite dissimilar.
Years ago I worked for an operator that was of the opinion that as long as the crew met the minimum requirements, then there was no problem. That particular company I must say had very little in the way of formalised surveilance of it's crews, and the CAA at the time appeared equally blase' with regard to just how dangerous it can be out there. Some of the pilots were diligent and conciencious professionals. some not so. The travelling public were litterally playing Russian roulette and didn't even know it! One cold, dark and particularily nasty winters evening one of the not so dilligent captains made an error and 7 people didn't go home!
I'm not for one minute saying that REX are anything but 100% complient with their check and training obligations, but the acceptance of the bare minimum as being acceptable rather than the retention of experience, does give one food for thought.
KRUSTY..........
Too true my friend, and that's the dilemma of the regulations, isn't it? That is, they're the MINIMUM acceptable standards. So, as you correctly point out:
CASA please take note.
Too true my friend, and that's the dilemma of the regulations, isn't it? That is, they're the MINIMUM acceptable standards. So, as you correctly point out:
...the acceptance of the bare minimum as being acceptable rather than the retention of experience, does give one food for thought.
